Vindication

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skeptic
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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721870Post skeptic »

portosaint wrote: There are quite a lot of threads on here where the criticism of our coaching is just palmed off as being negative and not constructive. We are just armchair coaches, what would we know, etc. There is no room for criticism in some peoples eyes. There are also scathing attacks on some of our younger players which I don't find justified, and I believe that coaching was our main reason for this. I have been a staunch defender of giving some of our youngsters time, and I think my posting history would show this.

Surprisingly, my post was written with the intention of being largely positive. We are not world beaters and yes, our scoring is well down. I mentioned our ball use inside 50 in my post.

My whole point was and is, we looked so much better with a different game style. The guys took risks, the ball use was better, the kids got a chance to show they can play. They were generally exciting to watch and the performance speaks volumes for the way the coaches approached this game as opposed to the first four.

'Vindicated' might have been a strong word, but it is mind boggling to think that we MAY have snatched an extra win or at the very least have better percentage had our coaches identified this sooner. We all saw it... But what would we know?

I find it strange that out of all the positives in my post, people are hanging on one word. If anyone thinks the criticism of our coaching has not been construed as negative and just plain whining, they are reading a different forum to me.

I don't disagree with the majority of what you've written... heck a handful of forumites from Bluthy (bless him should he come back), Con and myself have been expressing concerns about the more conservative aspects of Richo's style since early last year, and his performance has been under reasonable scrutiny since our disappointing finish to last season and our lacklustre preseason.

Maybe I am reading a different forum but I would have thought over the last 4 months the majority of feedback around the coaching has been more negative then positive (and pbly rightly so). I'm sure there's been some spirited debate on the topic no doubt but yes that aspect of your post caught my attention.

Anyway, no disagreements from me about the rest of what you've written


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721887Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....


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skeptic
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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721889Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....
Come on Tef, that’s a ridiculous response and surely you see it..

Who said that you shouldn’t be questioning things?

It’s a rare and damning shadow on this forum when I somehow fall into the role of positivity and cheerleader.

Let me ask you this... do you really advocate for a scorch the earth approach to our current predicament?


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721913Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....
Come on Tef, that’s a ridiculous response and surely you see it..

Who said that you shouldn’t be questioning things?

It’s a rare and damning shadow on this forum when I somehow fall into the role of positivity and cheerleader.

Let me ask you this... do you really advocate for a scorch the earth approach to our current predicament?
Let’s be serious - 2-3 games this year we’ve won inside 50’s for a 17% conversion rate?? It’s nit a new thing have been seeing this and saying this for years our forward of centre set up and delivery is an abomination
How long have people screamed “recruit mids - preferably this who can kick?”
5 years in (not 1) to this so called rebuild and we are now letting players HAVE to tell the head coach h it ain’t working
Ridiculous suggestions by coach and board at start of season that we are “top 4” material - come off it ANYONE with half a brain knew that was rubbish- yes, sell memberships, but don’t treat us all like fools?? Perhaps they’ll now sell more more memberships now that people might see a Coffield /Clarke offering a glimpse of some future midfield skill??
Shame they didn’t listen some years earlier and recruit accordingly?
Scorched earth?? Keep getting 15k to games and we’ll be looking for a SOS strategy - can we afford to do nothing ?


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721919Post Con Gorozidis »

We beat GWS last season and still finished 11th so anyone who thinks Saturday is a new dawn is kidding themselves.

The cold had reality is we are worse than last year and if we lose this week then any chance of making the 8 is already snuffed out.

The club is still in crisis.

We should have an idea where we stand by the bye.
Plenty of winnable games with similar standard teams. Pies, Demons, Suns all coming up.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721959Post Scollop »

We controlled a large part of the game yesterday. We clearly worked harder than them and our inside 50's are an indication of this. We all know they have elite talent and a lot of classy players, but most of them are cocky and don't work hard enough. We're all getting excited by a draw against GWS, but look ahead and let's assume they finish 5-8 and get knocked out in week 1 of finals.

Last year we beat the eventual premiers so seriously, what the hell have GWS achieved and how significant will a draw against Them be if they have another poor finish? I hope our players don't get ahead of themselves like they did after we beat Richmond


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721986Post The Fireman »

Scollop wrote:We controlled a large part of the game yesterday. We clearly worked harder than them and our inside 50's are an indication of this. We all know they have elite talent and a lot of classy players, but most of them are cocky and don't work hard enough. We're all getting excited by a draw against GWS, but look ahead and let's assume they finish 5-8 and get knocked out in week 1 of finals.

Last year we beat the eventual premiers so seriously, what the hell have GWS achieved and how significant will a draw against Them be if they have another poor finish? I hope our players don't get ahead of themselves like they did after we beat Richmond
I think you are missing what happened...we have been absolutely shite and all of a sudden we show some form and draw with a flag fav....we are happy with this improvement...do you really think that is getting ahead of ourselves ?? :shock:


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1721999Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....
Come on Tef, that’s a ridiculous response and surely you see it..

