What was wrong with what Ross Lyon did?

[battye]

I was discussing this with a Fremantle supporter (very pleased to get RL obviously).

My argument was based on the contract he had with St Kilda lasting until the end of the 2012 season, and despite there being a get out clause it wasn't really within the spirit of the contract for him to use that clause in order to transfer to another club. I felt if St Kilda had the feeling that he would use that get out clause - other than for unforeseen non-football related reasons - then he would not have been given the contract extension back in 2008 or 2009 in the first place. So overall my feeling was that the more respectable thing for him to have done is wait until the end of 2012, thus fulfilling the contract and perhaps leaving the club on a better note.

The Fremantle supporter basically said; the get out clause was in the contract so Ross Lyon didn't do anything wrong... that there is no "spirit of the contract", it's in black and white and he was within his rights to use the get out clause. I admit that is a fairly compelling argument and I agree legally speaking that he was entitled to do that. But ethically I'm still not convinced, and I can't really articulate why (so I was hoping others could give their opinions).

Really, the biggest inroad I made with him was when I said "would you still think it is right and proper if RL were to enact that same get out clause (if he has it) at Fremantle right now?" when I was greeted by silence...

But overall, was there ethically anything wrong with what RL did? What is the purpose of signing a contract to the end of 2012 if there is no intention to honour the contract to that point? Is it a reasonable expectation from us, the supporters, or STKFC that the get out clause would only be used for non-football reasons? In which case should we feel rightly short-changed by his decision to leave with a year left to run?

I guess it's a tough question because in the same circumstances I bet a lot of us would be compelled by a few million extra dollars too, but is it considered poor form to enact a get out clause (by either party)?

[Moccha]

There was nothing wrong with enforcing the get out clause, it was the devious way in which he did it. Negotiating behind his manager and St Kilda's back without their knowledge while they thought that they were coming to an agreement between all parties was a low and dirty act which in the end resulted in a complete and utter waste of time. Why didn't Lyon have the guts to come out and front all parties saying that he'd had enough?
It really shows the true character of the guy - a selfish cold blooded individual. He'll always be chasing the impossible dream, never to be fulfilled.

[bigcarl]

Where do you want me to start?

[Dan Warna]

MM did pretty much the same to WCE.

If I was offered 100% wage increase I"d ask my current employee to release me.

I work with a guy who was offered a 25% wage increase in another area. He played it with a straight bat. Our glorious leader enforced him staying there.

We are now (collectively) working to have him leave us as he is far too talented to be doing what he is doing now. (I'm his supervisor and this kid has a PhD in materials physics and he's doing plod work).

That said, RL should have gone to the saints and said "I have this offer" and I'm sure st kilda would have grudgingly released him, as we did with matthew carr and Heath black.

There is no point in keeping a coach that has lost the fire in the belly to coach your club.

[saintspremiers]

Judas did us a favour by leaving, as it stands now.

A fresh new start and 10 delistings with hopefully Archer also added to the list soon.

The real question had Lyin stayed is if he'd cut as hard as Our Scotty did?

[supersaints]

Ross who ???? 

[InkerSaint]

The Fremantle supporter basically said; the get out clause was in the contract so Ross Lyon didn't do anything wrong... that there is no "spirit of the contract", it's in black and white and he was within his rights to use the get out clause. I admit that is a fairly compelling argument and I agree legally speaking that he was entitled to do that. But ethically I'm still not convinced, and I can't really articulate why (so I was hoping others could give their opinions).

Really, the biggest inroad I made with him was when I said "would you still think it is right and proper if RL were to enact that same get out clause (if he has it) at Fremantle right now?" when I was greeted by silence...

I also wonder how Ross and Fremantle would have liked it if St. Kilda had enforced the release period. "Yes, you can have your man... for Christmas."

It would end up in court, no doubt.

The "spirit of the contract" includes the faith that the "letter" of it will not be used by one party to gain advantage over the other.

One party acted against that spirit. The other chose not to.

