No improvement?

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thejiggingsaint
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No improvement?

Post: # 1680552Post thejiggingsaint »

Yes folks, I know it's not pretty to watch at the present time, and a lot of folk saw us firmly ensconced in the top four by round fourteen. However, I believe we've improved on 2016.

Our ladder postion after 14 rounds in 2016 : 12th

Points: 24

Wins: 6

Losses: 7

Percentage: 87.8%


Our ladder position after 14 rounds in 2017: 8th

Points: 28

Wins: 7

Losses: 6

Percentage: 97.9%

Now I'm no genius ( far from it ) but those stats sure look like improvement to ME! Four ladder spots better than the same stage last season. One win better than at the same stage last season. And a much improved percentage than at the same stage last season. I could be wrong, but THOSE figures, ( however short of (some) expectations they may be) reflect an improvement.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by thejiggingsaint on Sun 25 Jun 2017 10:41pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680555Post SemperFidelis »

If only we could kick straight Jiggster - there'd be much less argument!


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680564Post chook23 »

I will judge after final round...more accurate.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680565Post St Lenny »

Our ladder position means nothing. We are shocking and can only beat bottom teams. Next week we will get flogged. There is no leadership, our kicking is woeful, our skills are non existent and we don't have anyone who stands out. Our game plan is ugly and the game has become boring. I am so disillusioned and fed up with waiting.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680566Post thejiggingsaint »

SemperFidelis I guess almost every side in the comp could say that about their kicking mate. But I'm sympathetic to your point. In 2017 our "points for" column is UP by 23 points ( almost four goals better than at the same stage in 2016) at 1138 ( for 2016 it was 1115)
Our "points against" column is down by 108 points at: 1162 ( for 2016 it was 1270)
I realise that the two columns are still WAY out of whack from where we'd like them to be, and there are grounds for feeling disappointed that we're (perhaps) not as dominant as we all thought we'd be in 2017. However, I will take improvements of ANY dimension , every day of the week, as these ( if maintained ) provide the framework to take the next step.
Last edited by thejiggingsaint on Sun 25 Jun 2017 11:05pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680569Post thejiggingsaint »

[quote="St Lenny"]Our ladder position means nothing. We are shocking and can only beat bottom teams. Next week we will get flogged. There is no leadership, our kicking is woeful, our skills are non existent and we don't have anyone who stands out. Our game plan is ugly and the game has become boring. I am so disillusioned and fed up with waiting.[/quote]

As I said, it ain't pretty, BUT our position has improved from last season. Time to hang in there mate! I'm sure we will be looking much better both on the ladder and game style before too much longer.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680570Post WellardSaint »

thejiggingsaint wrote:I guess almost every side in the comp could say that about their kicking mate. But I'm sympathetic to your point. In 2017 our "points for" column is UP by 23 points ( almost four goals better than at the same stage in 2016) at 1138 ( for 2016 it was 1115)
Our "points against" column is down by 108 points at: 1162 ( for 2016 it was 1270)
I realise that the two columns are still WAY out of whack from where we'd like them to be, and there are grounds for feeling disappointed that we're (perhaps) not as dominant as we all thought we'd be in 2017. However, I will take improvements of ANY dimension , every day of the week, as these ( if maintained ) provide the framework to take the next step.
At this point last year, we'd lost to WCE by 105 and Crows by 88, so there's the difference.

We should be at least 15-20 goals better but too many goals missed


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680577Post thejiggingsaint »

St Lenny...."our ladder position means NOTHING" (?!?!) REALLY? There's still a lot of footy to be played between now and round 23. I believe we can play finals. I believe that anything is possible. Tell the Bulldogs that "ladder position means nothing" as they try to defend their premiership.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680583Post The Fireman »

No improvement? correct.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680604Post Moods »

Our current ladder position means nothing. We are a 10th to 14th team. We just beat a bottom of the ladder interstate team on our home ground. They had 7 forced changes from their last game and some of those changes were some of the better players including their best player. Our fwd line structure has become predictable. Our best player of the past 15 years is finally looking his age and no-one obvious is stepping into the gaping hole that he's left. Our skill level is bottom 4, but our effort around the ball makes up for that to raise us to the 10th to 14th level. Right now there is very little to get excited about. Billings was very good today. Bruce has got better since his wake up call. Seb Ross has definitely improved (despite today being a downer for him) Gresham is treading water and his skills are going backward. Weller is trying hard, but his skills are getting beyond a joke.

