Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

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Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694093Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

There's been a lot of speculation about who we need on field in order to take the next step. Yes, Kelly or Martin would be great, just what we need for the playing list. What of the people who pick those who will represent us? I say we make a huge play for one of the top two recruiters in the game, Kinnear Beatson from the swines, or preferably, the number one man, Stephen Wells from Geelong. I remember our own John Peake, who worked under Wells before becoming our chief, spoke with awe of Wells ability to make good long term calls on players.

I know the cats had some luck with father son pick ups, but they have absorbed the loss of a dozen A grade players in the last 6 years with barely a hiccough. Even missing the finals in 2015 was turned into a plus with the acquisition of Dangerfield. Smart trading and recruiting. The only other top ten pick they've had since 2006 was used on Joel Selwood. Since then, they've traded and developed players very shrewdly. Amazingly, they've stayed at or near the top for a decade, defying conventional wisdom that dictates the best way to rebuild is through the draft. Rather than rebuild, the cats are in constant renovation mode.

Same with the Swines. They have an uncanny ability to pluck players from local comps, the VFL and the like, and turn them into good players. Dane Rampe springs to mind. Again, the Academy and the COLA helped, but they keep finding gems where no one else is looking. If they make it again this year, that will be finals 12 times in the past 13 years. Extraordinary. It starts with recruiting. They have great development sysystems, but you can't make strawberry jam from pig shyte.

I believe we had a gun recruiter in Matt "Bundy" Rendell. A bit of an eccentric, he had a great eye for player potential. Our record in recruiting during the GT era, especially in the trading area was outstanding. Remember, apart from high draft picks, we got Hamill, Gehrig, Penny, Black, Voss, Lawrence, and a real Bundy special (despite GT's protests), Guerra. Coupled with good draft pinches in Dal, Goose and Joey, we did exceptionally well. We've done nowhere near as well since. Unfortunately, Bundy had a habit of giving very direct feedback to whoever required it, no matter what their position or standing in the club. That, coupled with his loyalty to GT, saw him lost to us. He's done very well at Adelaide, I'm told.

So let's spend the dough where it may end up giving us the best return. When you consider every draft choice costs you a minimum of 350K, it makes sense to have the best making the choices. If we have the spare change, and the AFL allows it, I say we go for it.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694127Post dragit »

I reckon it's a bit of a myth or at least overstated with Wells... their last really good draft was 2009, their next 7 have been pretty average. They have traded very well, but that Dangerfield situation was a once in a lifetime gift.

They are still benefiting from that appalling father-son rule too, let's not forget that Selwood would probably not be there if they'd changed it a year earlier. They butchered the compo from the Ablett (another FS gift) defection, who they turned into smedts & caddy...

I like that they are prepared to get a deal done when they decide on a player, sometimes they may pay slightly over but at least they are on the front foot and land the players they need. I wish we were a bit more pro-active at the high end of the trade table, we always seem to baulk at price or picks.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694128Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:. Even missing the finals in 2015 was turned into a plus with the acquisition of Dangerfield. Smart trading and recruiting.
Dangerfield was just pure luck in that Dangerfield wanted to return to Moggs Creek and the Cats were the only club cooee.


However I do agree that Elshaug is not the best at picking talent.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694153Post portosaint »

Development is the issue IMO... Not talent


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694155Post Legendary »

Easy to forget that between 2003 and 2005 we: traded high picks for Barry Brooks and Fergus Watts, used pick 33 on Cain Ackland, pick 49 on Mark McGough, elevated Dylan Pfitzner and Nick Stone from the rookie list, selected Raph Clarke with pick 8, Craig Callaghan with pick 65, Michael Rix with pick 49, Phil Raymond with pick 63 and delisted Brent Guerra for nothing...

By the way, mate - Matt Rendell wasn't in charge of recruiting at the Saints (John Beveridge was) and he resigned from Adelaide in 2012 (5 years ago).