[kosifantutti23]

There was nothing wrong with enforcing the get out clause, it was the devious way in which he did it. Negotiating behind his manager and St Kilda's back without their knowledge while they thought that they were coming to an agreement between all parties was a low and dirty act which in the end resulted in a complete and utter waste of time. Why didn't Lyon have the guts to come out and front all parties saying that he'd had enough?
It really shows the true character of the guy - a selfish cold blooded individual. He'll always be chasing the impossible dream, never to be fulfilled.

So Lyon should have announced he had the job at freo before Harvey had been told he'd been sacked.

[Wrote for Luck]

He wouldn't pass a reference check around fulfulling contract obligations.
My gripe was lack of transparency from Ross's part and not exhausting negotiations with his club first.
Any club he works for now knows what they get; a walk out merchant who doesn't believe in loyalty and will stab a fellow coach in the back.
Someone will do it to him one day.
He's got a bit of the c&nt in him.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm just glad, really glad, he's gone.

[winmaaah]

I think had Ross stayed, their would be a lot of baggage, and division, that would lead to a disappointing 2012. I think he left at the right time, though I was initially upset with it. I feel his credibility and reputation have suffered greatly.

[bobmurray]

I'm just glad, really glad, he's gone.

Especially with all the changes that are happening...

Watters must like Seaford

[Life Long Saint]

I have no problem with WHY he left...
I have an issue with HOW he left.

Going behind your agent's back is pretty ordinary.

To send a text message to your agent and your employers saying you're accepting the offer and to announce a presser for the next day only to say later that day that you're going to Fremantle is pretty ordinary.

Once you give the commitment then that should be it.

If you are still fielding offers then you should either tell your agent and employer that you are doing so. I find that employer/employee relationships that are built on trust work best. Clearly, Ross didn't trust the Saints management.

[matrix]

im actually fed up with still seeing his name in title threads on this site

gone
bring on the season

[bergholt]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

[SaintPav]

There was nothing wrong with enforcing the get out clause, it was the devious way in which he did it. Negotiating behind his manager and St Kilda's back without their knowledge while they thought that they were coming to an agreement between all parties was a low and dirty act which in the end resulted in a complete and utter waste of time. Why didn't Lyon have the guts to come out and front all parties saying that he'd had enough?
It really shows the true character of the guy - a selfish cold blooded individual. He'll always be chasing the impossible dream, never to be fulfilled.

and his mates in the media like Walls and Roos who helped him out.

He was entitled to leave and get what he can but all the lies and smoke and mirrors were a bit much. He turned his back on St Kilda and that's what really hurt.

I think he has ultimatley done St Kilda a favour becuase I rekon we have a beauty. It will really freshen the place up and it is exactly what the club needed.

[Mr Magic]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

BUT, if the Club does it, there is a 'penalty' - they have to negotiate a payout of the unfulfilled portion of the contract.

The one good thing out of all of this is that the Club won't have to pay him out for next season (unless he decides to follow the precedent set by his predecessor adn sue the CLub for something?)

[bergholt]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

BUT, if the Club does it, there is a 'penalty' - they have to negotiate a payout of the unfulfilled portion of the contract.

yup. because that's set out in the contract as a break fee, the same way lyon's exit clause was. in both cases the "spirit" of the contract was violated but the letter of the contract was preserved. there's no difference here.

[Mr Magic]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

BUT, if the Club does it, there is a 'penalty' - they have to negotiate a payout of the unfulfilled portion of the contract.

yup. because that's set out in the contract as a break fee, the same way lyon's exit clause was. in both cases the "spirit" of the contract was violated but the letter of the contract was preserved. there's no difference here.

I don't think anybody is actually saying Lyon did anything 'illegal' in 'getting out'. IMO that the Club chose not to do anything about it tells me that.

BUT I find the way Lyon went about things to be underhanded and distasteful

and for differing reasons,

Just like the way Tommy Walsh chose to 'defect' to Sydney.
and
the way Luke Ball chose to 'defect' to Collingwood.

All 3 made 'conscious decisions' to depart.
Maybe they feel they had valid resons to do so, but I dislike the manner in which they did it.

Just my opinion though.