Who said that you shouldn’t be questioning things?

It’s a rare and damning shadow on this forum when I somehow fall into the role of positivity and cheerleader.

Let me ask you this... do you really advocate for a scorch the earth approach to our current predicament?
Let’s be serious - 2-3 games this year we’ve won inside 50’s for a 17% conversion rate?? It’s nit a new thing have been seeing this and saying this for years our forward of centre set up and delivery is an abomination
How long have people screamed “recruit mids - preferably this who can kick?”
5 years in (not 1) to this so called rebuild and we are now letting players HAVE to tell the head coach h it ain’t working
Ridiculous suggestions by coach and board at start of season that we are “top 4” material - come off it ANYONE with half a brain knew that was rubbish- yes, sell memberships, but don’t treat us all like fools?? Perhaps they’ll now sell more more memberships now that people might see a Coffield /Clarke offering a glimpse of some future midfield skill??
Shame they didn’t listen some years earlier and recruit accordingly?
Scorched earth?? Keep getting 15k to games and we’ll be looking for a SOS strategy - can we afford to do nothing ?
So put it on the table...

What do you want to see happen? Exactly.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722000Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....
Come on Tef, that’s a ridiculous response and surely you see it..

Who said that you shouldn’t be questioning things?

It’s a rare and damning shadow on this forum when I somehow fall into the role of positivity and cheerleader.

Let me ask you this... do you really advocate for a scorch the earth approach to our current predicament?
Let’s be serious - 2-3 games this year we’ve won inside 50’s for a 17% conversion rate?? It’s nit a new thing have been seeing this and saying this for years our forward of centre set up and delivery is an abomination
How long have people screamed “recruit mids - preferably this who can kick?”
5 years in (not 1) to this so called rebuild and we are now letting players HAVE to tell the head coach h it ain’t working
Ridiculous suggestions by coach and board at start of season that we are “top 4” material - come off it ANYONE with half a brain knew that was rubbish- yes, sell memberships, but don’t treat us all like fools?? Perhaps they’ll now sell more more memberships now that people might see a Coffield /Clarke offering a glimpse of some future midfield skill??
Shame they didn’t listen some years earlier and recruit accordingly?
Scorched earth?? Keep getting 15k to games and we’ll be looking for a SOS strategy - can we afford to do nothing ?
So put it on the table...

What do you want to see happen? Exactly.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722013Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote:
skeptic wrote:I was gonna say... vindicated from what?

I don’t think there is a person on this forum that legitimately thought things were going well or wasn’t having major doubts on Richo’s coaching ability.

Some of us just didn’t think that all of:
- sack the coach, the assistants trainers etc
- get rid of the board completely
- trade every player on the list for whatever you can get for them
- relocate to Tasmania and the MCG

We’re legitimate, well thought out viable responses to our current predicament. The hysteria here has been something to behold.
5 years into a rebuild with last years spooners in North flying past us, a deplorable game plan and skill level forward of 50 and Coffield our most composed mid to enter in 5 years and this 1 solid draw puts the "hysteria" of questioning the football dept, board and recruiters to rest?? I don't think so but it's 'oh so St kilda' to settle for near enough I suppose ..... explains 1 flag in 100+ years....
Come on Tef, that’s a ridiculous response and surely you see it..

Who said that you shouldn’t be questioning things?

It’s a rare and damning shadow on this forum when I somehow fall into the role of positivity and cheerleader.

Let me ask you this... do you really advocate for a scorch the earth approach to our current predicament?
Let’s be serious - 2-3 games this year we’ve won inside 50’s for a 17% conversion rate?? It’s nit a new thing have been seeing this and saying this for years our forward of centre set up and delivery is an abomination
How long have people screamed “recruit mids - preferably this who can kick?”
5 years in (not 1) to this so called rebuild and we are now letting players HAVE to tell the head coach h it ain’t working
Ridiculous suggestions by coach and board at start of season that we are “top 4” material - come off it ANYONE with half a brain knew that was rubbish- yes, sell memberships, but don’t treat us all like fools?? Perhaps they’ll now sell more more memberships now that people might see a Coffield /Clarke offering a glimpse of some future midfield skill??
Shame they didn’t listen some years earlier and recruit accordingly?
Scorched earth?? Keep getting 15k to games and we’ll be looking for a SOS strategy - can we afford to do nothing ?
So put it on the table...

