Saints stand by Richo

[rodgerfox]

ToT is spot on. Anytime management starts blaming the employees instead of evaluating their own performance you’re on a slippery slope to even worse performance. If management does want to address issues with employees....i.e. coaches / administrators wanting to address issues with players, then keep it in house. Don’t publicly belittle those who work for you. Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if various players came out and publicly said the coaching is sub-standard and administrators are protecting mediocrity. How would that look? Like a club in open revolt. But it seems Lethlean and Richardson at least think they can publicly belittle the playing group as though that’s somehow going to make them better players. They are a disaster, compounding their incompetence with blaming and finger pointing.

To be fair, this place would go into meltdown if the club didn't point the finger at someone, or something at least!

This lynch mob needs someone to blame!!

[Cairnsman]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

[happy feet]

This team needs a couple of tough nuts who never say die. When I think back to the team in the late 70's and early 80's, we were beaten often but we were hard at the contest. We need a Steven Baker type, another Lenny Hayes please - rock hard at the contest and never gave in, a big mobile and hardy ruckman who can protect the smaller players. And unfortunately we need a new coach. After the first quarter I said to SWMBO, just watch Bevo out coach AR, and that's what happened.

[saynta]

The minute you detect the management ranks deflecting all responsibility on to the employees, you know you’re f***ed!

‘Lethers’ isn’t a hard man, he’s a spiv from HQ come to shore up mediocrity, and protect the hierarchy from accountability.


Come the lawyers from HQ, come the decline. Finnis and Lethlean? Both Lawyers.

What utter crap. The post is beneath you TOT.

ToT is spot on. Anytime management starts blaming the employees instead of evaluating their own performance you’re on a slippery slope to even worse performance. If management does want to address issues with employees....i.e. coaches / administrators wanting to address issues with players, then keep it in house. Don’t publicly belittle those who work for you. Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if various players came out and publicly said the coaching is sub-standard and administrators are protecting mediocrity. How would that look? Like a club in open revolt. But it seems Lethlean and Richardson at least think they can publicly belittle the playing group as though that’s somehow going to make them better players. They are a disaster, compounding their incompetence with blaming and finger pointing.

Not spot on at all. It was and is a crap post. But hey, stick up for you mates and sink the boot into the club, if it makes you feel better.

Even Ross said the players were dead in the water after they stopped competing.

[Scollop]

On field leadership????????.?

The person who should be driving that is the head coach

Five f****** years ago when Richo was appointed why didn't he rotate the captaincy? There is perhaps a lack of f****** leadership because the head coach and the f****** footy department let it get that way!!!!!!!!,

I don't agree with this. Leadership on the ground during play should be from the leadership group. This is to ensure that the plan is being executed. It includes coaching or direct instruction depending on who they are addressing and their experience. Hodge does this perfectly. It means Captain Geary needs to abandon his defence role, switch with another player and get himself up the ground at times to make a difference. All good game leaders make that call. All are visibly active in their role as captain to ensure other players are accountable for their role. Roo has said on Foxtel that he had no issue being direct to players at times when they needed it. We need to toughen up and start directing when players aren't providing the effort to meet the team game plan.

All the remainder are basically soldiers with differing skill sets. They should know their roles and be accountable in terms of their effort and team work plus execution.


The coach should see the bigger picture and decide if the plan needs change (i.e. Plan B) or roles need changing to ensure the team is achieving what it set out to do. In quarter 3 yesterday, Geary needed to be all over those not putting in the effort or not supporting the team. If he's unable to motivation the changes he needs to get the coaches to change up the plan if they haven't already acted on that. The coaches cannot be modifying the game plan continuously as the team loses focus on what's required. In general if the team isn't capable of stopping the rut then he should be rolling out the changes and considering how those weaknesses are to be resolved next week. That's what I look for from Richos comments and sorry I don't always get the idea that we have the strength of valour to execute the plan, modify the plan when the opposition is different in ensuing weeks.

More effort needed requires change, initially by the leadership group for accountability feedback then by coach/player manager changes. It needs proactive instruction to the soldiers. I don't get the visible feedback in games that the team are doing the communication needed for change. It doesn't take long and the game is lost unless everyone is proactive when KPI's aren't met.