[Scollop]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

There's always that big if...As far as I am concerned, I'm sick of hearing that it was only the bounce of the ball that cost us a flag or the toe -poke that cost us or the goal that snicked the post cost us... well...what if Ross hadn't played the boys to exhaustion?? We clearly lost momentum in round 20 and 21 in '09 and didn't recapture the scintilating form we had earlier in the year. Who gives a sh1t about about mclellan trophies ffs!!! fhead Lyon didn't plan well for the ultimate prize and didn't have the balls to go all or nothing. He did the same thing in the lead to the finals of 2010 where he didn't have the courage to go with some of the youth again and manage the game time or manage the niggly injuries of some of our regulars. I didn't post on here at that time, but so what!! This is how some of us (without one eye shut) were thinking.

It's still hard for most of us to see such a golden era slip away without any silverware when we know we had a bloody good squad. I reckon professionals look at things differently and they try to understand how their preparation may in some way have affected the results. If you look at the lead up to both Grand Finals, I think clearly that's where the answers lie and where the improvement needed to be made. He didn't have courage and faith in the youth to step in and learn and be a part it while rotating and managing the game time for our star players from say rnd 15 or 16 onwards. You win enough games to get top 4 and you make sure you're peaking in September. You also keep every one on their toes and keep the stars fresh by cutting them from the team even when they don't want to be cut...The competition for spots and the energy and enthusiasm from youth is infectious. Ross didn't see it that way. He didn't have the balls to try Steven in any of the finals in 2009 or any other youngsters in the lead up to 2010 or in the finals full stop!! The boys were exhausted because fhead coach and his messiah fitness guru pr1ck couldn't even see what every one else could see.

saintspremiers wrote:
Judas did us a favour by leaving, as it stands now. A fresh new start and 10 delistings with hopefully Archer also added to the list soon. The real question had Lyin stayed is if he'd cut as hard as Our Scotty did?

winmaaah wrote:
I think had Ross stayed, their would be a lot of baggage, and division, that would lead to a disappointing 2012. I think he left at the right time, though I was initially upset with it. I feel his credibility and reputation have suffered greatly.

[SaintPav]

you better believe the club would also violate the "spirit" of the contract by dumping him if results were too bad for too long. it wouldn't matter how long was left. clubs do it all the time, so i don't see why coaches shouldn't do it.

There's always that big if...As far as I am concerned, I'm sick of hearing that it was only the bounce of the ball that cost us a flag or the toe -poke that cost us or the goal that snicked the post cost us... well...what if Ross hadn't played the boys to exhaustion?? We clearly lost momentum in round 20 and 21 in '09 and didn't recapture the scintilating form we had earlier in the year. Who gives a sh1t about about mclellan trophies ffs!!! fhead Lyon didn't plan well for the ultimate prize and didn't have the balls to go all or nothing. He did the same thing in the lead to the finals of 2010 where he didn't have the courage to go with some of the youth again and manage the game time or manage the niggly injuries of some of our regulars. I didn't post on here at that time, but so what!! This is how some of us (without one eye shut) were thinking.

It's still hard for most of us to see such a golden era slip away without any silverware when we know we had a bloody good squad. I reckon professionals look at things differently and they try to understand how their preparation may in some way have affected the results. If you look at the lead up to both Grand Finals, I think clearly that's where the answers lie and where the improvement needed to be made. He didn't have courage and faith in the youth to step in and learn and be a part it while rotating and managing the game time for our star players from say rnd 15 or 16 onwards. You win enough games to get top 4 and you make sure you're peaking in September. You also keep every one on their toes and keep the stars fresh by cutting them from the team even when they don't want to be cut...The competition for spots and the energy and enthusiasm from youth is infectious. Ross didn't see it that way. He didn't have the balls to try Steven in any of the finals in 2009 or any other youngsters in the lead up to 2010 or in the finals full stop!! The boys were exhausted because fhead coach and his messiah fitness guru pr1ck couldn't even see what every one else could see.

saintspremiers wrote:
Judas did us a favour by leaving, as it stands now. A fresh new start and 10 delistings with hopefully Archer also added to the list soon. The real question had Lyin stayed is if he'd cut as hard as Our Scotty did?

winmaaah wrote:
I think had Ross stayed, their would be a lot of baggage, and division, that would lead to a disappointing 2012. I think he left at the right time, though I was initially upset with it. I feel his credibility and reputation have suffered greatly.

