Player Development: St Kilda v Melbourne

[Sanctorum]

It was all that long ago that St Kilda and Melbourne were considered to be line ball to progress up the ladder. In fact, St Kilda even boasted that their list was good enough to challenge for a top four spot, if not a premiership, in 2018.

Close to the half-way mark of the 2018 season, we now know that St Kilda have not "walked the talk", and instead, Melbourne are a genuine chance to play finals this year.

Looking at the 2 lists, I have calculated that of the 17 players aged 21 to 23 right now, the average number of games in this age group as follows:

St Kilda - 26.18
Melbourne - 34

That is a massive difference which to me is an indictment of the coaches and player development staff of the St Kilda FC.

I have said this before, the big problem St Kilda has is developing their young talent - our club for reasons unknown seem to take far longer than other teams, especially the traditional top teams, to bring early draft picks to elite level. Mark McClure during the week highlighted the problem with Paddy McCartin's fitness, and he said that there were many players with diabetes that played without complications. If diabetes is considered to be an impediment to Paddy developing a "tank", and he certainly lacks any sign of getting one, then why did St Kilda take him with Pick 1 in 2014?

Notwithstanding last nights great effort in the last quarter (was it symbolic that the Saints played their best quarter of football in 2018 with the skipper on the bench??), our cub needs to take a long hard look at the player development and fitness staff, and take urgent remedial action.

I still believe that the Coaching Director has to shoulder full responsibility for this aspect, and having been at the Saints for 12 years, Danny Sexton should do the right thing and move on....

[saynta]

It was all that long ago that St Kilda and Melbourne were considered to be line ball to progress up the ladder. In fact, St Kilda even boasted that their list was good enough to challenge for a top four spot, if not a premiership, in 2018.

Close to the half-way mark of the 2018 season, we now know that St Kilda have not "walked the talk", and instead, Melbourne are a genuine chance to play finals this year.

Looking at the 2 lists, I have calculated that of the 17 players aged 21 to 23 right now, the average number of games in this age group as follows:

St Kilda - 26.18
Melbourne - 34

That is a massive difference which to me is an indictment of the coaches and player development staff of the St Kilda FC.

I have said this before, the big problem St Kilda has is developing their young talent - our club for reasons unknown seem to take far longer than other teams, especially the traditional top teams, to bring early draft picks to elite level. Mark McClure during the week highlighted the problem with Paddy McCartin's fitness, and he said that there were many players with diabetes that played without complications. If diabetes is considered to be an impediment to Paddy developing a "tank", and he certainly lacks any sign of getting one, then why did St Kilda take him with Pick 1 in 2014?

Notwithstanding last nights great effort in the last quarter (was it symbolic that the Saints played their best quarter of football in 2018 with the skipper on the bench??), our cub needs to take a long hard look at the player development and fitness staff, and take urgent remedial action.

I still believe that the Coaching Director has to shoulder full responsibility for this aspect, and having been at the Saints for 12 years, Danny Sexton should do the right thing and move on....

Sorta self destruct? As in mission impossible?

[chico2001]

Melbourne definitely ahead and they have depth as well. There is another thread regarding the saints recruiting and football management whereby posters have put up some good stats.

[Crossy66]

Melbourne definitely ahead and they have depth as well. There is another thread regarding the saints recruiting and football management whereby posters have put up some good stats.

Agree that player development needs looking at. Although its interesting that Rice and white, Marshall, austin have looked relatively comfortable when given the opportunity.
It seems that if you drill down, its the execution of skills under AFL standard pressure, that seems to be the issue. When the heat comes out of a game, our skill level lifts. When the heat is on, we butcher it. Executing under extreme pressure and having a simple game plan that stands up under pressure, i think, are the missing piece in the puzzle.

But i wouldnt be looking at Melbourne as a guide. As discussed in other posts, they have had far more early picks so have access to better talent as a result of been ordinary for a long time. I think we need to look at Sydney. I read an article a few weeks back that said they had 9 rookie selections in their senior team for a given week - thats extraordinary. What is it that they do differently? i suspect there is something in their development that Paul Roos also implemented at Melbourne. I am sure it would also include things also like Culture, standards, accountability, team values, Stability. All Hallmarks of premiership teams over the past decade.

[rodgerfox]

As I've said many times, developing players is a totally different kettle of fish when you have a good senior group around them.

They do.
We don't.

[Crossy66]

As I've said many times, developing players is a totally different kettle of fish when you have a good senior group around them.