Yes. No problem with all of that in theory, but who sets the standard; the coach or the captain? Think about it. The actions of the coach off field and the respect and hardness and self assessment starts at the top. The belief that the coach instills in all the players and in all the leadership group cannot be underestimated. Leaders are not just born, they grow into their role with education and support from coaches and other leaders.

No one has responded to one of the most profound posts I have read on here regarding Richo and his overall belief in his players. If true ( and I have feeling that it is a genuine post because it comes from a poster who has always been fair and rational throughout the years ) it is no wonder that Richo has lost the players. Here it is again ;


Post by Devilhead » 05 Aug 2018, 22:44

Due to my current location I only get to see a couple of games a year and one of those games this year was the infamous Round 2 North game

On arrival to Etihad I was pumped expecting at least a 6 goal win then I met a mate who has some inside knowledge of the inner workings at the club and he told me in no uncertain terms that Richo did not hold out much hope for the current playing group and was seriously worried about the future going forward

Obviously I was a little taken back by these comments consdering the previous weeks hard fought win against Brisbane and the fact we were going in as hot favourites against North and the promise shown by our younger brigade in the previous seasons

Well after watching the diabolical performance over the next 3 hours I caught up with .my mate again at the end of the game and just shook his head and said I reckon we could be in for a long few years - even I couldn't quite believe what he had told me earlier and thought the game was probably an aberration - looks like he wasn't bullshiteing at all

For sure Richo is struggling to get these guys playing consistent footy but is it him or does the problem lie within the playing group itself - maybe a couple of individuals? What has Richo seen/noticed that had him writing off this team so early in the season

[st.byron]

The minute you detect the management ranks deflecting all responsibility on to the employees, you know you’re f***ed!

‘Lethers’ isn’t a hard man, he’s a spiv from HQ come to shore up mediocrity, and protect the hierarchy from accountability.


Come the lawyers from HQ, come the decline. Finnis and Lethlean? Both Lawyers.

What utter crap. The post is beneath you TOT.

ToT is spot on. Anytime management starts blaming the employees instead of evaluating their own performance you’re on a slippery slope to even worse performance. If management does want to address issues with employees....i.e. coaches / administrators wanting to address issues with players, then keep it in house. Don’t publicly belittle those who work for you. Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if various players came out and publicly said the coaching is sub-standard and administrators are protecting mediocrity. How would that look? Like a club in open revolt. But it seems Lethlean and Richardson at least think they can publicly belittle the playing group as though that’s somehow going to make them better players. They are a disaster, compounding their incompetence with blaming and finger pointing.

Not spot on at all. It was and is a crap post. But hey, stick up for you mates and sink the boot into the club, if it makes you feel better.

Even Ross said the players were dead in the water after they stopped competing.

I’m not sticking up for my mates. The second and third sentences of your post are completely unnecessary. Just your world view of everything having to be an argument and adversarial. You could have just posted about what Seb Ross said, which I hadn’t heard. I agree with the post and am happy to have a debate with those who agree and those who don’t. I still reckon accountability for the player’s performance lies with the coach. Yes they have to bring themselves to the contest, but if they’re not motivated and dead in the water then I have to ask, why is that?

[The OtherThommo]

The players started well but lost control later when they were executing the plan well. Many weren't responsive to what was required. First bite at that should have come from Leadership on the ground. With a few goals kicked against the team the coach then must act to change up the process or a blow out occurs.
The questions are;; did leaders have impact early enough? I say it wasn't obvious. When that occurs the coaches then need to make the changes. did this happen, I don't think so. Its a mix of motivation and instruction / coaching of individuals to meet the requirement. Skills help with this but don't underrate the captains and leadership groups role in getting soldiers back in line. It didn't happen early or late in the third quarter but some minor recovery happened in the 4th quarter but it wasn't telling.
Players in the third quarter who didn't fire up after leaders and coach did they bit aren't likely to be in the next weeks team if the team is based on merit.

Was it the moment when Tom went out? Whether it was or wasn't is hardly something the coach could change himself short of pulling on the boots. The players just gave up, or as you assert, just didn't step up.

Ironically sacking the coach would send the wrong message to the playing group by not also holding them to account as part of a wider accountable organisation. It would transfer all of the responsibility for poor performances onto a head coach and that is not how modern well run clubs are managed. Sacking a coach in 70s style would set the club back even further.