I really like your revisionism but you can't play young players if:

A) they are not good enough.

B) they are injured

[Moods]

Far as I'm concerned, not only did Lyon not do anything wrong, he made the right call. Let's face it, why was the get out clause in the contract in the first place? How many coaches actually leave their club willingly? Most are sacked and are dragged out kicking and screaming. The club outsmarted itself by putting in a clause whereby they could sack the coach at any time and not have to pay him out. they thought this could save them money. Lyon rightfully, saw this as a perception that the club didn't have complete faith in him. In the cool light of day, I don't blame the club for this (I did when it happened) but I certainly don't blame Lyon who would have felt that the club were looking to sack him as soon as things started going pear shaped.

I don't reckon the club EVER envisaged a scenario where Lyon would exercise his right to leave voluntarily. They were wrong. They waited until the end of the year, when he should have been signed up way before then. Lyon also would have seen this as a sign of the board not having full faith in him.

If RL had gone to the board and told them that freo were offering him 1.2 mill a year and the club were offering him 650k a year, we all would have said that he was holding the club over a barrel. Lyon did the smart thing. The fact that the club have come out and said he will always be welcome at the club in future indicates that they see it as just business, in which they came off 2nd best. Lyon was looking after his own future and that of his family after losing an incredible amount of $ in stock. Who wouldn't have done the same? I don't blame him in the slightest, and am looking fwd to seeing what the new coach can bring to the table. Rather than worrying about Lyon I reckon a clean slate is what the club needed in hindsight, and I can't wait for Watters to breathe fresh air into our list, and see what tinkering he's got planned with our ball movement.

[saintsRrising]

I have no problem with WHY he left...
I have an issue with HOW he left.

.

POINT ONE

Sums it up for me.

The Freo offer was too good to knock back. But like Thompson leaving the cats last year he chose to exit in a disgraceful manner.


POINT TWO

In hindsight though I actually believe that this will work well for the Saints now given where we are at and where we need to go....and the path we need to take to do it.

ie more offense, more speed, more youth and develop...with a mini-rebuild.

There is as a question mark with Lyon on whether he can evolve his gameplan, or whether he is a one-trick pony.

Unlike some I have no significant regrets about what he did in his time with us. He got us within a bee-dick of winning two flags. He did this in a manner which maximised the present and sacrificed the future...but it gave us a great crack at two flags. So I personally will not argue against it in hindsight. However in his last year year despite the best youth getting injured he should have still churned through our list more. The non playing of Walsh in at least some games stands out as decision that no one can fathom.


POINT THREE.

While it may be my perpetual "St Kilda rose-colored" glasses kicking in, the appointment of Watters (who I knew bugger all about till three weeks ago) truly does seem to be an inspired choice for the Saints....and where we are now at.

The more I read, hear and see of him.....the more I am impressed.

[Moods]

Gee whiz - I don't reckon Lyon's exit was anything like Thompsons. Very harsh ppl on here.

Did Lyon ever categorically deny he was going to Freo like Thompson did with the bombers?

Did Lyon resign stating that he was fatigued and THEN take up another coaching job?

Was Lyon in constant communication with Freo for 6 months meeting clandestinely with them?

Did Lyon have a whole staff ready to go like the Bombers did with Hird and Thompson coming on board?

Lyon basically rejected a contract offer after he perceived that the club didn't have full faith in him and took up another much better offer?


People often ask me as a saints man how I feel about Lyon. Once I explain it to them, most realise that Lyon has been portrayed incredibly poorly in the media. Most outsiders want to dislike him for what he did, b/c they either hate the ways saints played footy and blame Lyon for that, or they hate the saints full stop b/c of things that happened pre-season and this is just another excuse.

[remboy]

For me the worst thing about it was that Ross Lyon knew Mark Harvey was going to be sacked before Harvey did. That is just plain wrong. He should have told Freo that while they had a contracted coach there was nothing to discuss but if that situation changed he'd be prepared to talk.