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694193Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

Legendary wrote:Easy to forget that between 2003 and 2005 we: traded high picks for Barry Brooks and Fergus Watts, used pick 33 on Cain Ackland, pick 49 on Mark McGough, elevated Dylan Pfitzner and Nick Stone from the rookie list, selected Raph Clarke with pick 8, Craig Callaghan with pick 65, Michael Rix with pick 49, Phil Raymond with pick 63 and delisted Brent Guerra for nothing...

By the way, mate - Matt Rendell wasn't in charge of recruiting at the Saints (John Beveridge was) and he resigned from Adelaide in 2012 (5 years ago).
I know he wasn't in charge and that Bevo was, but he had significant input in recruiting decisions. Bevo didn't do it all himself. Never said Bundy was in charge, just that he had a good eye for talent and had GT's ear and confidence. Barry Brooks was worth a punt but did his ACL and lost all confidence and his leap. Watts was cruelled by injury as well. As for picks in the 60's, that's clutching at straws in mounting an argument for failure. Very few picks that low make it anywhere. Guerra never had GT's confidence, not prior to being drafted or while he was there. He was let go because of a lack of dedication and behaviour. His record with us and elsewhere suggests he was a very good player. Got my tense wrong on the last bit.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694201Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:
I believe we had a gun recruiter in Matt "Bundy" Rendell. A bit of an eccentric, he had a great eye for player potential. Our record in recruiting during the GT era, especially in the trading area was outstanding. Remember, apart from high draft picks, we got Hamill, Gehrig, Penny, Black, Voss, Lawrence, and a real Bundy special (despite GT's protests), Guerra. Coupled with good draft pinches in Dal, Goose and Joey, we did exceptionally well. We've done nowhere near as well since. Unfortunately, Bundy had a habit of giving very direct feedback to whoever required it, no matter what their position or standing in the club. That, coupled with his loyalty to GT, saw him lost to us. He's done very well at Adelaide, I'm told.
.
Gun recruiter eh? Fantastic players that you list that Bundy gained us.

HOWEVER, Bundy joined us as an assistant coach in October 2001 from Port Adelaide where he was ruck coach, and yes pushed for South Australian AFL based players like Cain Ackland.

Hamill, Gehrig, Voss and Lawrence were gained at the end of 2000. So clearly he had nothing to do with getting them as they had already played a season with us before he arrived!

And then lets look at the kids. Bundy was hired in October 2001, and so I am not sure when he physically arrived to start work. But while the 2001 draft was excellent for us I think it is far-fetched in the extreme that Bundy who was only a ruck coach prior would have been that influential even if he had of started work prior to the 2001 draft.

And after 2001 our recruiting of kids became pretty pathetic, and is a dark hole that the Saints have only became better at in recent seasons. Was that due to Bundy having established himself at the club?


As already mentioned in the post above he left the Crows in 2012. Note also that Neil Craig over-ruled Bundy on Dangerfield, and the Crows gained Dangerfield as the result.

Where did he go? Yes he moved on the become part of the Pies Recruiting Department. How has the Pie's recruiting been going since Bundy arrived?


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694216Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

Easy to make an argument by being highly selective. How's Adelaide going? Do you think that's instant, or could it be the result of good recruiting years ago that has borne fruit in the past two years? Was our improvement in 2016 due to recruiting in 2015 or does it go back five years? By the time we contend, it will be the fruit of foundations laid some seven to eight years earlier. A bit like Adelaide now. I think Collingwood has done at least as well as we have over the past five years, even though they've had no luck with injuries in the form of Scharenberg and Freeman, who by the way, we thought was good enough to take off their hands. Anyway, the point of the thread was to get the best available recruiter, not a thread about the merits of Matt Rendell. And FYI he was involved in the 2001 draft. Sorry it doesn't fit your argument. From personal observation he'd certainly be better than the current numpty.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694221Post evertonfc »

Bit of selective memory being exercised here.