The players have to work through this just as much as anyone else at the club.

One of the biggest challenges at the club right now is recruitment at this years trade table. They just have to get the players the list needs for the next few years.

The other big challenge is keeping players off the injury list.

It didn't start when Hickey got hurt, it started at the selection table. The Doggies were busted up, we knew it, and chose to alter the side to 'match up', rather than exploiting the fact they were busted, by emphasising difference.

We went in with 1 key forward with less than 10 games, and the other being 3rd forward size. We also went in with 1 ruckman, and a plan to revert to Acres, again, to 'pinch hit'. We had no Plan B, no contingencies.

Battle got knocked out early, Hickey got hurt a bit later, and Plan A, the only plan, was shot to bits.

We were able to paper over the cracks In the 1st quarter because a) Carlisle interrupted their progress so often, which also gave us the ball going back the other way, and b) they kicked for goal like we have done for most of the year.

At quarter time, they'd had around double the handballs to kicks, largely because they were struggling to find a way around Carlsile. By half time, that was back to around square. The momentum really shifted when Acres had to 'relieve' Hickey for an extended period. Roughead and Trengrove were able to present the pill to team mates, particularly at centre bounces.

Beveridge also had Roughead and Trengrove push forward and engage Carlisle, meaning not only couldn't he stop their flow, we lost out most productive rebound source from the first quarter.

So, what did Marshall do wrong? No good, no prospects, hasn't shown a bit in his half dozen games, can't compete against blokes who aren't Gawn or Jacobs, can't provide a presence forward at 201 cm, wouldn't differentiate us up against a busted up, smallish defence? Did we really need to have Armo back, so he could fill in on a HBF, and watch the likes of Toby McLean rung rings around him?

[The OtherThommo]

The minute you detect the management ranks deflecting all responsibility on to the employees, you know you’re f***ed!

‘Lethers’ isn’t a hard man, he’s a spiv from HQ come to shore up mediocrity, and protect the hierarchy from accountability.


Come the lawyers from HQ, come the decline. Finnis and Lethlean? Both Lawyers.

What utter crap. The post is beneath you TOT.

You have absolutely no idea what's beneath me, Saynta!

I have a long history of engaging with careerists, from both sides of the IR/HR divide. I've seen how they operate, and who they operate for - not all, of course. But, I've found you can generally apply 1 simple test, to discern their motivations and competence - when they start potting the employees, and absolving themselves from any and all responsibility, they're duds - they prefer simplistic trouncings, to understanding how complex organisations work, and objectively working towards solutions.

You want to demotivate employees - make loud public pronouncements they are collectively no freakin' good.

Works every time!

You're a player, a toecutter tells the world you're part of a no good bunch, who don't work hard enough, and won't accept responsibility - along comes your own 'manager', who (supposedly) works for your interests, and yours only - he tells you your 'market value' is being eroded where you are, and that there are other outfits who are interested in your services. And, he tells you those interested parties are better performed, and more harmonious organisations.

What are you gonna do? Stay?

[The OtherThommo]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

I do not buy players as a group 'turn their toes up'. Never have, hope I never do. A few, and I emphasise "few", might, from time to time, but the reasons are generally discoverable

What I do know is groups can get demoralised, lose confidence in their ability, purpose and their 'environment'.

I've spent a lot of time watching what goes on in front of and behind the ball - the 'what next and what if' method of watching games. It's not difficult to discern how well oiled the machine is, by watching players move when they're not involved in the immediate passage of play. When Lyon coached, you could see how everyone was on the same page, irrespective of talent - they knew what they were supposed to do, in most unfolding scenarios on the ground.

People bang on, a lot, about on field leadership, but many have a narrow conception of the breadth of what it is that constitutes leadership.

Last year, when we won, what, 10 or 11 games, Montagna's leadership was absolutely vital. Never ran through brickwalls to 'lead' - he organised, he watched and knew who needed to go where, whether they had the ball, or might become needed or involved.

Another facet that gets seriously effected when demoralisation sets in, is decision making, whether, again, a player is involved in a passage of play, or might become involved, or needed. The game has never been quicker, the players never fitter, and that cuts into the available time to make decisions. In groups, demoralised individuals tend to hesitate, or abrogate, and that has a compounding effect on the group's cohesion.

