Hi Saintsational......again. Its been a long time!

[SENsei]

Shoulda stopped at page 18!!

[White Winmar]

Just like flared Jeans and cigarettes, this thread has run it's race.

With the discussion now turning to the insertion of things in Grant's backside, I'd have to agree

You're a bit late Spacey. I and several others were accused of inserting our tongue's into GT's arse as early as the first couple of pages. Now I 'm accused of driving GT from the thread. Amazing. Funny, there seems to be a single, repeating factor that is involved in every thread hijacking.

[dragit]

All I want for Christmas is an axe.

[markp]

He's gone, move on.

[Dr Spaceman]

With the discussion now turning to the insertion of things in Grant's backside, I'd have to agree  :shock:

You're a bit late Spacey. I and several others were accused of inserting our tongue's into GT's arse as early as the first couple of pages.

"Everything's bottoms, isn't it?"

[White Winmar]

With the discussion now turning to the insertion of things in Grant's backside, I'd have to agree  :shock:

You're a bit late Spacey. I and several others were accused of inserting our tongue's into GT's arse as early as the first couple of pages.

"Everything's bottoms, isn't it?"

According to you Dr.S, apparently it is.

[beartalbot]

My point is if GT and Butterss had not let their egos and personal vendettas get in the way, you, me, your sons and every other saints supporter would now have another premiership or two to reminisce and get excited about. The Only reason we got excited about the GT years was that we were totally crap prior to that. In the end we got a ten game streak and no grand finals, an ugly public spat and a court case. Brilliant. As for you, Loris, I don't quite get your point, but I put some tough questions to GT in a very polite and mild manner and he chose not to answer them, probably because they challenged his revisionist agenda. He did answer the ones that suited his revisionist tendencies.

The reason why modern parenting and education asks or demands people challenge convention, is that we've moved on from the generation that was largely uneducated, bigoted, I'll-informed and sycophantic towards those in power. Thank goodness we've moved on from the fake civility and niceness of your generation. I hope you see the irony in your post in that you are being rude and sarcastic. Where are your manners?

Let me just say WW, one thing that we learnt in our generation was RESPECT, something that you seem to lack. I find you an arrogant, opinionated spiteful young ****, nah, I wont use those words. In the old days, loyal supporters where we attended games in the animal enclosure would have sorted you out in a matter of moments. The sarcastic reference to your problems with the niceness of our generation is a part of the problem your generation has with respecting your elders and authority. Something our generation found as a part of maturity.
Yeah, ramble on answering my post, but let me tell you mate, you have little respect from those many long time Saints supporters who genuinely love this club, as well as those who have served in any capacity. Remember mate, there have been many hundreds of people who have revered this club more than you will ever do. And as a footnote, please remove the respectable name of one of our greats from your signature until you have matured enough to earn the ability to carry this title. From one of your uneducated, bigoted ill informed and sycophantic aged members of this proud club. GROW UP MORON!

[Enrico_Misso]

it started positively and I was able to get answers from the horses mouth regarding events that occurred during this period. However I am disappointed as to how this thread has denigrated into an anti Thomo thread, thus completely diminishing any opportunity in getting any further answers from the only one who can give them.

Unfortunately beartalbot there are a handful of total f'wits on this site who take pride in destroying every worthwhile thread and turning it into personal denigration as a result of their overinflated egos and postcounts.

[BackFromUSA]

WhiteWinmar - just FYI your posts are full of revisionist history or pure speculation. I could pull them apart if I wanted to. Thomo did not start at $500,000. Even if he did that would have ranked him around the middle of what coaches were paid then. Not going to bother with the rest. Some truths. Mostly fiction or speculation or opinion.

I fully support beartalbot ... not specifically in reference just to WhiteWinmar ... I am utterly sick of the disrespect people have for others here ... and that it quickly degrades into childish name calling. I shall expand on what beartalbot was saying ... by saying respect your elder but more importantly respect everyone and act in a mature manner.

Saintsational should be (and was created as) a place where we can debate and theorise our prospects ... on and off the field ... as well as share gossip and news with those outside Melbourne ... not a forum to prove who can deliver the best insults or try to sprout opinion as facts without ever being in or close to the inner sanctum of the club.