What do you want to see happen? Exactly.
I think I already have in other threads but anyway once more with feeling!
At a minimum I’d like a full football Dept review IF this season continues on its trajectory (I expect it will as we just don’t have enough quality cattle and certainly not with skills to match).
This review must include ALL coaching positions as well as an overhaul of player recruitment and development (development a worry for some time).
In the event the head coach (who was just extended for 2 years and why is commercial insanity..) is sacked I’d like to see some responsibility shown at Board level and the genius who employed this strategy to start their own transition out of the place.
I remain unconvinced Summers hasn’t had his time but in the interest of scorched earth.... I’ll start Year 1 with the football Dept and work through from there
I’m relatively cheap and happy to oversee the whole shebang from Saintsational.com to save time on consultancy meeting fees.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722014Post saynta »

Wow, but no thanks. :shock: :wink:


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722020Post Moods »

saynta wrote:Bit of a goose?

I would report the prick and have him thrown out.
For what? Calling someone useless? Good luck.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722038Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote: I think I already have in other threads but anyway once more with feeling!
At a minimum I’d like a full football Dept review IF this season continues on its trajectory (I expect it will as we just don’t have enough quality cattle and certainly not with skills to match).
This review must include ALL coaching positions as well as an overhaul of player recruitment and development (development a worry for some time).
In the event the head coach (who was just extended for 2 years and why is commercial insanity..) is sacked I’d like to see some responsibility shown at Board level and the genius who employed this strategy to start their own transition out of the place.
I remain unconvinced Summers hasn’t had his time but in the interest of scorched earth.... I’ll start Year 1 with the football Dept and work through from there
I’m relatively cheap and happy to oversee the whole shebang from Saintsational.com to save time on consultancy meeting fees.
See here's the problem... what about this post can be considered as hysterical or scorching?

From where I sit, this is a very calm and measured response to our current situation. You're not even demanding to sack the coach which practically about half the forum has demanded at one point or another over the last month.

So that brings me to the question... why are you responding to me?

At best, I can surmise that you've interpreted my thoughts on not overreacting to mean that we shouldn't question anything!?

Far from my position. I've been critical of Richo's conservative selection style, tendency to play favourites, lack of experimentation on the ground and his inability to prepare the club psychologically for a long time now.
Have certainly suggested on multiple occasions that extending his tenure was a mistake and as for your suggestion about reviewing the recruiting... doubt anyone in the country can reasonably argue otherwise.

I don't mind the board however... i think they've done a great job stabilising us off-field, getting us back to Moorabbin, increasing membership. I'm critical of the Richo decision but suspect that they anticipated a stall with Roo and Monty gone most because of our lack of on-field leadership hence I don't think they wanted Richo to compromise his rebuild and tried to take the pressure off. It's bold and they'll live/die by it.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722065Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote:
Teflon wrote: I think I already have in other threads but anyway once more with feeling!
At a minimum I’d like a full football Dept review IF this season continues on its trajectory (I expect it will as we just don’t have enough quality cattle and certainly not with skills to match).
This review must include ALL coaching positions as well as an overhaul of player recruitment and development (development a worry for some time).
In the event the head coach (who was just extended for 2 years and why is commercial insanity..) is sacked I’d like to see some responsibility shown at Board level and the genius who employed this strategy to start their own transition out of the place.
I remain unconvinced Summers hasn’t had his time but in the interest of scorched earth.... I’ll start Year 1 with the football Dept and work through from there
I’m relatively cheap and happy to oversee the whole shebang from Saintsational.com to save time on consultancy meeting fees.
See here's the problem... what about this post can be considered as hysterical or scorching?

From where I sit, this is a very calm and measured response to our current situation. You're not even demanding to sack the coach which practically about half the forum has demanded at one point or another over the last month.

So that brings me to the question... why are you responding to me?

At best, I can surmise that you've interpreted my thoughts on not overreacting to mean that we shouldn't question anything!?

Far from my position. I've been critical of Richo's conservative selection style, tendency to play favourites, lack of experimentation on the ground and his inability to prepare the club psychologically for a long time now.
Have certainly suggested on multiple occasions that extending his tenure was a mistake and as for your suggestion about reviewing the recruiting... doubt anyone in the country can reasonably argue otherwise.

I don't mind the board however... i think they've done a great job stabilising us off-field, getting us back to Moorabbin, increasing membership. I'm critical of the Richo decision but suspect that they anticipated a stall with Roo and Monty gone most because of our lack of on-field leadership hence I don't think they wanted Richo to compromise his rebuild and tried to take the pressure off. It's bold and they'll live/die by it.
Thank you Skeptic I agree, quite measured.
I think the key reason for my response was:
1. What did constitute "scorched earth"? and again the above isn't that
2. You did ask me to outline what I wanted to see

I agree Board has us back at Moorabbin - I'm still concerned at their clear lack of oversight or reality with respect to football matters but time will tell how that plays out for them


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722067Post Teflon »

saynta wrote:Wow, but no thanks. :shock: :wink:
Half my going rate too.....
But anyway it won't matter.....time will do the deal for us :wink:


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722071Post Scollop »

The Fireman wrote:
Scollop wrote:We controlled a large part of the game yesterday. We clearly worked harder than them and our inside 50's are an indication of this. We all know they have elite talent and a lot of classy players, but most of them are cocky and don't work hard enough. We're all getting excited by a draw against GWS, but look ahead and let's assume they finish 5-8 and get knocked out in week 1 of finals.