It's never as simple as 'these blokes chuck it in'. People are looking in the wrong places for solutions, if they think it's even close to being fixable by just getting hold of a couple of 'tough nuts'.

This list didn't arrive with little or no talent. How many 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th year players have we got that appeared more capable in the early parts of their careers, than they do in the latter parts?

What is 'management's' job, if not to design a method best able to exploit and integrate whatever talent is available, and develop that talent to continually improve the individual and collective performance.

It sure as hell won't happen if ya tell 'em they're no good, PILE ON STYLE!

[saynta]

The minute you detect the management ranks deflecting all responsibility on to the employees, you know you’re f***ed!

‘Lethers’ isn’t a hard man, he’s a spiv from HQ come to shore up mediocrity, and protect the hierarchy from accountability.


Come the lawyers from HQ, come the decline. Finnis and Lethlean? Both Lawyers.

What utter crap. The post is beneath you TOT.

ToT is spot on. Anytime management starts blaming the employees instead of evaluating their own performance you’re on a slippery slope to even worse performance. If management does want to address issues with employees....i.e. coaches / administrators wanting to address issues with players, then keep it in house. Don’t publicly belittle those who work for you. Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if various players came out and publicly said the coaching is sub-standard and administrators are protecting mediocrity. How would that look? Like a club in open revolt. But it seems Lethlean and Richardson at least think they can publicly belittle the playing group as though that’s somehow going to make them better players. They are a disaster, compounding their incompetence with blaming and finger pointing.

Not spot on at all. It was and is a crap post. But hey, stick up for you mates and sink the boot into the club, if it makes you feel better.

Even Ross said the players were dead in the water after they stopped competing.

I’m not sticking up for my mates. The second and third sentences of your post are completely unnecessary. Just your world view of everything having to be an argument and adversarial. You could have just posted about what Seb Ross said, which I hadn’t heard. I agree with the post and am happy to have a debate with those who agree and those who don’t. I still reckon accountability for the player’s performance lies with the coach. Yes they have to bring themselves to the contest, but if they’re not motivated and dead in the water then I have to ask, why is that?

More crap. You never debate you just insult. Been doing it for tears.

[st.byron]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

I do not buy players as a group 'turn their toes up'. Never have, hope I never do. A few, and I emphasise "few", might, from time to time, but the reasons are generally discoverable

What I do know is groups can get demoralised, lose confidence in their ability, purpose and their 'environment'.

I've spent a lot of time watching what goes on in front of and behind the ball - the 'what next and what if' method of watching games. It's not difficult to discern how well oiled the machine is, by watching players move when they're not involved in the immediate passage of play. When Lyon coached, you could see how everyone was on the same page, irrespective of talent - they knew what they were supposed to do, in most unfolding scenarios on the ground.

People bang on, a lot, about on field leadership, but many have a narrow conception of the breadth of what it is that constitutes leadership.

Last year, when we won, what, 10 or 11 games, Montagna's leadership was absolutely vital. Never ran through brickwalls to 'lead' - he organised, he watched and knew who needed to go where, whether they had the ball, or might become needed or involved.

Another facet that gets seriously effected when demoralisation sets in, is decision making, whether, again, a player is involved in a passage of play, or might become involved, or needed. The game has never been quicker, the players never fitter, and that cuts into the available time to make decisions. In groups, demoralised individuals tend to hesitate, or abrogate, and that has a compounding effect on the group's cohesion.

Great post ToT. This cuts to the essence of why the players should not be blamed. They are demoralised because they have a coach they don’t trust. Hard to front up week after week and play for someone you’re completely disconnected from.

[saynta]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

I do not buy players as a group 'turn their toes up'. Never have, hope I never do. A few, and I emphasise "few", might, from time to time, but the reasons are generally discoverable

What I do know is groups can get demoralised, lose confidence in their ability, purpose and their 'environment'.

I've spent a lot of time watching what goes on in front of and behind the ball - the 'what next and what if' method of watching games. It's not difficult to discern how well oiled the machine is, by watching players move when they're not involved in the immediate passage of play. When Lyon coached, you could see how everyone was on the same page, irrespective of talent - they knew what they were supposed to do, in most unfolding scenarios on the ground.