Whilst guys like Dunstan (slow meddling players with no obvious upside) and Longer (lumbering ruckman who takes no marks around the ground and when he does win the ball is often clumsy with it, are getting a game we will continue to grind out home wins against bottom teams and try hard against top teams. The worst thing is due to the lack of excitement in our game right now, no-one wants to watch us, as evidenced by our pitiful crowds lately. Putting all the blame on North last week for that crowd was grossly unfair by our supporters. Don't know what the figure of the crowd was today but it looked embarrassing.

Our #1 draft pick is either out injured, playing reserves, or is being weighed down in the seniors with the crushing expectation of our supporter group. He is into his 3rd year, has barely played 20 games and is not providing the hope that we all desperately and unfairly want from the kid. We have literally nil flair about our game and so want him to provide it for us.

Last year we accepted our position and celebrated every win as a milestone. I'm sure most were hoping for a season like the Dees are currently having. A bit up and down, but obvious improvements in our game. Whilst statistics can provide some sort of comfort and even kid ourselves that we have improved, the reality is we haven't. After 13 rounds I hope the players don't accept that and give us something to get excited about on the run home. I can accept not making finals, I really can, but I desperately want to spend a day at the footy cheering more than groaning........


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680608Post Bernard Shakey »

We have beaten GWS and six teams below us, which is about where we're at. Happy at present.
Next year is our moving year, after picking up two quick mids and another key defender.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680613Post Proph3t of egan »

Bernard Shakey wrote:We have beaten GWS and six teams below us, which is about where we're at. Happy at present.
Next year is our moving year, after picking up two quick mids and another key defender.
Right on. Was never the plan to win it this year. As long as we beat the teams below us and develop our players we are doing fine for now


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680616Post Jacks Back »

Moods wrote:The worst thing is due to the lack of excitement in our game right now, no-one wants to watch us, as evidenced by our pitiful crowds lately. Putting all the blame on North last week for that crowd was grossly unfair by our supporters. Don't know what the figure of the crowd was today but it looked embarrassing.
15,844 apparently


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680666Post thejiggingsaint »

Sunday twilight game may have had something to do with the crowd figure. As for "putting all the blame on North for that crowd" goes, wellit was THEIR home game after all :roll:
Last edited by thejiggingsaint on Mon 26 Jun 2017 9:23am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680670Post saintspremiers »

thejiggingsaint wrote:Sunday twilight game may have had soamething to do with the crowd figure. As for "putting all the blame on North for that crowd" goes, wellit was THEIR home game after all :roll:
Twilight is rubbish.

Have a 1.10, 2.10 and 3.20 timeslots for Sunday.

Foxtel will still do well with that.

The only 4.40 game should be the Perth ones due to time zone difference


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680691Post bigred »

42% conversion rate is deplorable. Without taking the p1ss that should have been a 60+ point win last night but we just butcher it in front of goal.

What are we? 46% for the season? What a waste.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680722Post Linton Lodger »

WellardSaint wrote:
thejiggingsaint wrote:I guess almost every side in the comp could say that about their kicking mate. But I'm sympathetic to your point. In 2017 our "points for" column is UP by 23 points ( almost four goals better than at the same stage in 2016) at 1138 ( for 2016 it was 1115)
Our "points against" column is down by 108 points at: 1162 ( for 2016 it was 1270)
I realise that the two columns are still WAY out of whack from where we'd like them to be, and there are grounds for feeling disappointed that we're (perhaps) not as dominant as we all thought we'd be in 2017. However, I will take improvements of ANY dimension , every day of the week, as these ( if maintained ) provide the framework to take the next step.
At this point last year, we'd lost to WCE by 105 and Crows by 88, so there's the difference.

We should be at least 15-20 goals better but too many goals missed

and how many times had we played Essendon & Carlton by that stage?


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680731Post meher baba »

More rubbish on this thread. We are heaps better in many areas than we were last year:

Defence, thanks to the arrival of Carlisle and Brown; Roberton and Webster continuing to improve; Geary also improving, with much better judgement around his kicking, and possibly even some slight skill improvement (which is highly unusual for a player of his age)

Midfield/outside: Ross and Billings have become elite, Sinclair has made a quantum leap, Stevens has been a terrific acquisition, Steele and Acres have shown glimpses, Dunstan might still make it, Steven continues to be elite, and Gresham shows flashes of brilliance but needs to work harder on his game. And Armo might come back and strengthen this area further.

Forward line: alas, not much improvement here. Riewoldt and Membrey still look pretty good, but desperately need a third musketeer to provide a central target. Bruce's form has been up and down. Lonie has shown glimpses in the last two games.