[SaintPav]

My point is if GT and Butterss had not let their egos and personal vendettas get in the way, you, me, your sons and every other saints supporter would now have another premiership or two to reminisce and get excited about. The Only reason we got excited about the GT years was that we were totally crap prior to that. In the end we got a ten game streak and no grand finals, an ugly public spat and a court case. Brilliant. As for you, Loris, I don't quite get your point, but I put some tough questions to GT in a very polite and mild manner and he chose not to answer them, probably because they challenged his revisionist agenda. He did answer the ones that suited his revisionist tendencies.

The reason why modern parenting and education asks or demands people challenge convention, is that we've moved on from the generation that was largely uneducated, bigoted, I'll-informed and sycophantic towards those in power. Thank goodness we've moved on from the fake civility and niceness of your generation. I hope you see the irony in your post in that you are being rude and sarcastic. Where are your manners?

Let me just say WW, one thing that we learnt in our generation was RESPECT, something that you seem to lack. I find you an arrogant, opinionated spiteful young ****, nah, I wont use those words. In the old days, loyal supporters where we attended games in the animal enclosure would have sorted you out in a matter of moments. The sarcastic reference to your problems with the niceness of our generation is a part of the problem your generation has with respecting your elders and authority. Something our generation found as a part of maturity.
Yeah, ramble on answering my post, but let me tell you mate, you have little respect from those many long time Saints supporters who genuinely love this club, as well as those who have served in any capacity. Remember mate, there have been many hundreds of people who have revered this club more than you will ever do. And as a footnote, please remove the respectable name of one of our greats from your signature until you have matured enough to earn the ability to carry this title. From one of your uneducated, bigoted ill informed and sycophantic aged members of this proud club. GROW UP MORON!

beartalbot, in 140 years, blind loyalty has got us one flag. If you want to bury your head in the sand, that's your choice. Just don't expect everyone else with half a brain to follow suit.

As to your threats of old school violence, times have changed, so pull your head in.

[beartalbot]

it started positively and I was able to get answers from the horses mouth regarding events that occurred during this period. However I am disappointed as to how this thread has denigrated into an anti Thomo thread, thus completely diminishing any opportunity in getting any further answers from the only one who can give them.

Unfortunately beartalbot there are a handful of total f'wits on this site who take pride in destroying every worthwhile thread and turning it into personal denigration as a result of their overinflated egos and postcounts.

Thanks E M, precisely my point, tell me any other footy forum that an ex coach attends to answer questions involving a turning point in our Clubs history. I am so over minority egotists hijacking threads that the majority of supporters show an interest in.
Although a relatively new poster here, despite being a long term regular guest reader, I feel that we should be able to surely control the influence these negative hijackers have in the control of this site.
We must remember that all successful clubs in this comp dwell on the positive publicity they receive from not only the media, but their own supporter base on their club web sites. The negative activity reported on these sites only feeds stories for the media and anxiety of supporters.

[beartalbot]

My point is if GT and Butterss had not let their egos and personal vendettas get in the way, you, me, your sons and every other saints supporter would now have another premiership or two to reminisce and get excited about. The Only reason we got excited about the GT years was that we were totally crap prior to that. In the end we got a ten game streak and no grand finals, an ugly public spat and a court case. Brilliant. As for you, Loris, I don't quite get your point, but I put some tough questions to GT in a very polite and mild manner and he chose not to answer them, probably because they challenged his revisionist agenda. He did answer the ones that suited his revisionist tendencies.

The reason why modern parenting and education asks or demands people challenge convention, is that we've moved on from the generation that was largely uneducated, bigoted, I'll-informed and sycophantic towards those in power. Thank goodness we've moved on from the fake civility and niceness of your generation. I hope you see the irony in your post in that you are being rude and sarcastic. Where are your manners?

