Tough Call may have to be made

[BigMart]

IMO we are over stocked in two areas
Ruck - I think Pierce will overtake Longer next year... Longer is not a #3 ruckman
Small Forward/Mid
Although the heights are inaccurate
22 - Darren Minchington - 182
18 - Jade Gresham - 177
20 - Jack Billings - 184
20 - Jack Sinclair - 180
19 - Jack Lonie - 174
21 - Eli Templeton - 183
23 - Tom Curran - 178
35 - Josh Saunders -180

There are not enough FPs small midfielder or HFs on the ground to keep the lot. It's ok to suggest that a few will transition into the midfield, but look at the stocks there... Are they going to push out
25 - Jack Steven - 180
28 - Armitage 184
23 - Ross 187
22 - Newnes 184
20 - Dunstan 184
20 - Acres 189
19 - McKenzie 184
20 - Freeman 183

There are some obvious delistings. But most of the small mid/fwds have shown something
Gresham ATM is doing well and seems a lock. Just had more ability than others.
Minchington has always been above VFL and we haven't seen his best yet at AFL level, he's blisteringly quick around the ball and is skilful
Billings is clearly a quality player
Sinclair and Lonie were the future certainties after 2015, Lonie is clever, quick and elusive with X Factor. His 3 VFL games clearly suggest that that's not his level. Lacks composure though and is too emotional.
Sinclair is an ice man, he is extremely polished and like Gresham has great balance and poise, he always takes the right option and is very clean. But lacks a big engine.
It was Eli in 2014 who was the best smokey of the draft and a future star. He is a power runner and has very solid skills.
Curran was the 2012 VFL best and fairest at 20yo I a team that contained Ross, Webster, Murdoch, Cripps, Lynch, Saunders. He then played 2013 in the seniors and did well as a 21yo tagger/defensive fwd. The rise of Weller in both those roles who is bigger, better, faster has seemingly finished him. Although, all those smaller fit and playing together in the one team Curran would be rated the #1 midfielder still (perhaps just age?)
Saunders is just a goer, fit and runs hard with poor disposal. A really poor mans VFL Jack Steven

Except for the last two
Who are just very good VFL players who could only fill a mcqualter-esque role in an AFL team

I believe all the others can easily make the grade and have AFL ability

Can a position he found for them all or at least most?
Are they traceable? Would that decision cost the club?

[borderbarry]

You have Freeman listed as a player to be pushed out.. He has never been in yet.
The players in danger of being delisted would be,
Curren, Saunders, and maybe Lonie for a trade. Freeman has yet to get through a game with Sandringham Seniors, so question mark there.

[BigMart]

None of this is to do with the current 22
I'm talking about when the whips are cracking in a few years. That's where we need to project our thoughts. The here and now is only a stepping stone.

I reckon in future planning (injury dependent) Freeman is earmarked for a senior position on the outside. If he was not, we would not have selected him.

[terry smith rules]

I think we have to offer up one of the smalls with potential

We do have too many on the list and we should be trying to fill gaps.

There is no value in just cutting players as that only gives you space on your list. We need to be able to offer somebody of potential. So as you say when the whips are cracking I believe that either one of Sinclair, Lonie or Minch (possibly) should be offered as trade to get us moving up in the trade world

Its not that I dislike any of them as players but realisitically do they all fit and at the moment these guys have value to clubs looking for small forwards

[stkfc1]

Agree tough calls need to be made. As much as you'd love to keep them all we do have too many ruckman and Longer, once fit and Pierce, with another pre season in him aren't going to be too happy playing VFL all next year barring injuries. AR obviously happy with one ruck and Carlisle will be our chop out ruck next year. Longer for mine is the one we'll move on. He'll get great value as there are plenty of teams screaming out for a ready made ruckman and he is quality when up and about. Maybe even a double up with one of those small forwards? Longer and say Eli/Lonie would definitely attract interest and should secure a low pick or a good player and really would we be loosing that much? We have more than we need of those types so we need to put our emotions out of it and play hard ball for the benefit of the club.

[terry smith rules]

Agree tough calls need to be made. As much as you'd love to keep them all we do have too many ruckman and Longer, once fit and Pierce, with another pre season in him aren't going to be too happy playing VFL all next year barring injuries. AR obviously happy with one ruck and Carlisle will be our chop out ruck next year. Longer for mine is the one we'll move on. He'll get great value as there are plenty of teams screaming out for a ready made ruckman and he is quality when up and about. Maybe even a double up with one of those small forwards? Longer and say Eli/Lonie would definitely attract interest and should secure a low pick or a good player and really would we be loosing that much? We have more than we need of those types so we need to put our emotions out of it and play hard ball for the benefit of the club.