They do.
We don't.

Do you mean "good" as in strictly footy skills / ability?

[CURLY]

Melbourne have also gone out and recruited ready now players Hibberd, Melksham, Vince, Frost and Lewis. We have recruited one in Carlisle.

[rodgerfox]

As I've said many times, developing players is a totally different kettle of fish when you have a good senior group around them.

They do.
We don't.

Do you mean "good" as in strictly footy skills / ability?

Good question.

In my opinion, it is guys who can teach and support younger players - but most importantly guys that consistently do the basics well.


We don't have that. And I don't think we'll be any good at all until we do.

[rodgerfox]

Melbourne have also gone out and recruited ready now players Hibberd, Melksham, Vince, Frost and Lewis. We have recruited one in Carlisle.

Absolutely. Hibberd, Lewis and Melksham have made an enormous difference to them.

With Jones in that senior group also, it's allowed the middle aged guys to flourish. They were pretty feeble up until last year. Talented, but feeble and stagnating. Add in the senior guys and suddenly they seem to be developing very well.

[rodgerfox]

Just to compare, we have Gilbert, Armitage, Geary, Brown and Steven. You could maybe add Savage and Hickey in as they're both 27 - but Hickey has only played 74 games of AFL footy.

Gilbo makes too many errors, ditto Geary. Armo appears physically cooked. Savage is a battler at best.


Brown is undervalued by fans, as he consistently does his job. Does the basics well. Jack is a gun.

So really, in my opinion until we add Hickey, Carlisle and another one or two (hopefully Roberton and Stevens) to that senior group our middle aged guys won't really play to their potential.

[stonecold]

Just to compare, we have Gilbert, Armitage, Geary, Brown and Steven. You could maybe add Savage and Hickey in as they're both 27 - but Hickey has only played 74 games of AFL footy.

Gilbo makes too many errors, ditto Geary. Armo appears physically cooked. Savage is a battler at best.


Brown is undervalued by fans, as he consistently does his job. Does the basics well. Jack is a gun.

So really, in my opinion until we add Hickey, Carlisle and another one or two (hopefully Roberton and Stevens) to that senior group our middle aged guys won't really play to their potential.

The fact that you even had to include Hickey sums up why we are so far behind, he is not even a certainty for selection, let alone a leader!!!!!

Your leaders should show the way, not shy away from the contest, if we are relying on Hickledik, we are f***ed!!!!!

Savage may be a battler, but he is way ahead of Hickey!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we will never be any good with Tom as our #1.....end of story!!!!!

[takeaway]

As I've said many times, developing players is a totally different kettle of fish when you have a good senior group around them.

They do.
We don't.

Good point. We lost the nucleus of our senior group last year. Melbourne have also been not challenging for finals for a lot longer than us. I am not so sure, with a reasonably uninjured list, that we are that much behind Melbourne - provided our kicking efficiency is reasonable.

[CURLY]

Just to compare, we have Gilbert, Armitage, Geary, Brown and Steven. You could maybe add Savage and Hickey in as they're both 27 - but Hickey has only played 74 games of AFL footy.

Gilbo makes too many errors, ditto Geary. Armo appears physically cooked. Savage is a battler at best.


Brown is undervalued by fans, as he consistently does his job. Does the basics well. Jack is a gun.

So really, in my opinion until we add Hickey, Carlisle and another one or two (hopefully Roberton and Stevens) to that senior group our middle aged guys won't really play to their potential.

The fact that you even had to include Hickey sums up why we are so far behind, he is not even a certainty for selection, let alone a leader!!!!!

Your leaders should show the way, not shy away from the contest, if we are relying on Hickledik, we are f***ed!!!!!

Savage may be a battler, but he is way ahead of Hickey!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we will never be any good with Tom as our #1.....end of story!!!!!

Its not about leaders it's about mature age players that can play their role immediately. I would be happy this season if we recruited a McVeigh type to play a role and add immediate results even for a season or two.

[Crossy66]

As I've said many times, developing players is a totally different kettle of fish when you have a good senior group around them.

They do.
We don't.

Do you mean "good" as in strictly footy skills / ability?

Good question.

In my opinion, it is guys who can teach and support younger players - but most importantly guys that consistently do the basics well.


We don't have that. And I don't think we'll be any good at all until we do.