Last year we beat the eventual premiers so seriously, what the hell have GWS achieved and how significant will a draw against Them be if they have another poor finish? I hope our players don't get ahead of themselves like they did after we beat Richmond
I think you are missing what happened...we have been absolutely shite and all of a sudden we show some form and draw with a flag fav....we are happy with this improvement...do you really think that is getting ahead of ourselves ?? :shock:
I'm ecstatic at the improvement. I agree that there's a lot to be optimistic about, especially considering the contributions of White, Long, Coffield and Clark. Was terrific being there to support the team and the club, but I had a strange feeling that perhaps outsiders ( or unbiased observers ) might not be as excited as we are and that the footy department should be demanding a lot more from our guys when they dominate large periods of play like we did on Saturday.

I just finished watching Talking Footy and 'the duck' (Wayne Carey) had some interesting observations reagding GWS. He basically saw what I saw. The Giants have a lot of cocky talented players who are yet to achieve anything of significance; are yet to show that they can work hard for each other; and are yet to prove that they are the so called flag favourites that the bookies and some in the media want you to believe.

The other point I was trying to make, but I didn't communicate too well, is that after the Richmond win last year we got ahead of ourselves a little. The results in late 2017 proved we were not ready to contend and yet the spin at the start of this year had us finishing top 4. We started looking towards September instead of the footy department focussing on development and working out which players are likely to help us have sustained success.

Probably the main reason some fans were so critical of the club early this year was that the spin did not match the results from last year. Not saying we should accept losses or aim for mediocrity. Just would have been happier if the footy department was a tad more realistic at the start of this year and the theme should have been; young blokes will take time and we can't bank on consistency just yet.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722083Post stonecold »

Con Gorozidis wrote:We beat GWS last season and still finished 11th so anyone who thinks Saturday is a new dawn is kidding themselves.

The cold had reality is we are worse than last year and if we lose this week then any chance of making the 8 is already snuffed out.

The club is still in crisis.

We should have an idea where we stand by the bye.
Plenty of winnable games with similar standard teams. Pies, Demons, Suns all coming up.
Of course we are worse than last year, lost over 600 games of experience!!!!!

Anyone who thought we were going to be better was kidding themselves!!!!!

The Club is not in crisis!!!!!

Get a grip Connie Boy!!!!!


'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!

We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722093Post saynta »

Moods wrote:
saynta wrote:Bit of a goose?

I would report the prick and have him thrown out.
For what? Calling someone useless? Good luck.

For abuse. :evil:


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722095Post bigred »

So when can we do the saintsational review of the football department.

Hooly dooly that would be funny.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722098Post parkeysainter »

Crisis?
The only crisis is between some Saints supporters ears.


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722124Post The Recruit »

The Fireman wrote:
portosaint wrote:
The Fireman wrote:umm..what is an indigenous spark ?
Really?
yeah, just wondering..is it possible to have an anglo saxon spark ?
No it isnt


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722151Post Teflon »

parkeysainter wrote:Crisis?
The only crisis is between some Saints supporters ears.
I’m with you - it’s all going to plan!!!

5 years into a rebuild and cellar dwelling as a destination club!!

Nothing to see here... :roll:


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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722201Post The Fireman »

The Recruit wrote:
The Fireman wrote:
portosaint wrote:
The Fireman wrote:umm..what is an indigenous spark ?
Really?
yeah, just wondering..is it possible to have an anglo saxon spark ?
No it isnt
why?


portosaint
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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722210Post portosaint »

The Fireman wrote:
The Recruit wrote:
The Fireman wrote:
portosaint wrote:
The Fireman wrote:umm..what is an indigenous spark ?
Really?
yeah, just wondering..is it possible to have an anglo saxon spark ?
No it isnt
why?
Don't worry about it.

You're either watching with your eyes closed for the past 20 years, ingnorant, or just trying to start some kind of reverse racism argument.


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asiu
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Re: Vindication

Post: # 1722211Post asiu »

i organised my brother to burn down the overgrowth on the empty block next door to the Fletchers house
when we were kids
... is that the indigenous spark
or
seeing i was fathered by a white anglo psychopath
... was it the anglo spark

regardless
the block was razed


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.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.

.tipara waranta kani nina-tu.
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