Let me just say WW, one thing that we learnt in our generation was RESPECT, something that you seem to lack. I find you an arrogant, opinionated spiteful young ****, nah, I wont use those words. In the old days, loyal supporters where we attended games in the animal enclosure would have sorted you out in a matter of moments. The sarcastic reference to your problems with the niceness of our generation is a part of the problem your generation has with respecting your elders and authority. Something our generation found as a part of maturity.
Yeah, ramble on answering my post, but let me tell you mate, you have little respect from those many long time Saints supporters who genuinely love this club, as well as those who have served in any capacity. Remember mate, there have been many hundreds of people who have revered this club more than you will ever do. And as a footnote, please remove the respectable name of one of our greats from your signature until you have matured enough to earn the ability to carry this title. From one of your uneducated, bigoted ill informed and sycophantic aged members of this proud club. GROW UP MORON!

beartalbot, in 140 years, blind loyalty has got us one flag. If you want to bury your head in the sand, that's your choice. Just don't expect everyone else with half a brain to follow suit.

As to your threats of old school violence, times have changed, so pull your head in.

Ah, another poster who puts words in peoples mouths, I never said you only had half a brain, you admitted that. Schoolyard theats?, I don't remember too many school yards resembling the animal enclosure at Moorabbin!.. another exaggerated comment from a disrepectful socalled Sainter. In my day we never ever found any reason to argue with fellow Sainters. I can tell you now that there are many of us who have remained silent who find the negative comments from younger members disappointing. This Club can only get stronger with a positive youth following to carry us forward. I find it just too negative at this point.

[SaintPav]

Ah, another poster who puts words in peoples mouths, I never said you only had half a brain, you admitted that. Schoolyard theats?, I don't remember too many school yards resembling the animal enclosure at Moorabbin!.. another exaggerated comment from a disrepectful socalled Sainter. In my day we never ever found any reason to argue with fellow Sainters. I can tell you now that there are many of us who have remained silent who find the negative comments from younger members disappointing. This Club can only get stronger with a positive youth following to carry us forward. I find it just too negative at this point.

I'm not disrespectful at all and you have missed the point. I respect those who want to ask the hard questions to people who have run the club.

Some of us just don't turn over and suck up to power. We love the club too much to do that.

[SaintPav]

beartalbot, old school means old fashioned or the old way of doing things. It does not mean a threat of any kind. I hope that is clear.

[beartalbot]

beartalbot, old school means old fashioned or the old way of doing things. It does not mean a threat of any kind. I hope that is clear.

I find it disrespectful to denigrate a former official of our club who had the fortitude to come on to this forum, offering to answer questions from an important period in this clubs history that the majority of supporters wanted answers to.
Believe me, I thought long and hard about making contributions to this thread, however, I get totally sick and tired of negative comments about this Club from posters who describe themselves as socalled supporters. As I stated earlier, other forums and media outlets feed of instability and critiscism on these forums, and I do not feel that this clubs efforts to turn around our culture over the past decade deserves the negative and spiteful comments on this thread.
If my forceful defence of this Club offends anyone, I am disappointed but i do not apologise, my love for the Saints will not allow me to disrespect those who have committed themselves to the betterment of the StKilda Football Club.

[st.byron]

beartalbot, old school means old fashioned or the old way of doing things. It does not mean a threat of any kind. I hope that is clear.

I find it disrespectful to denigrate a former official of our club who had the fortitude to come on to this forum, offering to answer questions from an important period in this clubs history that the majority of supporters wanted answers to.
Believe me, I thought long and hard about making contributions to this thread, however, I get totally sick and tired of negative comments about this Club from posters who describe themselves as socalled supporters. As I stated earlier, other forums and media outlets feed of instability and critiscism on these forums, and I do not feel that this clubs efforts to turn around our culture over the past decade deserves the negative and spiteful comments on this thread.
If my forceful defence of this Club offends anyone, I am disappointed but i do not apologise, my love for the Saints will not allow me to disrespect those who have committed themselves to the betterment of the StKilda Football Club.

I reckon it's fine to ask hard questions or offer a well expressed view of any period in the club's history or about any issue regarding the Saints, whatever that is. Whether for or against, if it's done with respect and some cohesion then fair enough. Forceful opinions are also welcome. Doesn't matter which thread it's in.
But the name calling, petty keyboard warrior battles, tit for tat insulting, downright nastiness and aggression is totally dispiriting and counterproductive to a juicy informative forum for people who love the Saints.