Exactly, GWS with Mumford coming to the end and no real back up could be a home for Billy, and then can get into their wealth of talent

[BringBackMadDog]

Agree tough calls need to be made. As much as you'd love to keep them all we do have too many ruckman and Longer, once fit and Pierce, with another pre season in him aren't going to be too happy playing VFL all next year barring injuries. AR obviously happy with one ruck and Carlisle will be our chop out ruck next year. Longer for mine is the one we'll move on. He'll get great value as there are plenty of teams screaming out for a ready made ruckman and he is quality when up and about. Maybe even a double up with one of those small forwards? Longer and say Eli/Lonie would definitely attract interest and should secure a low pick or a good player and really would we be loosing that much? We have more than we need of those types so we need to put our emotions out of it and play hard ball for the benefit of the club.

Carlisle won't be able to give a chop out in the ruck if he is playing at CHB or FB. Generally this comes from a key forward not a defender.

[stonecold]

If you want to improve, you have to give something up to get something.back, so don't be surprised to see Longer, Billings or Sinclair/Lonnie thrown @ Essendon as part of the Hurley deal!!!!!

[BigMart]

Why is that?

That the chop out ruckman is a forward? Now that fwds are second to mids in kilometres covered per match these days

I'd say it'd be difficult playing Key Forward and the having to go into the ruck, after all the ground they cover.

Bruce works as hard as any player on the ground as a key forward. He covers twice the territory of Luke Delaney

[MC Gusto]

If you want to improve, you have to give something up to get something.back, so don't be surprised to see Longer, Billings or Sinclair/Lonnie thrown @ Essendon as part of the Hurley deal!!!!!

I wouldn't be surprised id be flabbergasted!

Lonie billings longer and Sinclair will all be at the club next year. I think the club:
Will never trade billings
Have long term plans for longer (more likely pierce would be traded)
Will keep both Sinclair and Lonie for at least the next couple of seasons

[Con Gorozidis]

Probable de-listings are:

Shenton
Curren
Lee
Murdoch

Possible Retirements
Fisher
Dempster ?

Possible Trades
Longer?
Lonie?

[Linton Lodger]

If good sense prevails and I have no resaon to believe it won't. Then Longer, Lonie, Sinclair and Templeton are definite keepers. I am confident that they all will be good players for us.

Saunders, Curren & Shenton would be under pressure.

We have an abundance of rucks, but unless a good trade is offered I'd be keeping them. Longer definitely, leaving Pierce who has potential & Holmes who is still learning the game. We've invested a lot of time developing them both and they might be worth keeping. Ruck stocks can become stark in the event of injuries or unforeseen circumstances. Look at Port Adelaide this year and of course our '97 GF!

Whilst, I love the way he goes about it, Nathan Wright would be dicey because of sub par foot skills. However, given his hardness he is a good back up, but I don't see him in our best 22 anytime soon.

Murdoch is too good to delist, simple as that.

I think Lee & Delaney have shown enough at AFL level when used to keep their spots.

[stkfc1]

Agree tough calls need to be made. As much as you'd love to keep them all we do have too many ruckman and Longer, once fit and Pierce, with another pre season in him aren't going to be too happy playing VFL all next year barring injuries. AR obviously happy with one ruck and Carlisle will be our chop out ruck next year. Longer for mine is the one we'll move on. He'll get great value as there are plenty of teams screaming out for a ready made ruckman and he is quality when up and about. Maybe even a double up with one of those small forwards? Longer and say Eli/Lonie would definitely attract interest and should secure a low pick or a good player and really would we be loosing that much? We have more than we need of those types so we need to put our emotions out of it and play hard ball for the benefit of the club.

Exactly, GWS with Mumford coming to the end and no real back up could be a home for Billy, and then can get into their wealth of talent

That would be my first port of call. They would be happy to part ways with a couple of early picks or say a Jack Steele and a pick. Wouldn't effect them whatsoever. Win-win.

[HitTheBoundary]

We are mad if we trade Lonie.
Once he gains composure in the firsts, which he will get with age/experience, he will be a gun.