Ruck: Billy is as bad as Hickey, but in different ways.

We're not as far off as many of you seem to think. If we can recruit a Kelly or a Martin that would be great. Even if we can't do this, Acres and Billings could potentially develop into serious creative forces in our future midfield.

I'm more bothered about our forward line. Last night, Riewoldt was the only forward player who was seriously worrying the GC defence. Membrey and Bruce are potentially long-term players for us, but we need a dangerous target man. Maybe Paddy can still become this, but - if I were in charge of our recruiting - I'd be trying to snare another quality forward (preferably a ruck-forward) even before looking at a Kelly or a Martin.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680732Post thejiggingsaint »

Yes, I'll take the win! Why wouldn't I? It's minuscule I know, BUT the side HAVE improved from 2016. When this team clicks ( and it WILL!) some side is in for an absolute PASTING! Keep faith, the side are on the upward route!


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680736Post Moods »

meher baba wrote:More rubbish on this thread. We are heaps better in many areas than we were last year:

Defence, thanks to the arrival of Carlisle and Brown; Roberton and Webster continuing to improve; Geary also improving, with much better judgement around his kicking, and possibly even some slight skill improvement (which is highly unusual for a player of his age)

Midfield/outside: Ross and Billings have become elite, Sinclair has made a quantum leap, Stevens has been a terrific acquisition, Steele and Acres have shown glimpses, Dunstan might still make it, Steven continues to be elite, and Gresham shows flashes of brilliance but needs to work harder on his game. And Armo might come back and strengthen this area further.

Forward line: alas, not much improvement here. Riewoldt and Membrey still look pretty good, but desperately need a third musketeer to provide a central target. Bruce's form has been up and down. Lonie has shown glimpses in the last two games.

Ruck: Billy is as bad as Hickey, but in different ways.

We're not as far off as many of you seem to think. If we can recruit a Kelly or a Martin that would be great. Even if we can't do this, Acres and Billings could potentially develop into serious creative forces in our future midfield.

I'm more bothered about our forward line. Last night, Riewoldt was the only forward player who was seriously worrying the GC defence. Membrey and Bruce are potentially long-term players for us, but we need a dangerous target man. Maybe Paddy can still become this, but - if I were in charge of our recruiting - I'd be trying to snare another quality forward (preferably a ruck-forward) even before looking at a Kelly or a Martin.
I agree that our defence is better this year. Carlisle and Brown have definitely improved us in this area. I agree with all your comments re defence actually. That's not our problem.

Re our mids. What do you call elite? I'd argue no-one in our team is elite. We have some very good AFL footballers, and Ross is one of those. Billings has been up and down all year. At his best he has a higher ceiling than anyone in the team. His last 7-8 games have been very encouraging. Ross has definitely improved. He seems stronger and fitter and his ball use is far better. He consistently wins possessions in the mid 20's and is more effective with those possessions. Steven is not elite in my opinion, not compared to the genuine elite mids in the comp. This is our problem. He's our best mid and probably our best player. The opposition know it and have started to put a lot of work into him to limit his effectiveness. His breakaway speed from packs sets up the game, but his kicking once he breaks away is inconsistent at best. He needs help in there and I'm certainly not laying the blame at his feet. Rarely does a midfield function on the back of one gun mid - which is why G. Ablett has been incredible at the GC. Ross and Steven have been very good this year, with Steven's effectiveness blunted recently.

We needed more improvement from the likes of Acres this year. We haven't seen it enough tbh. I personally believe that the inclusion of Steele, Stevens and Dunstan hasn't changed our midfield much at all. I was always concerned that Steele didn't kick the ball enough. It's ok to feed the ball out, but that's only really damaging if it hit a runner at speed. Little dinky handpasses in close to a player in nearly as much pressure isn't that great. Stevens is tough and lays tackles, but he doesn't influence games or change the tempo of a game. His disposal is only average. Dunstan definitely hasn't improved and we have given him a lot of chances. Armo is a good player but who knows when he'll return and in what state. We are crying out for quality mids, not just more mids like what we recruited this year.

Our rucking stocks have gone backwards a country mile. Hickey was just below the best rucks in the league last year. Instead he languishes in the reserves and he looked pathetic pre-season. Now he's injured. Longer is not AFL standard. This hardly helps our mid field or our fwd line.