So perhaps the void left by Riewoldt and Montagna's on field leadership hasnt been filled? Makes the need for a Sloane, Mcveigh type more valuable.
Perhaps outsource the leadership training to build better credentialled leaders. I think that was GT's greatest legacy.

[rodgerfox]

So perhaps the void left by Riewoldt and Montagna's on field leadership hasnt been filled? Makes the need for a Sloane, Mcveigh type more valuable.

Add Dempster into that too.


However they were always going to retire at some point. So the real gap is that Steven and Armo are the only two from Lyon's era that were blooded. And as such, 8 or so years later we have a huge vaccum of senior guys.


I guess my point is, that I don't see our current predicament as anyone's fault necessarily. It just is what it is. It's just what a rebuild looks like when you don't have a solid senior group of players at a club.

[saynta]

Yeah you can. I blame Ross the Flosser tosser.

[spert]

The Melbourne pres and board clearly were smarter and harder driven to achieve improvement and put the necessary pieces into place. We on the other hand have flopped around for 5 or more years and instead given a badly under-performing coach an extension to his contract and then came out and said we're top 4 material.

Headless chicken club..

[CURLY]

The Melbourne pres and board clearly were smarter and harder driven to achieve improvement and put the necessary pieces into place. We on the other hand have flopped around for 5 or more years and instead given a badly under-performing coach an extension to his contract and then came out and said we're top 4 material.

Headless chicken club..

Your joking aren't you? Melbourne had to eventually play some decent football after ten years in the wilderness.

[The_President]

Just to compare, we have Gilbert, Armitage, Geary, Brown and Steven. You could maybe add Savage and Hickey in as they're both 27 - but Hickey has only played 74 games of AFL footy.

Gilbo makes too many errors, ditto Geary. Armo appears physically cooked. Savage is a battler at best.


Brown is undervalued by fans, as he consistently does his job. Does the basics well. Jack is a gun.

So really, in my opinion until we add Hickey, Carlisle and another one or two (hopefully Roberton and Stevens) to that senior group our middle aged guys won't really play to their potential.

The fact that you even had to include Hickey sums up why we are so far behind, he is not even a certainty for selection, let alone a leader!!!!!

Your leaders should show the way, not shy away from the contest, if we are relying on Hickledik, we are f***ed!!!!!

Savage may be a battler, but he is way ahead of Hickey!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we will never be any good with Tom as our #1.....end of story!!!!!

Tom seems like a pretty automatic selection to me right now

[stonecold]

Just to compare, we have Gilbert, Armitage, Geary, Brown and Steven. You could maybe add Savage and Hickey in as they're both 27 - but Hickey has only played 74 games of AFL footy.

Gilbo makes too many errors, ditto Geary. Armo appears physically cooked. Savage is a battler at best.


Brown is undervalued by fans, as he consistently does his job. Does the basics well. Jack is a gun.

So really, in my opinion until we add Hickey, Carlisle and another one or two (hopefully Roberton and Stevens) to that senior group our middle aged guys won't really play to their potential.

The fact that you even had to include Hickey sums up why we are so far behind, he is not even a certainty for selection, let alone a leader!!!!!

Your leaders should show the way, not shy away from the contest, if we are relying on Hickledik, we are f***ed!!!!!

Savage may be a battler, but he is way ahead of Hickey!!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we will never be any good with Tom as our #1.....end of story!!!!!

Tom seems like a pretty automatic selection to me right now

Explains why we are so ordinary!!!!!

[BringBackMadDog]

Melbourne have also gone out and recruited ready now players Hibberd, Melksham, Vince, Frost and Lewis. We have recruited one in Carlisle.

Really?????? Brown, Roberton, Savage, Hickey, Steele, Bruce, Stevens, Membrey, Weller.

[freely]

To be fair, of ours I'd say only Carlisle, Brown and Stevens were proven.

[BringBackMadDog]

The Melbourne pres and board clearly were smarter and harder driven to achieve improvement and put the necessary pieces into place. We on the other hand have flopped around for 5 or more years and instead given a badly under-performing coach an extension to his contract and then came out and said we're top 4 material.

Headless chicken club..

Melbourne have been absolute s*** since 2006!!!!! They have blown more first round draft picks than most other clubs. They are now benefiting from 12 years of mediocrity. It is a bit unfair to say that we have been rebuilding for the same amount time, they have at least 5 years head start on us

[stonecold]

Too true Mad Dog, still the straight shooter, keep up the good work!!!!!

[parkeysainter]

When was the last time Melbourne played finals?