People bang on, a lot, about on field leadership, but many have a narrow conception of the breadth of what it is that constitutes leadership.

Last year, when we won, what, 10 or 11 games, Montagna's leadership was absolutely vital. Never ran through brickwalls to 'lead' - he organised, he watched and knew who needed to go where, whether they had the ball, or might become needed or involved.

Another facet that gets seriously effected when demoralisation sets in, is decision making, whether, again, a player is involved in a passage of play, or might become involved, or needed. The game has never been quicker, the players never fitter, and that cuts into the available time to make decisions. In groups, demoralised individuals tend to hesitate, or abrogate, and that has a compounding effect on the group's cohesion.

Great post ToT. This cuts to the essence of why the players should not be blamed. They are demoralised because they have a coach they don’t trust. Hard to front up week after week and play for someone you’re completely disconnected from.

How do you know that? Spoken to the players have you? The players are blaming themselves ffs, Geez whip.

[tony74]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

[saynta]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Thanks tony 74. I accept what you say. Can't say the same about some of the wrist slashing negative dim nellies on here.

They want to burn the whole place down this week, but they would backflip in an instance if we won a game or two.

[The OtherThommo]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

I do not buy players as a group 'turn their toes up'. Never have, hope I never do. A few, and I emphasise "few", might, from time to time, but the reasons are generally discoverable

What I do know is groups can get demoralised, lose confidence in their ability, purpose and their 'environment'.

I've spent a lot of time watching what goes on in front of and behind the ball - the 'what next and what if' method of watching games. It's not difficult to discern how well oiled the machine is, by watching players move when they're not involved in the immediate passage of play. When Lyon coached, you could see how everyone was on the same page, irrespective of talent - they knew what they were supposed to do, in most unfolding scenarios on the ground.

People bang on, a lot, about on field leadership, but many have a narrow conception of the breadth of what it is that constitutes leadership.

Last year, when we won, what, 10 or 11 games, Montagna's leadership was absolutely vital. Never ran through brickwalls to 'lead' - he organised, he watched and knew who needed to go where, whether they had the ball, or might become needed or involved.

Another facet that gets seriously effected when demoralisation sets in, is decision making, whether, again, a player is involved in a passage of play, or might become involved, or needed. The game has never been quicker, the players never fitter, and that cuts into the available time to make decisions. In groups, demoralised individuals tend to hesitate, or abrogate, and that has a compounding effect on the group's cohesion.

Great post ToT. This cuts to the essence of why the players should not be blamed. They are demoralised because they have a coach they don’t trust. Hard to front up week after week and play for someone you’re completely disconnected from.

How do you know that? Spoken to the players have you? The players are blaming themselves ffs, Geez whip.

You watch how they perform, that's how. Did you see how they came back onto the ground after half time? They'd clearly been inspired by the 15 odd minutes they'd just spent in the hands of the club's leadership - NOT.

Geez whip, yourself. The only way your seemingly preferred authoritarian/disciplinarian style works is if the group you're seeking to 'command' is NOT demoralised. Demoralised groups, as a group, are rarely robust enough to respond positively to occasional bollockings, let alone constantly being bollocked publicly, by a management group that is evidentially deflecting all responsibility away from themselves, and decisions they have made, and executed.

[saynta]

The players stuffed up on Saturday and putting the blame on anyone else is not holding the players to account when they deserve it.

So who's responsibility is the ongoing performance of the selected players ?

This isn't one bad week.

I agree, it's a thing, the players have turned up thier toes on multiple occassions after playing good patches of footy. The team just needs to find an answer because it's thier clear weekness and not even Alastair Clarkson being head coach will make a difference to that aspect of player control out on the ground.

And I suspect opposition clubs know they can take the game away from us quickly.

We are easily pushed aside.

Desperately need players to come off the injury list and also desperately need to recruit some additional experienced players that can show us how to role up the sleeves.

I do not buy players as a group 'turn their toes up'. Never have, hope I never do. A few, and I emphasise "few", might, from time to time, but the reasons are generally discoverable

What I do know is groups can get demoralised, lose confidence in their ability, purpose and their 'environment'.