[beartalbot]

beartalbot, old school means old fashioned or the old way of doing things. It does not mean a threat of any kind. I hope that is clear.

I find it disrespectful to denigrate a former official of our club who had the fortitude to come on to this forum, offering to answer questions from an important period in this clubs history that the majority of supporters wanted answers to.
Believe me, I thought long and hard about making contributions to this thread, however, I get totally sick and tired of negative comments about this Club from posters who describe themselves as socalled supporters. As I stated earlier, other forums and media outlets feed of instability and critiscism on these forums, and I do not feel that this clubs efforts to turn around our culture over the past decade deserves the negative and spiteful comments on this thread.
If my forceful defence of this Club offends anyone, I am disappointed but i do not apologise, my love for the Saints will not allow me to disrespect those who have committed themselves to the betterment of the StKilda Football Club.

I reckon it's fine to ask hard questions or offer a well expressed view of any period in the club's history or about any issue regarding the Saints, whatever that is. Whether for or against, if it's done with respect and some cohesion then fair enough. Forceful opinions are also welcome. Doesn't matter which thread it's in.
But the name calling, petty keyboard warrior battles, tit for tat insulting, downright nastiness and aggression is totally dispiriting and counterproductive to a juicy informative forum for people who love the Saints.

Fair enough, but where were you when the name calling, petty keyboard warrior battles, tit for tat insulting, downright nastiness and aggression was shown earlier by Barks, WW etc.

[st.byron]

Fair enough, but where were you when the name calling, petty keyboard warrior battles, tit for tat insulting, downright nastiness and aggression was shown earlier by Barks, WW etc.

Here's my reply to Barks4Eva,

"barks4eva wrote: and there I was thinking I was being polite, sigh........
St.Byron wrote: Nope. You were being a Grade A rude twat."

Bottom of page 18.


His post was directly insulting to GT and filled with hyperbole that characterises his style of posting.

Here are some examples :
"Gomer Pyle, Mr Bean, Forrest Gump, Laurel and Hardy, Abbott and Costello, The Two Ronnies, The Three Stooges, Monty Python's Flying Circus or an inbred, semi retarded Macaque could have coached the best list in the competition in 2004-2005 to Preliminary Finals and perhaps beyond..."

"YOU and your best mate Rod at the time probably thought this would be a good way for you to pay back the million dollar loan he gave you for your newly acquired Brighton mansion"

"Seriously you'd only coached Warrnambool previously"

"and leaving aside your complete lack of tactical nous..."

Directly insulting, rude and belittling.


On the other hand I thought WW made a case pretty eloquently without being insulting and I said so. "Agree. Eloquently put WW." Page 19.
He wrote it not as a direct attack but as his take on what happened. A lot of which I agree with.

[St Ick]

Yawn... so GT is another poor old soul sucked up and spat out by Saintsationalists. When will it end? I'm thinking about the time that the US embraces gun reform... Who here is actually suprised?

[dragit]

Or maybe a chainsaw.

[Eastern]

Merry Christmas to all the protaganists in this thread !!

[lefty]

Which brings me to the last point. Instead of contending in 2006-7-8, (even though we made the finals twice and one preliminary) we were well off winning a premiership. Apart from the obvious misses in '04-'05, those three years were the one's we should've dominated. Instead our list was in poor physical shape and the core from the nineties started to deteriorate. I know RL was in charge for two of those years, but they were spent rebuilding and undoing the damage of the years before he took over.

Sorry thats utter bs at its best. It doesn't take 2 years to get over soft tissue injuries such as hamstrings. The 07 and 08 years had nothing to do with GT or our injuries. The body heals fairly quick for soft tissue injuries. I'll tell you the reason why the 07 and 08 seasons were utter crap.

Ross Lyon decided to come in and teach the players a lesson in gameplan, and if you didn't do what he said, you'd be out of the side. You do what the coach says and play your role. Don't you remember G-Train being in the center of the ground flooding back instead of being in the goal square one out? Do you think flooding down that far worked in G-Trains favour? What possible chance did he have of being able to outrun is defender over 100m, take a mark and finish off with a goal? Ross came in with a plan, and he made the players learn the hard way of defense, its all too easy for players to attack, but all too easy to get comfortable and lazy and not defend.