John Beveridge wasn't a great recruiter. He seemed to be given "guru" status due to longevity rather than anything else. Repeatedly over-reached and over-estimated his ability on draft day.

After many years of questionable calls and dining out on the 2001 draft (Dal, Maguire and Monty), his Brad Howard debacle in 2006 was the last straw for me (and many on this board) - considering nobody had heard of him while Chris Dawes, Eric MacKenzie, Ricky Petterd, Kurt Tippett, Alwyn Davey and Todd Goldstein all went in the next 10 picks.

Rendell was nothing special. He wasn't always the talent spotter, though. More a list manager at St Kilda. He sat in the coaches box with GT.

Honestly, Geelong are good at developing talent for a few reasons:
- Correct cultural alignment (getting the right attitude from day one)
- Elite development pathway (VFL reserves, VFL, AFL)
- Teaching coaches (Bomber Thompson is the best at this, Chris Scott not far behind)
- Excellent in-house leadership
- Wells is an excellent spotter of talent
Last edited by evertonfc on Fri 18 Aug 2017 6:45pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694223Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:Easy to make an argument by being highly selective..
Yes my mistake to only look at players gained after he actually commenced duties at the Saints. :roll:
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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694224Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:El. And FYI he was involved in the 2001 draft. Sorry it doesn't fit your argument. .
Yes drafting is easy. Get hired in mid-October and then with absolutely no experience, or background, as a recruiter let alone the full-time hours that an actual recruiter would have put in over the 12 months leading up to a draft, and yet the next month you are the guy calling the shots in recruiting at the Saints, despite that he was hired as an assistant coach. :roll:

If that is your argument. I rest my case!.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694225Post saintsRrising »

evertonfc wrote:Bit of selective memory being exercised here.


Rendell was nothing special. He wasn't always the talent spotter, though. More a list manager at St Kilda. He sat in the coaches box with GT.
Rendell was hired as an assistant coach and match day tactician. List manager was not his role., even if he chipped in after he joined the saints. GT took over the List Manager role at the Saints in that era.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694229Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

Never said he called the shots. He had significant input. At that time Bevo was the only official employee in recruiting. He WAS the recruiting department, aided by part timers, hangers on, and internal staff. Do you honestly think coaching staff didn't have an input in those days! It's a bit different now, where most clubs have at least half a dozen full timers. I was impressed by his knowledge of players, both juniors and those from other clubs. I wonder why a top club like Adelaide put him on in recruiting? Do you also suggest that all our recruiting post 2001 was a failure? I rest my case.m


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694233Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote: Do you also suggest that all our recruiting post 2001 was a failure? I rest my case.m
Our drafting of players in the draft was poor after 2001. Go and look. Apart from BJ who was an obvious No 1 our draft performance over many drafts from the 2002 draft on was very poor.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694236Post skeptic »

Legendary wrote:Easy to forget that between 2003 and 2005 we: traded high picks for Barry Brooks and Fergus Watts, used pick 33 on Cain Ackland, pick 49 on Mark McGough, elevated Dylan Pfitzner and Nick Stone from the rookie list, selected Raph Clarke with pick 8, Craig Callaghan with pick 65, Michael Rix with pick 49, Phil Raymond with pick 63 and delisted Brent Guerra for nothing...

By the way, mate - Matt Rendell wasn't in charge of recruiting at the Saints (John Beveridge was) and he resigned from Adelaide in 2012 (5 years ago).
Forgive me for zeroing in on particular parts of your post.

It has always really irritated me when ppl criticise the selections of Cain Acland and Mark McGough...
Look at the draft...
Cain Acland went at 33 and Mark McGough at 49... so who were the super stars we missed by taking them?

Ok Ivan Maric went at 40 but with the loss of Knobel and our push for the 05 flag, we needed a ready made ruck then and Cain had a good season that year.

Mark LeCras went at 37 but we didn't him that type of player...