I've spent a lot of time watching what goes on in front of and behind the ball - the 'what next and what if' method of watching games. It's not difficult to discern how well oiled the machine is, by watching players move when they're not involved in the immediate passage of play. When Lyon coached, you could see how everyone was on the same page, irrespective of talent - they knew what they were supposed to do, in most unfolding scenarios on the ground.

People bang on, a lot, about on field leadership, but many have a narrow conception of the breadth of what it is that constitutes leadership.

Last year, when we won, what, 10 or 11 games, Montagna's leadership was absolutely vital. Never ran through brickwalls to 'lead' - he organised, he watched and knew who needed to go where, whether they had the ball, or might become needed or involved.

Another facet that gets seriously effected when demoralisation sets in, is decision making, whether, again, a player is involved in a passage of play, or might become involved, or needed. The game has never been quicker, the players never fitter, and that cuts into the available time to make decisions. In groups, demoralised individuals tend to hesitate, or abrogate, and that has a compounding effect on the group's cohesion.

Great post ToT. This cuts to the essence of why the players should not be blamed. They are demoralised because they have a coach they don’t trust. Hard to front up week after week and play for someone you’re completely disconnected from.

How do you know that? Spoken to the players have you? The players are blaming themselves ffs, Geez whip.

You watch how they perform, that's how. Did you see how they came back onto the ground after half time? They'd clearly been inspired by the 15 odd minutes they'd just spent in the hands of the club's leadership - NOT.

Geez whip, yourself. The only way works is if the group you're seeking to 'command' is NOT demoralised. Demoralised groups, as a group, are rarely robust enough to respond positively to occasional bollockings, let alone constantly being bollocked publicly, by a management group that is evidentially deflecting all responsibility away from themselves, and decisions they have made, and executed.

I was talking to the other guy not you.

But then both of you like to sound important and like to let others believe they have an inside handle on the problem.

I don't accept the gist of your argument.

Your lawyer insult didn't go down to well either.

Not that I think you would care,

"your seemingly preferred authoritarian/disciplinarian style" Where did I say that?

No, don't bother answering.

[parkeysainter]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Well said T74. The entire club is at fault. Just solely blaming Richo for everything is plain cowardly, biased and dishonest. Those people know it too.

[nw7]

The players started well but lost control later when they were executing the plan well. Many weren't responsive to what was required. First bite at that should have come from Leadership on the ground. With a few goals kicked against the team the coach then must act to change up the process or a blow out occurs.
The questions are;; did leaders have impact early enough? I say it wasn't obvious. When that occurs the coaches then need to make the changes. did this happen, I don't think so. Its a mix of motivation and instruction / coaching of individuals to meet the requirement. Skills help with this but don't underrate the captains and leadership groups role in getting soldiers back in line. It didn't happen early or late in the third quarter but some minor recovery happened in the 4th quarter but it wasn't telling.
Players in the third quarter who didn't fire up after leaders and coach did they bit aren't likely to be in the next weeks team if the team is based on merit.

Was it the moment when Tom went out? Whether it was or wasn't is hardly something the coach could change himself short of pulling on the boots. The players just gave up, or as you assert, just didn't step up.

Ironically sacking the coach would send the wrong message to the playing group by not also holding them to account as part of a wider accountable organisation. It would transfer all of the responsibility for poor performances onto a head coach and that is not how modern well run clubs are managed. Sacking a coach in 70s style would set the club back even further.

The players have to work through this just as much as anyone else at the club.

One of the biggest challenges at the club right now is recruitment at this years trade table. They just have to get the players the list needs for the next few years.

The other big challenge is keeping players off the injury list.

It didn't start when Hickey got hurt, it started at the selection table. The Doggies were busted up, we knew it, and chose to alter the side to 'match up', rather than exploiting the fact they were busted, by emphasising difference.

We went in with 1 key forward with less than 10 games, and the other being 3rd forward size. We also went in with 1 ruckman, and a plan to revert to Acres, again, to 'pinch hit'. We had no Plan B, no contingencies.

Battle got knocked out early, Hickey got hurt a bit later, and Plan A, the only plan, was shot to bits.

We were able to paper over the cracks In the 1st quarter because a) Carlisle interrupted their progress so often, which also gave us the ball going back the other way, and b) they kicked for goal like we have done for most of the year.