If he can kick straight for Sandringham, which he can, then he'll eventually kick straight at senior level.
Patience.....

Regarding the others, in a few years it will decide itself. Some just won't be able to force their way in.

But I'd trade Longer for as high a draft pick as possible or in a deal for a quality outside mid.

[BigMart]

Can't just rid of 3 player that no one rates

There will be 2 that will go that have currency and we'd like to keep

However
If we trade a 21yo Jack Billings in any way for a 26 year old Key Defender
I'll stop following the club!!!

[Saint wagga]

Good original Post - food for thought for sure and liek all things, time will reveal all...

FWI IMO - we should flick Holmes, we dont need him on the list anymore and he will probably never have the footy smarts in time to complement his athleticism and our teams needs, he probably needed to be 19-20y.o and join us in 2011 for a longer run at it, imo of course.

As for the smalls, i think time, luck, injury and natural attrition will help shape that list. Add to that coaches pets (yes, they exist at all levels of football and life) and some will make it, some wont. It will be harder for players to crack the side now than say 2012/2013, so when they do they need to grasp those opportunities like it's life and death...perhaps thats the culture that breeds really high level sustained success...good examples are Membrey this year, Bruce last year, Gresham, Ross. SOme might do it season 1, other season 2, others season 5!

As it stands, guys i have big question marks over now with regards to maintaining thier spot/making an impact in our regular best 22 in 2017 and beyond are:
Saunders
Murdoch
Wright
McKenzie
Freeman
Shenton
Lee
Curren
Holmes

I do'nt think all will or need to be dlisted at seasons end, their just the players that i think could be gone in 1-3 years off our list...I dont dislike any of them, but lists have to evolve and players moved on, it's a tough business...I was devo when yougn rookie defender Ferguson was moved on 4 years ago after 1 stinker against nth melbourne, thought he was so hard done by with opportunity...but he's never been heard of again in footy, so obviously the coaches/recruiters knew he asn't up to it...i will be sad if tommy curren or a brodie murdoch get chopped, but time moves on and I just the best side available and best talented list going forward...so the OP was spot on, tough calls will need to be made!!

[BigMart]

MacKenzie is a must keep!!

Gun, he will be at worst Kade Simpson level but I think better
Has more pace

[saintsRrising]

IMO we are over stocked in two areas
Ruck - I think Pierce will overtake Longer next year... Longer is not a #3 ruckman

Yes I would be surprsied if we keep both Hickey and Longer, though I much prefer Hickey and have done for a while.

However if it is this year it would probably need strong interest from another club. Not sure that it would be GWS as the already have Lobb and 2 younger ruck giants. Mummy is also not yet 30.

Small Forward/Mid
Although the heights are inaccurate
22 - Darren Minchington - 182
18 - Jade Gresham - 177
20 - Jack Billings - 184
20 - Jack Sinclair - 180
19 - Jack Lonie - 174
21 - Eli Templeton - 183
23 - Tom Curran - 178
35 - Josh Saunders -180

From what I have seen only Lonie and Minch are small forwards.

Gresh is a mid in waiting who is just easing in asa small forward.

Billings has been playing midfield and even back to set up play with his precise kicking. I suspect he will stay doing that or become a mid and will not play as a dedicated small forward.

Sinclair I am a fan of and I believe that he is a good chance to make it as a mid, where he has now been playing with sandy. He works very well in traffic and can arch the back and break away with pace.

Temp has been play mid all year well at Sandy.

Saunders and Curran are both mids, but both will be delisted.

END OF SEASON

We have already swapped our second rounder for Freeman. So that leaves say our 1st, 3rd and 4th rounders to use.

DELISTINGS

Curran, Shenton.

Not all of Delaney, Lee, Demspter and Fisher will be at the club next year one would think. Fisher is desperate to play on but his recent hammy after a bad few seasons may have the club calling time. Suspect that up to 2 will go.


ROOKIES
Saunders to go and probably Holmes. Not sure if anyone will be elevated. So that gives at least 2 new rookies.


OVERALL
3 tor players to be dlisted and retire plus 2 rookies.

If we trade out a player like Longer that may mean another in.

So the bulk of our younger players who have not yet "made it" will be retained to give them another year to press their claims. That Sandy is now playing well and "Saints Footy" will aid in this.