You're very wrong in your assumption of blaming GT for 07 and 08 years.

Sure when RL took over soon after GT departed, the list may have been in poor condition, but not for the entire year and there after.
The 07 and 08 years were purely RL stamping his authority in his quest to achieve his gameplan. Learning for the players, walk before you run.

[White Winmar]

[quote="beartalbot"][quote="White Winmar"]My point is if GT and Butterss had not let their egos and personal vendettas get in the way, you, me, your sons and every other saints supporter would now have another premiership or two to reminisce and get excited about. The Only reason we got excited about the GT years was that we were totally crap prior to that. In the end we got a ten game streak and no grand finals, an ugly public spat and a court case. Brilliant. As for you, Loris, I don't quite get your point, but I put some tough questions to GT in a very polite and mild manner and he chose not to answer them, probably because they challenged his revisionist agenda. He did answer the ones that suited his revisionist tendencies.

The reason why modern parenting and education asks or demands people challenge convention, is that we've moved on from the generation that was largely uneducated, bigoted, I'll-informed and sycophantic towards those in power. Thank goodness we've moved on from the fake civility and niceness of your generation. I hope you see the irony in your post in that you are being rude and sarcastic. Where are your manners?[/quote]


Let me just say WW, one thing that we learnt in our generation was RESPECT, something that you seem to lack. I find you an arrogant, opinionated spiteful young ****, nah, I wont use those words. In the old days, loyal supporters where we attended games in the animal enclosure would have sorted you out in a matter of moments. The sarcastic reference to your problems with the niceness of our generation is a part of the problem your generation has with respecting your elders and authority. Something our generation found as a part of maturity.
Yeah, ramble on answering my post, but let me tell you mate, you have little respect from those many long time Saints supporters who genuinely love this club, as well as those who have served in any capacity. Remember mate, there have been many hundreds of people who have revered this club more than you will ever do. And as a footnote, please remove the respectable name of one of our greats from your signature until you have matured enough to earn the ability to carry this title. From one of your uneducated, bigoted ill informed and sycophantic aged members of this proud club. GROW UP MORON![/quote]

Thanks for that stunning analysis, and for having the courage to accurately describe yourself in that second last sentence. Last sentence was good too. Inventive, creative, obviously the product of a mature and balanced mind. You've made my point for me. You damn yourself with your ill informed opinions, spitefulness and abuse, the very things you claim to despise. That makes you a hypocrite, so thanks again for pointing that out. Let me correct you on a few things. I am not young, or not relatively speaking. I am 50 years old and have learnt to respect people, not because of their age, or station in life, but because of their actions. Your histrionic and vile response shows you don 't deserve respect. I stood in the animal enclosure for many years, had plenty to say and never experienced any conflict with my fellow sainters. You may have been there and enjoyed the banter as I did. You don't strike me as the type to sort anyone out. Anonymity and a keyboard seem to be more your go. If you would like to avail yourself of the opportunity to sort me out, you can PM me and we could meet up.

As for having no support from what you call long time saints, I have received plenty of support for my posts over the years, and some have been kind enough to thank me via pm. I haven't received a single negative pm, but then maybe some can't be bothered. I have served the club as a consultant on and off for 14 years, so I dare say my contribution outweighs yours. I'm proud to have worked for the club and I even got paid! I've also been a long time member, so like many of you on here, i've chucked plenty of money at my love of the saints. As for my title, it was my nickname during my playing days. I can assure you it was not bestowed on me because of my similarities to the great man. I was a large and cumbersome ruck man/CHF and I was given it out of that great Aussie tradition of contrary nicknames. Your opinion on that is duly noted and rejected.

As for GT, when did I abuse him? I posed some questions that could be considered tough and causing discomfort, but one thing he has shown over time is that he can handle himself and he's been subjected to plenty that is worse. As I've repeated, he answered the easy one, but not the harder ones, as his his right. If asking hard questions about the way the club is run is considered rude and disrespectful, then I want to be guilty. The fact is, we've won 1 flag in 140 years and part of the reason is we've not been hard enough on ourselves. The most successful organisations are always seeking uncomfortable truths about the way they conduct themselves. It's the only way to improve. So if you want to accept and praise most of what is done, without positive results, then please indulge yourself. My ire towards the Butterss / GT regime, is that we had our best chance in four decades to break our premiership drought. Most in the industry still express their amazement that, given the talent on our list, we didn't win at least one. History will eventually rank this as one of the greatest stuff ups in the history of a club, that quite frankly, is renowned for them.