Our fwd line has also gone backwards. Roo is another year older. He's still good enough to play and be effective but it's an indictment on the rest of the team that he still remains our most viable target up forward - by a long way. Gresham does some clever things but he is no where near as clean as he promised to be earlier in his career. Sinclair has improved but in terms of quality small fwds he's still only average. Wellar has gone backwards - can't kick and his strong overhead marking is non existent. His defensive work is ok but nothing sensational for a defensive fwd. Bruce has had a poor year, but looks like the penny may have dropped recently. I had high hopes for Membery but feel as though he will only ever be a 3rd tall and he's still nothing like say a Tom Lynch at Crows. We have no real structure coming into the fwd line. We're either hopelessly outnumbered or we bomb it to the predictable spot top of the goal square as if we have Lockett, Carey and Simon Madden all competing for the ball.

In summary - our defence is coming along fine. Our mids are one paced apart from Steven and don't give us anything like the run we need at this level to get the ball into space. Our skills also let us down as much as our lack of run. Dunstan, Stevens, Steele and even Gresham, Sinclair etc don;t have the poise or xeecution of skills to give our average fwd line the delivery they need to kick winning scores against good opposition.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680737Post PremiershipSaint »

Delusional. We are so so average.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680739Post meher baba »

Moods: I agree with much of what you say, but I think you and others underestimate the strength of our midfield (or, more accurately, our backline and midfield working together). In just about every game this season (the game against the Swans was the main exception), we have shown that we can get plenty of the ball to our forwards and give them a chance to kick a winning score. It's often ugly, but it's no less effective for that. Most people consider Brazil to be the all-time best soccer nation, but Germany has an equally strong claim.

Far and away our biggest problems are up front. I reckon we can keep any team in the comp to a losing score. But we struggle to put them away on the scoreboard.


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680742Post mbogo »

We are very average.
However, having said that - there are about 12 "average" teams this year and we are one of them. Like many on here I have been waiting for us to "click". At around this time last year the Dogs started to click and ended up winning the flag from 7th!!
Where are we now? 8th - now by my calculations,over the next few weeks, we could drop to 12th or cement ourselves in the 8 and have a real crack at every game.
Freo, Richmond and Essendon are all intermittently fragile and they are also all "average" most of the time. If we play with intensity and aggressively we can match it with them and YES, I believe we COULD win two or three and be in with another shot against Sydney. We play a messy game that seems to limit what free-flowing sides are able to achieve - this is a good thing - although it is not pretty.
The questions that have to be answered are:
Why do we seem to be so flat?
Why can't we kick accurately and dominate in keeping the ball in our 50 more regularly?
Can we lift our intensity to our best and play consistently?
If our coaching panel can address these issues and the guys get just a smell of the confidence they need then why can't we match it with the top sides like we did against GWS?
The season is not over - our real test lies only a week away and follows in the three weeks after that!
(I would also like to see Jack Steele given another shot.)
Go Saints....


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680745Post Moods »

mbogo wrote:We are very average.
However, having said that - there are about 12 "average" teams this year and we are one of them. Like many on here I have been waiting for us to "click". At around this time last year the Dogs started to click and ended up winning the flag from 7th!!
Where are we now? 8th - now by my calculations,over the next few weeks, we could drop to 12th or cement ourselves in the 8 and have a real crack at every game.
Freo, Richmond and Essendon are all intermittently fragile and they are also all "average" most of the time. If we play with intensity and aggressively we can match it with them and YES, I believe we COULD win two or three and be in with another shot against Sydney. We play a messy game that seems to limit what free-flowing sides are able to achieve - this is a good thing - although it is not pretty.
The questions that have to be answered are:
Why do we seem to be so flat?
Why can't we kick accurately and dominate in keeping the ball in our 50 more regularly?
Can we lift our intensity to our best and play consistently?
If our coaching panel can address these issues and the guys get just a smell of the confidence they need then why can't we match it with the top sides like we did against GWS?
The season is not over - our real test lies only a week away and follows in the three weeks after that!
(I would also like to see Jack Steele given another shot.)
Go Saints....

Good post. Realistic but optimistic at the same time. I like it :D


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Re: No improvement?

Post: # 1680751Post terry smith rules »

Moods wrote:
meher baba wrote:More rubbish on this thread. We are heaps better in many areas than we were last year:
W
Defence, thanks to the arrival of Carlisle and Brown; Roberton and Webster continuing to improve; Geary also improving, with much better judgement around his kicking, and possibly even some slight skill improvement (which is highly unusual for a player of his age)

Midfield/outside: Ross and Billings have become elite, Sinclair has made a quantum leap, Stevens has been a terrific acquisition, Steele and Acres have shown glimpses, Dunstan might still make it, Steven continues to be elite, and Gresham shows flashes of brilliance but needs to work harder on his game. And Armo might come back and strengthen this area further.