[desertsaint]

Read an article on the roar suggesting Marchbank for Longer and Roberton as steak knives. Would take that in a heartbeat.
Hell i'd throw Goddard in as steaknives.

[magnifisaint]

Can't just rid of 3 player that no one rates

There will be 2 that will go that have currency and we'd like to keep

However
If we trade a 21yo Jack Billings in any way for a 26 year old Key Defender
I'll stop following the club!!!

There will be a few joining you

[supersaints]

Agree with Saintsrising particularly regarding the small forward / center positions. Only Mich and Lonie are true small forwards.

Seems AR and co are currently using the small forward position to develop players in the AFL who's bodies are a season or two away from being able to take the normal center physical punishment. They can hone their goal kicking skills and more importantly learn to apply the forward pressure necessary to create what seems to becomming our trademark. After all we can only develop so many at Sandi, eg: Eli

With the advent of likely less and less interchanges in future we would be looking at sending center players forward were possible to create a dangerous opponent, also allowing a few more interchanges for our key positions etc

Looks like clever development to me ... Not some " obsession with small forwards by AR " as claimed by a lot of posters,

[BigMart]

So SR

You suggest our midfield will have
Steven, Sinclair, Billings, Templeton, Gresham
Will play in the StK midfield - talk about a mosquito fleet!
What about Armitage, Ross, Dunstan, Newnes, Acres, Freeman
How many midfield positions do you think there are?? Especially for sub 183cm mid/fwds

That's the point
We are overstocked

Whilst I actually believe Minchington is actually a midfielder more than say Billings or Sinclair... He starts in the middle for Sandy and averages nearly 10 clearances.

[supersaints]

I can't answer for SR but I will make a comment....Seeing I basically agree with him.
Not all the players mentioned will make it , that's natural, during a rebuild you need lots of options to sort the wheat from the chaff we can't afford to only have just a few options and keep playing them hoping they come good we've done that in the past.

I think we only need one of two bigger center players , Acres should cover one
However You do seem to have some sort of obsession with 183 cm... You must be a ruckman

We will have to replace
Leigh motagna 32),
Height: 1.78 m
Jason Geary age 28),
Height: 1.83 m
So there are two positions that are coming up, around the same height...

Mav Weller is only about 183 he goes alright.... He does not have to play center but would be capable his value is as smaller pressure forward

Joel Selwood is about 182 he goes alright and if you asked me if I would accept four Joel Selwoods in the middle then I would jump at it.


I see us rotating a lot of players through the center particularly with the likelihood of reduced interchNge as I have discussed previously.
It's a bloody rebuild not contending for a flag... Yet!

[mad saint guy]

This is how I imagine (hope) the best 22 from our current list will look like in 2018. I'm being a little conservative with Freeman because I don't think he'll suddenly get his body right and start dominating. If he comes good it will be a slow burn.

B: Roberton (27), Goddard (21), McKenzie (22)
HB: Savage (27), Carlisle (26), Webster (25)
C: Acres (22), Armitage (30), Newnes (25)
HF: Billings (22), Bruce (26), Weller (26)
F: Lonie (21), McCartin (22), Membrey (24)

Foll: Hickey (27), Steven (28), Ross (25)
Int: Sinclair (23), Gresham (20), Dunstan (23), Minchington (24)

Close: Templeton (22), Longer (25), White (21), Freeman (22), Pierce (23), White (21), Rice (21)

I'm not so concerned about having so many similar types on the bench because I think most of those small forwards will end up predominantly playing midfield. Sinclair, Gresham and Minchington to me seem to be mids who can kick goals rather than small forwards. Lonie is a pure crumbing forward and Billings looks like a Nathan Brown style half-forward but the rest should end up in the middle. Templeton especially is a pure mid and pretty useless up forward. I don't think we need to be in any hurry to ship off players with currency because they haven't established themselves in their first few years. Though if I were Longer I'd be shopping myself around (especially to Richmond) because I don't think he's going to overtake Hickey for a few years and they simply can't play in the same team unless Billy can become semi useful up forward.

[BigMart]

That side is OK

But you wouldn't want a key position player or two to be unavailable

As you have no size on the bench or close

But you have 4 mid/small fwds on the bench and another 2 as close

You also have 2 ruckmen as close

There possibly 4 spots available for small mid/fwds yet there is 8 in the 25
There is really one spot for a ruckman yet there is 3 in that 25

There are 4 required KPP and you have 4

Hence we are overstocked in 2 areas