Who else??!!!
Jayden Attard
Daniel Bryan
Luke McGuane

Matthew Egan and Chris Knights were about the only other players in that whole draft that amounted to anything.

The fact is we correctly identified that draft as an especially weak one after the top end was gone.

Callaghan was a decent pick for us til he got injured and lost his zip

Brooks and Watts looked really good too until they had their major injuries

Raph Clarke wasn't the high end slider Cyril type we hoped him to be... but the stars of that draft went before him.
After went Brent Stanton, Troy Chaplin, David Mundy, Jed Adcock, Zac Dawson... Shane Tuck at 73 - 6 handy players there but quite literally that is it
More or less I'd say Raph was about the 10th best player that draft. Mundy and Chaplain were the big losses but they went 7 & 12 picks later

It's just not the disaster ppl make it out to be


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694242Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

saintsRrising wrote:
GregPackhamsHeadband wrote: Do you also suggest that all our recruiting post 2001 was a failure? I rest my case.m
Our drafting of players in the draft was poor after 2001. Go and look. Apart from BJ who was an obvious No 1 our draft performance over many drafts from the 2002 draft on was very poor.
Refer to skeptic's post. Very poor? I hope you don't do your own performance reviews. Sam Fisher? What a disaster, eh? Sam Gilbert? David Armitage? Andrew McQualter. A handy player. Remember after 2003 our draft position was not strong for 10 years. I know Rendell wasn't there after 2006, but we still got "very poor" players like Jack Steven, Ben McEvoy, Rhys Stanley and Tom Lynch. :roll:


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694292Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
GregPackhamsHeadband wrote: Do you also suggest that all our recruiting post 2001 was a failure? I rest my case.m
Our drafting of players in the draft was poor after 2001. Go and look. Apart from BJ who was an obvious No 1 our draft performance over many drafts from the 2002 draft on was very poor.
Refer to skeptic's post. Very poor? I hope you don't do your own performance reviews. Sam Fisher? What a disaster, eh? Sam Gilbert? David Armitage? Andrew McQualter. A handy player. Remember after 2003 our draft position was not strong for 10 years. I know Rendell wasn't there after 2006, but we still got "very poor" players like Jack Steven, Ben McEvoy, Rhys Stanley and Tom Lynch. :roll:
.


You are a real cherry picker are you not. List all the reasonable picks and none of the misses.

In a race you are not running fast unless you are running faster than everyone else.

Yes poor. You look at all the players taken and assess worth for the picks expended. Overall we under-performed. Being poor does not mean getting every pick wrong. Being poor means not doing better than the average worth of your picks. You get ahead by out-performing the other clubs. Did we out-perform?

You also are forgetting all about the rookie draft, a draft that Saints did not mine that well. We had Milne and Moyle in 99 then very little in the naughties except Geary and Jones in 2006 till more recently.

Teams like the Crows and Swans (and yes they have advantages including the Academy Rort) are where they are at present in large part as they have out-performed with their picks that they have had. The Hawks had some great early picks but they continued to build with good value from their later picks and yes some very good trades and the benefit of FA coming along at the right time to maintian their reign. The Hawks like every club had some howlers like Thorp. But what matters is how well you draft on average year in, year out.

.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694297Post saintsRrising »

skeptic wrote: Brooks and Watts looked really good too until they had their major injuries
Is this the same Barry Brooks that played 10 games in 4 seasons?

Yes he got injured, but his attitude was his biggest problem.

In 2004, Brooks was pulled out of all football for three weeks to get his head right.

"We're not prepared to put him on the park until we're convinced he's prepared to have a red-hot crack," Thomas told the Herald Sun at the time.

"We've told him that his efforts have been unacceptable.

"You can't pick and choose what level you put in. It's got to be 100 per cent.

"The penny will drop with him soon"
.