Forward line: alas, not much improvement here. Riewoldt and Membrey still look pretty good, but desperately need a third musketeer to provide a central target. Bruce's form has been up and down. Lonie has shown glimpses in the last two games.

Ruck: Billy is as bad as Hickey, but in different ways.

We're not as far off as many of you seem to think. If we can recruit a Kelly or a Martin that would be great. Even if we can't do this, Acres and Billings could potentially develop into serious creative forces in our future midfield.

I'm more bothered about our forward line. Last night, Riewoldt was the only forward player who was seriously worrying the GC defence. Membrey and Bruce are potentially long-term players for us, but we need a dangerous target man. Maybe Paddy can still become this, but - if I were in charge of our recruiting - I'd be trying to snare another quality forward (preferably a ruck-forward) even before looking at a Kelly or a Martin.
I agree that our defence is better this year. Carlisle and Brown have definitely improved us in this area. I agree with all your comments re defence actually. That's not our problem.

Re our mids. What do you call elite? I'd argue no-one in our team is elite. We have some very good AFL footballers, and Ross is one of those. Billings has been up and down all year. At his best he has a higher ceiling than anyone in the team. His last 7-8 games have been very encouraging. Ross has definitely improved. He seems stronger and fitter and his ball use is far better. He consistently wins possessions in the mid 20's and is more effective with those possessions. Steven is not elite in my opinion, not compared to the genuine elite mids in the comp. This is our problem. He's our best mid and probably our best player. The opposition know it and have started to put a lot of work into him to limit his effectiveness. His breakaway speed from packs sets up the game, but his kicking once he breaks away is inconsistent at best. He needs help in there and I'm certainly not laying the blame at his feet. Rarely does a midfield function on the back of one gun mid - which is why G. Ablett has been incredible at the GC. Ross and Steven have been very good this year, with Steven's effectiveness blunted recently.

We needed more improvement from the likes of Acres this year. We haven't seen it enough tbh. I personally believe that the inclusion of Steele, Stevens and Dunstan hasn't changed our midfield much at all. I was always concerned that Steele didn't kick the ball enough. It's ok to feed the ball out, but that's only really damaging if it hit a runner at speed. Little dinky handpasses in close to a player in nearly as much pressure isn't that great. Stevens is tough and lays tackles, but he doesn't influence games or change the tempo of a game. His disposal is only average. Dunstan definitely hasn't improved and we have given him a lot of chances. Armo is a good player but who knows when he'll return and in what state. We are crying out for quality mids, not just more mids like what we recruited this year.

Our rucking stocks have gone backwards a country mile. Hickey was just below the best rucks in the league last year. Instead he languishes in the reserves and he looked pathetic pre-season. Now he's injured. Longer is not AFL standard. This hardly helps our mid field or our fwd line.

Our fwd line has also gone backwards. Roo is another year older. He's still good enough to play and be effective but it's an indictment on the rest of the team that he still remains our most viable target up forward - by a long way. Gresham does some clever things but he is no where near as clean as he promised to be earlier in his career. Sinclair has improved but in terms of quality small fwds he's still only average. Wellar has gone backwards - can't kick and his strong overhead marking is non existent. His defensive work is ok but nothing sensational for a defensive fwd. Bruce has had a poor year, but looks like the penny may have dropped recently. I had high hopes for Membery but feel as though he will only ever be a 3rd tall and he's still nothing like say a Tom Lynch at Crows. We have no real structure coming into the fwd line. We're either hopelessly outnumbered or we bomb it to the predictable spot top of the goal square as if we have Lockett, Carey and Simon Madden all competing for the ball.

In summary - our defence is coming along fine. Our mids are one paced apart from Steven and don't give us anything like the run we need at this level to get the ball into space. Our skills also let us down as much as our lack of run. Dunstan, Stevens, Steele and even Gresham, Sinclair etc don;t have the poise or xeecution of skills to give our average fwd line the delivery they need to kick winning scores against good opposition.
FYI moods Seb Ross is averaging 30.1 possessions this year not mid 20 by any stretch. He is easily an A- mid this year


" A few will never give up on you. When you go back out on the field, those are the people I want in your minds. Those are the people I want in your hearts."

— Coach Eric Taylor - Friday Night Lights
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