Reality bites

[Harvey To Hayes]

I understand your point re Lovett, but I still believe that no one could have predicted what played out and that we would get absolutely no return (zero games) on our investment... Losing Ball for nothing still staggers me...

[suss]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

Comparing us to the 02/03 Pies side is a far reach, as they got the likes of Pendlebury, Thomas, Cloke & Reid post their grand final period.

Collingwood 02/03 = St Kilda 09/10 is a fair comparison.

Collingwood then went onto get Thomas, Pendlebury, Cloke and Reid while they were poor 04/05 (were they crap in 06? I can't remember.).

I reckon we might get a few of high picks in the next 2-3 years. Just need to make the right choices.

[whiskers3614]

I understand your point re Lovett, but I still believe that no one could have predicted what played out and that we would get absolutely no return (zero games) on our investment... Losing Ball for nothing still staggers me...

I remain of the opinion that Ball's biggest reason for leaving was how Lyon used him in second half of that GF.
Money keeps getting raised as an issue but I believe he agreed to a heavily front ended contract with Magpies to scare off any other side from picking him up.
Reckon he would have stayed with us for reasonable money if he thought the coach respected him and would use him appropriately.
As for Lovett, his behavioural issues were well known long before he came to us.

[Ghost Like]

We're the only club who has won 11 games or more every year for ten years, and in this climate of equalisation that is unsustainable. We're paying the price for a long run of "success" which equates to no decent draft picks, plus topping up our list when we were legitimately close to a flag - always a risk but a worthwhile one IMHO - and then some bad luck as well (trading our first decent pick in ages for Lovett who didn't play a game through an unforseeable scenario). There's been some ordinary recruitment in the mix as well, but for the most part this slide was inevitable. Everyone's bagging Watters but I can't think of any messiahs out there who were on the market at the time who may have done better with the list they would have inherited.

I flew down from Brisbane for this game (and to see my family) and I chose this round because I thought I'd get to hear the song, and it wasn't to be, but I'm not throwing in the towel. Yesterday sucked but then I think of Steven, Armo, Roberton, Wright, Ross, Stanley, Hickey, Big Mac etc etc and I know we'll be back up around the action before too long with just a modicum of planning and good management, and despite all the bleatings above I don't think we're doing too badly in this regard.

If 2013 is only ever remembered as a year when we ushered in a lot of young blood with upside and were the first club in VFL/AFL history to play a home game overseas then that is good enough for me. Maybe that's because I went to nearly every game through the '70s and '80s, you people who didn't live through that experience know nothing about bottoming out and sustained mediocrity, this current year is nothing in comparison...

Loved the club then with all my heart and love the club now with all my heart. Disappointed but unbowed.

Brilliant H2H! +1

[suss]

God there's some misery on here. Hitting the bottom for a couple of years doesn't mean forever in the wilderness. Look at Collingwood 02/03 - grand final appearances, crap for 2-3 years, then finals / competitive for the next 8+. Sydney, West Coast, Hawthorn - there are plenty of examples ...

Thinking back to 1966 doesn't acknowledge that the game changed when the salary cap and draft were introduced. If you have good systems, good management, good people and invest in of all those things, then you won't be down for long.

If you take the Melbourne approach and tank for draft picks without getting the other stuff right, then you're in deep doggy doo doo ... I am confident we have the other stuff right.

There you have it you hit the nail on the head but unfortunately you knocked it in sideways because you completely missed the point.
Collingwood, Sydney, West Coast and Hawthorn all have one thing we and the Doggies don't have, MONEY.
If you have money you can invest in good people, facilities etc....
Without it you haven't got that luxury.
Our club has enough funds to be able to survive but not to be able to invest and grow.
18 clubs, rich and powerful at the top, poor and irrelevant at the bottom, this is the AFL blueprint for the future.

You don't need exorbitant amounts of money to pick the right players and develop them. Sydney didn't pick Hannerbury with pick 26 because they have $20 million in the bank. They picked him because they invested in a recruitment team. We have invested in that area and it shows.

We have also invested in a development academy. That will pay dividends but people need to be patient.

Money helps, but there's a limit to that argument.

[matrix]

gotta feel the pain before you see the gain.......


plenty of pain is coming

[remboy]

gotta feel the pain before you see the gain.......


plenty of pain is coming

140 years isn't enough?

[whiskers3614]

gotta feel the pain before you see the gain.......


plenty of pain is coming

140 years isn't enough?

We chose the Saints, they didn't force us!
I was totally lost at half time in 09 GF not knowing what to do if we won.
Might sound negative but most of us are that used to hard luck stories and near misses that we would struggle to deal with sustained success!

[oh when the]

only 139 years of pain.

[White Winmar]

Let's face it, we just got beaten by not only the worst team in the competition, but the worst club in the history of the game. Surely this is sone kind of nadir for or club, even for one that has witnessed many crippling blows. Tonight was an unacceptable disgrace. We have a coach who is clearly not up to the task, nor are his assistants. We have a lame duck CEO who earns 750k. We have a head of recruiting who has failed at every other job in his so-called career.

I, for one, having consulted to the club over tine, now realise our club is f&$ked. We 're even behind that pathetic rabble from the western suburbs. An invisible, pathetically silent president (right!), an overpaid CEO, a coach who couldn't coax a fart out of a toilet, a so called recruiting manager who is a career failure and arse licker and a bunch of assistant coaches who are clearly no good. Lets face it,we will never win another premiership. I know plenty on here will tell me to piss off, and let me hurry out without letting the door hit me etc. etc., but as much as I hate to admit it, I now realise my relationship with the saints will never be consummated.