Watts. Yes in isolation pick him up. But we already had Kosi. How many big slow power marking forwards can you play in the one team? I mean if there is one thing that has frustrated me in recent drafts it is our obsession with drafting small forward after small forward. So when you are trading in, trade for what you really need.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694306Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

We're all cherry pockets, SR. Including you and me. It's called confirmation bias.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694330Post saintsRrising »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:We're all cherry pockets, SR. Including you and me. It's called confirmation bias.

Look we agree on one thing, our current recruiters inclusive of Elshaugh are not as good as the best in the AFL, and that means that the Saints are competing with one hand tied behind our backs at present.

They have also departed from some clearly stated aspects. For example I remember quite clearly it being stated that we would draft better users of the ball, and in particular kicking. Well WTF happened to that intent? Good field kicking in the main is not on display from our kids.

Obviously Billings is an exception.

From our mature aged players Carlisle and Membrey.

How many games this year has our ability to win been vitally affected from poor kicking and/or kicking on goal? Sadly most.

You can go through our players one by one and if you look at them individually you can say yes he is an AFL player, or potential AFL player. BUT put them together as a team and the poor ball use compounds to make us less competitive as a team that we should be, and as we need to be.

We still have the foundations of a rebuild. BUT it is vital that our recruiters and traders address the ball use and class use in our 22. We need more elites (we currently have not the one) and more better users of the ball. Get several such players and you will find that flawed players will not matter as much.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694346Post skeptic »

saintsRrising wrote:
skeptic wrote: Brooks and Watts looked really good too until they had their major injuries
Is this the same Barry Brooks that played 10 games in 4 seasons?

Yes he got injured, but his attitude was his biggest problem.

In 2004, Brooks was pulled out of all football for three weeks to get his head right.

"We're not prepared to put him on the park until we're convinced he's prepared to have a red-hot crack," Thomas told the Herald Sun at the time.

"We've told him that his efforts have been unacceptable.

"You can't pick and choose what level you put in. It's got to be 100 per cent.

"The penny will drop with him soon"
.

Watts. Yes in isolation pick him up. But we already had Kosi. How many big slow power marking forwards can you play in the one team? I mean if there is one thing that has frustrated me in recent drafts it is our obsession with drafting small forward after small forward. So when you are trading in, trade for what you really need.
Wasn't that post his reco though?

He came back never looking even as remotely promising as pre-injury.

IIRC, what you've posted above is in reference to the fact that the coaching team felt he didn't have the confidence in his knee to hit the contest... evidenced especially clearly in that infamous game vs Port in Tassie.

Correct?


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694352Post Joffa Burns »

GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:There's been a lot of speculation about who we need on field in order to take the next step. Yes, Kelly or Martin would be great, just what we need for the playing list. What of the people who pick those who will represent us? I say we make a huge play for one of the top two recruiters in the game, Kinnear Beatson from the swines, or preferably, the number one man, Stephen Wells from Geelong. I remember our own John Peake, who worked under Wells before becoming our chief, spoke with awe of Wells ability to make good long term calls on players.

I know the cats had some luck with father son pick ups, but they have absorbed the loss of a dozen A grade players in the last 6 years with barely a hiccough. Even missing the finals in 2015 was turned into a plus with the acquisition of Dangerfield. Smart trading and recruiting. The only other top ten pick they've had since 2006 was used on Joel Selwood. Since then, they've traded and developed players very shrewdly. Amazingly, they've stayed at or near the top for a decade, defying conventional wisdom that dictates the best way to rebuild is through the draft. Rather than rebuild, the cats are in constant renovation mode.

Same with the Swines. They have an uncanny ability to pluck players from local comps, the VFL and the like, and turn them into good players. Dane Rampe springs to mind. Again, the Academy and the COLA helped, but they keep finding gems where no one else is looking. If they make it again this year, that will be finals 12 times in the past 13 years. Extraordinary. It starts with recruiting. They have great development sysystems, but you can't make strawberry jam from pig shyte.