At quarter time, they'd had around double the handballs to kicks, largely because they were struggling to find a way around Carlsile. By half time, that was back to around square. The momentum really shifted when Acres had to 'relieve' Hickey for an extended period. Roughead and Trengrove were able to present the pill to team mates, particularly at centre bounces.

Beveridge also had Roughead and Trengrove push forward and engage Carlisle, meaning not only couldn't he stop their flow, we lost out most productive rebound source from the first quarter.

So, what did Marshall do wrong? No good, no prospects, hasn't shown a bit in his half dozen games, can't compete against blokes who aren't Gawn or Jacobs, can't provide a presence forward at 201 cm, wouldn't differentiate us up against a busted up, smallish defence? Did we really need to have Armo back, so he could fill in on a HBF, and watch the likes of Toby McLean rung rings around him?

Really good post. That's exactly what happened. Marshall and Hickey playing together gave us a good mix. Our selectors thought the Dogs don't have a great ruckman so we went in with Hickey alone, the problem was that both Roughead and Trengrove are better than our 2nd Ruck by a mile when we dropped Marshall. I know they could not foresee the injuries but their thinking at the start was flawed, typical, selection has been a big issue this year.

[The OtherThommo]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Thanks tony 74. I accept what you say. Can't say the same about some of the wrist slashing negative dim nellies on here.

They want to burn the whole place down this week, but they would backflip in an instance if we won a game or two.

Get a grip man! Wanting senior management figures to accept responsibility for their actions, and the outcomes resulting from those actions, is a very long way from wanting to burn the joint down.

And, that's a 'crap post'!

I offer no opinion on whether that is beneath you, or not.

And, no, you will not see me 'back flip' if we win a game, or two. I said after Round 1 last year I thought Richardson was short of being a senior coach. The man is not a strategic thinker, and that's an imperative for being a senior coach.

[Scollop]

Due to my current location I only get to see a couple of games a year and one of those games this year was the infamous Round 2 North game

On arrival to Etihad I was pumped expecting at least a 6 goal win then I met a mate who has some inside knowledge of the inner workings at the club and he told me in no uncertain terms that Richo did not hold out much hope for the current playing group and was seriously worried about the future going forward

Obviously I was a little taken back by these comments consdering the previous weeks hard fought win against Brisbane and the fact we were going in as hot favourites against North and the promise shown by our younger brigade in the previous seasons

Well after watching the diabolical performance over the next 3 hours I caught up with .my mate again at the end of the game and just shook his head and said I reckon we could be in for a long few years - even I couldn't quite believe what he had told me earlier and thought the game was probably an aberration - looks like he wasn't bullshiteing at all

For sure Richo is struggling to get these guys playing consistent footy but is it him or does the problem lie within the playing group itself - maybe a couple of individuals? What has Richo seen/noticed that had him writing off this team so early in the season

Richo did not hold out much hope for the current playing group and was seriously worried about the future going forward

What has Richo seen/noticed that had him writing off this team so early in the season

I think Richo and some of the list management pinned their hopes on landing a big fish and getting some A grade talent into this team and have been dissapointed that over the last 2 trade periods the club has failed to land anyone. He watched the JLT games and he prepared his excuse for what he saw might be coming during the year. That is my take and is consistent with the party line of blaming the employees. Instead of working with what you have and getting the best out of them you continually deflect attention away from your poor coaching and weaknesses

[saynta]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Thanks tony 74. I accept what you say. Can't say the same about some of the wrist slashing negative dim nellies on here.

They want to burn the whole place down this week, but they would backflip in an instance if we won a game or two.

Get a grip man! Wanting senior management figures to accept responsibility for their actions, and the outcomes resulting from those actions, is a very long way from wanting to burn the joint down.

And, that's a 'crap post'!

I offer no opinion on whether that is beneath you, or not.

And, no, you will not see me 'back flip' if we win a game, or two. I said after Round 1 last year I thought Richardson was short of being a senior coach. The man is not a strategic thinker, and that's an imperative for being a senior coach.

Gat a grip? I would suggest you lossen yours. Where did I specifically mention you in the post you have quoted?