So beartalbot, I will leave you anchored in the 50's and 60's where life was so much better and everyone respected everyone else. Where we had a white Australia policy, where foreigners were described as wogs, chinks, dagos and curry munchers. Where priests could abuse anyone they wanted to, without fear of being held accountable, where the cops ran abortion clinics and decided who could sell drugs and prostitute themselves. Where Jews were banned from joining private golf clubs and so-called "gentle men's" clubs. Where women routinely earned about half what men did and had to leave their jobs when they married. Where people died in record numbers from workplace accidents because there was no need for workplace safety. Where the world constantly stood on the brink of nuclear annihilation. Where young girls who were unfortunate enough to have an unwanted pregnancy, were humiliated, sent to the country and had their children stolen from them. Where our indigenous people weren't 'allowed to vote and weren't recognised as citizens. Where a young man could go out for a good night's poofter bashing without fear of prosecution. Those were the days, eh Beartalbot!

What you mistake for respect was actually doing as you were told, without question, by those who were in positions of power and control. Maintaining the status quo, not respect, was what that was about. Those symptoms I described above show a society that has little respect, except perhaps for those in certain groups. Thank goodness things have changed and the "unreasonable" people in society keep us moving ahead. I notice you call me mate. I know you're being disrespectful when using that great Australian colloquialism in this context. Perhaps you might throw an apology to all those Aussies that know its true meaning and appropriate and, dare I say it, respectful use. I, for one, am grateful that I will never be the mate of someone like you.

[SaintPav]

Fair enough, but where were you when the name calling, petty keyboard warrior battles, tit for tat insulting, downright nastiness and aggression was shown earlier by Barks, WW etc.

And of course you haven't done any of that.

[White Winmar]

[quote="lefty"][quote="White Winmar"]Which brings me to the last point. Instead of contending in 2006-7-8, (even though we made the finals twice and one preliminary) we were well off winning a premiership. Apart from the obvious misses in '04-'05, those three years were the one's we should've dominated. Instead our list was in poor physical shape and the core from the nineties started to deteriorate. I know RL was in charge for two of those years, but they were spent rebuilding and undoing the damage of the years before he took over.[/quote]

Sorry thats utter bs at its best. It doesn't take 2 years to get over soft tissue injuries such as hamstrings. The 07 and 08 years had nothing to do with GT or our injuries. The body heals fairly quick for soft tissue injuries. I'll tell you the reason why the 07 and 08 seasons were utter crap.

Ross Lyon decided to come in and teach the players a lesson in gameplan, and if you didn't do what he said, you'd be out of the side. You do what the coach says and play your role. Don't you remember G-Train being in the center of the ground flooding back instead of being in the goal square one out? Do you think flooding down that far worked in G-Trains favour? What possible chance did he have of being able to outrun is defender over 100m, take a mark and finish off with a goal? Ross came in with a plan, and he made the players learn the hard way of defense, its all too easy for players to attack, but all too easy to get comfortable and lazy and not defend.

You're very wrong in your assumption of blaming GT for 07 and 08 years.

Sure when RL took over soon after GT departed, the list may have been in poor condition, but not for the entire year and there after.
The 07 and 08 years were purely RL stamping his authority in his quest to achieve his gameplan. Learning for the players, walk before you run.[/quote]

Lefty, I appreciate what you're saying about individuals suffering injuries that can't be blamed on what was done years earlier. The point I was making was that the list itself, in an overall sense was in poor shape and therefore more susceptible. Conditioning of any type, especially for a brutal sport like AFL, takes time, and builds over an extended period. I just made the point that there were far fewer injuries under the Lyon/Misson regime than there was under GT. it can't have all been luck. BTW, my point about the 06-08 years was that if things had been done differently, GT would 've been coaching the team to success, rather than having a group that had to relearn everything from scratch,including proper conditioning techniques.