I believe we had a gun recruiter in Matt "Bundy" Rendell. A bit of an eccentric, he had a great eye for player potential. Our record in recruiting during the GT era, especially in the trading area was outstanding. Remember, apart from high draft picks, we got Hamill, Gehrig, Penny, Black, Voss, Lawrence, and a real Bundy special (despite GT's protests), Guerra. Coupled with good draft pinches in Dal, Goose and Joey, we did exceptionally well. We've done nowhere near as well since. Unfortunately, Bundy had a habit of giving very direct feedback to whoever required it, no matter what their position or standing in the club. That, coupled with his loyalty to GT, saw him lost to us. He's done very well at Adelaide, I'm told.

So let's spend the dough where it may end up giving us the best return. When you consider every draft choice costs you a minimum of 350K, it makes sense to have the best making the choices. If we have the spare change, and the AFL allows it, I say we go for it.
Can't say I agree our recruiting was so great in the early 2000 period.
Roo was always rated #1 in his draft as was BJ in his.
Kosi was serviceable at #2 but in retro wouldn't have gone top 5, players like Kerr and Petrie had far superior careers.

Dal at 13 and Goose at 23 (Stevie J one pick after Goose) were hardly steals and considering we took Ball at #2 and X at #5 in the greatest draft of all time I'd say we at best broke even if not lost in 01 given we had the cream picks of a super draft.

We also blew #17 on Heath Black and the player picked in that slot was Pops Kelly.

The only real steals were Joey and later Chips at #55.


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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694353Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

saintsRrising wrote:
GregPackhamsHeadband wrote:We're all cherry pockets, SR. Including you and me. It's called confirmation bias.

Look we agree on one thing, our current recruiters inclusive of Elshaugh are not as good as the best in the AFL, and that means that the Saints are competing with one hand tied behind our backs at present.

They have also departed from some clearly stated aspects. For example I remember quite clearly it being stated that we would draft better users of the ball, and in particular kicking. Well WTF happened to that intent? Good field kicking in the main is not on display from our kids.

Obviously Billings is an exception.

From our mature aged players Carlisle and Membrey.

How many games this year has our ability to win been vitally affected from poor kicking and/or kicking on goal? Sadly most.

You can go through our players one by one and if you look at them individually you can say yes he is an AFL player, or potential AFL player. BUT put them together as a team and the poor ball use compounds to make us less competitive as a team that we should be, and as we need to be.

We still have the foundations of a rebuild. BUT it is vital that our recruiters and traders address the ball use and class use in our 22. We need more elites (we currently have not the one) and more better users of the ball. Get several such players and you will find that flawed players will not matter as much.
I think this post shows that we are actually in furious agreement, apart from the Rendell red herring. As you point out, something has gone off track with our stated strategy. Our aim for long term stability, based on Geelong's foundation strategies seems to have foundered. I hope the announcement that AR will get an extension soon is not merely a brave statement aimed at showing we are stable and on track. I don't think we are. There have been successes and I believe AR has generally done a good job trying to repair a despairing and disjointed list he inherited.

I believe the recruiters are as important to a club's success as anyone in the place. Like scientific tests, if you put rubbish data in, you'll get rubbish out. Not much the coaches can do about it. The Watters/Pelchen years were a disaster we are still paying for. As is our way at the saints, we usually get what we can afford, rather than what we need. Time to fish the trout out of the pond and give someone else a try.


I think you're pretty tough, don't I?
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SaintPav
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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694364Post SaintPav »

Trout still has hands on what could be potentially picks 6 and 7.

He could still do some damage and I don't mean that in a good way.


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GregPackhamsHeadband
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Re: Recruiting priority. Get Wells or Beatson!

Post: # 1694365Post GregPackhamsHeadband »

That's exactly my fear, SP. I'd rather see us trade them, given his track record, tbh. Kelly, Smith, Hopper, Lever and Whitfield are all said to be gettable. Any two of those would see us become a real threat.


I think you're pretty tough, don't I?
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