FFS, the whole forum has been riddled with negative posts for weeks if not months.

You are just the latest in a long line of disgruntled supporters venting their spleens imho.

[Linton Lodger]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Thanks Tony and you're right. However, I think supporters are starting to fear that the Coach isn't been reviewd purely because of his contract. That is alarming if true. I'm not saying Richo should be sacked, but his performance must be reviewed and any outcomes should be based on his performance, past, present and potentially. Not on the length of his contract.

I'd be content if a thorough and objective review found that there were other issues and Richo survived. Unfortunately, I fear that Lethlean is been asked to restructure around the Coach and that the review is avoiding the question of the Coach. If that's the case we have the President and CEO just covering their own arse and nothing much will improve.

[saintsRrising]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

I agree Tony74, BUT those in charge of the club at present are only giving this token lip service with Lethlean only reviewing very limited areas rather than ALL the Club.

Rico and Lethlean are both throwing the players under a bus at the moment. Where is the ALL in that?

[The OtherThommo]

All aspects of the club share the blame. That was the message during the review. The club has got us in this mess. The club has to get us out of this mess. The club as a whole.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that answer, it’s fact. It’s a real grim place at the moment.

Thanks tony 74. I accept what you say. Can't say the same about some of the wrist slashing negative dim nellies on here.

They want to burn the whole place down this week, but they would backflip in an instance if we won a game or two.

Get a grip man! Wanting senior management figures to accept responsibility for their actions, and the outcomes resulting from those actions, is a very long way from wanting to burn the joint down.

And, that's a 'crap post'!

I offer no opinion on whether that is beneath you, or not.

And, no, you will not see me 'back flip' if we win a game, or two. I said after Round 1 last year I thought Richardson was short of being a senior coach. The man is not a strategic thinker, and that's an imperative for being a senior coach.

Gat a grip? I would suggest you lossen yours. Where did I specifically mention you in the post you have quoted?

FFS, the whole forum has been riddled with negative posts for weeks if not months.

You are just the latest in a long line of disgruntled supporters venting their spleens imho.

Ya pays your dollars Ost, ya buys the right to vent ya spleen.

And, no amount of hyperbole about 'dim nellies' and 'wrist slashing' will ever change that.

[st.byron]

The minute you detect the management ranks deflecting all responsibility on to the employees, you know you’re f***ed!

‘Lethers’ isn’t a hard man, he’s a spiv from HQ come to shore up mediocrity, and protect the hierarchy from accountability.


Come the lawyers from HQ, come the decline. Finnis and Lethlean? Both Lawyers.

What utter crap. The post is beneath you TOT.

ToT is spot on. Anytime management starts blaming the employees instead of evaluating their own performance you’re on a slippery slope to even worse performance. If management does want to address issues with employees....i.e. coaches / administrators wanting to address issues with players, then keep it in house. Don’t publicly belittle those who work for you. Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if various players came out and publicly said the coaching is sub-standard and administrators are protecting mediocrity. How would that look? Like a club in open revolt. But it seems Lethlean and Richardson at least think they can publicly belittle the playing group as though that’s somehow going to make them better players. They are a disaster, compounding their incompetence with blaming and finger pointing.

Not spot on at all. It was and is a crap post. But hey, stick up for you mates and sink the boot into the club, if it makes you feel better.

Even Ross said the players were dead in the water after they stopped competing.

I’m not sticking up for my mates. The second and third sentences of your post are completely unnecessary. Just your world view of everything having to be an argument and adversarial. You could have just posted about what Seb Ross said, which I hadn’t heard. I agree with the post and am happy to have a debate with those who agree and those who don’t. I still reckon accountability for the player’s performance lies with the coach. Yes they have to bring themselves to the contest, but if they’re not motivated and dead in the water then I have to ask, why is that?

More crap. You never debate you just insult. Been doing it for tears.

Maybe you should run that assertion by some other posters to get a bit of feedback about just how insulting I am.
I noticed you edited your post from just being rolly eyes to adding the text as well. My nomination for the most ironic post of the year, possibly decade. Pot Kettle Black writ large. Of all the nasty, insulting, personally abusive, belittling, constantly argumentative keyboard warriors on here over the years, you Saynta and your previous forum incarnation are on the podium vying for #1 spot.