WW, you know I Love your work but don't you have a conflict of interest?

What hurts so much is that this is history repeating itself. I won't be involved again anytime soon, maybe never. I must admit mine was an emotive response , but the supporters of this club have been through enough and to hear people come up with the old "we've endured worst in the past", nonsense, makes my blood boil. We had the opportunity to follow Geelong's lead and become a permanent power and consistent performer. Instead, we're back to a familiar spot at the foot of the ladder. Bugger!!

[plugger66]

Let's face it, we just got beaten by not only the worst team in the competition, but the worst club in the history of the game. Surely this is sone kind of nadir for or club, even for one that has witnessed many crippling blows. Tonight was an unacceptable disgrace. We have a coach who is clearly not up to the task, nor are his assistants. We have a lame duck CEO who earns 750k. We have a head of recruiting who has failed at every other job in his so-called career.

I, for one, having consulted to the club over tine, now realise our club is f&$ked. We 're even behind that pathetic rabble from the western suburbs. An invisible, pathetically silent president (right!), an overpaid CEO, a coach who couldn't coax a fart out of a toilet, a so called recruiting manager who is a career failure and arse licker and a bunch of assistant coaches who are clearly no good. Lets face it,we will never win another premiership. I know plenty on here will tell me to piss off, and let me hurry out without letting the door hit me etc. etc., but as much as I hate to admit it, I now realise my relationship with the saints will never be consummated.

WW, you know I Love your work but don't you have a conflict of interest?

What hurts so much is that this is history repeating itself. I won't be involved again anytime soon, maybe never. I must admit mine was an emotive response , but the supporters of this club have been through enough and to hear people come up with the old "we've endured worst in the past", nonsense, makes my blood boil. We had the opportunity to follow Geelong's lead and become a permanent power and consistent performer. Instead, we're back to a familiar spot at the foot of the ladder. Bugger!!

I have no idea what issue you have with Elshaug but it would seem he is the least of our problems. he cant be blamed for crap recruiting from about 08 to 10 and that is what is hurting us now. I agree about Westaway, Dont know much about Nettlefold but sponsorship is struggling and arent sold on Watters. As someone else pointed out how do we even know he is good at developing kids. Just because they are played doesnt mean they are developing. And he had no choice but to play them anyway.

[milney044]

It's not about 'winning and losing'. We are clearly re-building, i can accept that and i can accept we are going to see a lot more losses than wins over the next few years. And as much as i hate losing, while we are re-building i can also learn to accept 'honourable losses'. But what i won't accept is an inspidid, gutless performance against disgraceful opposition. I was quite capable of accepting our losses to Collingwood, Sydney etc when the effort was clearly there, we were just beaten by a better team. But last night was the worst display of effort i have seen in a long time and it showed no promising signs for the future. I came away from the Pies and Swans losses excited by our endeavour and the kids showing signs and being shown the way by our leaders. Tonight was a different story and i was very disappointed (not blaming the kids either).

I have to agree with Teflon's overall point - i can accept losing when we give it our best, we're a young team. But we were woeful last night, our skill level was terrible (from experienced players) and our hardness at ball and the man was embarrassing. Our clearance work is deplorable and the ease in which the opposition shrugged our tackles and side stepped us was a joke!

i love this club, i am passionate and i except the boys to put in 100%, i didn't see that last night and i don't see why it should just be fobbed off as 'we are re-building' or 'we've been here before'. Yes, we have been like this before, but the St.Kilda Football Club i know is better than this. All i'm asking is for a little bit of fight. Because on tonight's performance, Melbourne would have beaten us. Melbourne are the laughing stock of the AFL. Sorry if i expect a little better from my club.

I hope the boys can come back next week with the same attitude i'd been so impressed with earlier in the year and show some fighting spirit against the Roos. I'm not asking for the 4 points, just commitment, effort and fight.

Go Saints!

[White Winmar]

Let's face it, we just got beaten by not only the worst team in the competition, but the worst club in the history of the game. Surely this is sone kind of nadir for or club, even for one that has witnessed many crippling blows. Tonight was an unacceptable disgrace. We have a coach who is clearly not up to the task, nor are his assistants. We have a lame duck CEO who earns 750k. We have a head of recruiting who has failed at every other job in his so-called career.

I, for one, having consulted to the club over tine, now realise our club is f&$ked. We 're even behind that pathetic rabble from the western suburbs. An invisible, pathetically silent president (right!), an overpaid CEO, a coach who couldn't coax a fart out of a toilet, a so called recruiting manager who is a career failure and arse licker and a bunch of assistant coaches who are clearly no good. Lets face it,we will never win another premiership. I know plenty on here will tell me to piss off, and let me hurry out without letting the door hit me etc. etc., but as much as I hate to admit it, I now realise my relationship with the saints will never be consummated.

stop supporting the club and fraak off... & when we return to form dont come back on here yelling how good it is.

this is not the first time we have been in the dumps and it wont be the last.. it's called a football team and we like all have our ups and downs. take your neagitive shiit and piss off. I am not worried we have been at the bottom before and bounced back.. just takes time. the dogs beat us the gold coast beat us, all it show's is where our team is really at.

supporters can understand this as painfull as it is deal with it and keep backing their club. I gave up expecting anything from this year after our first three and last week after the crows flogged us. it's time for us all to take it easy support . no biggie there's been lots of dark days as a Sainter... happy to say also a lot of great strong times since the 90s. I was born in 81 but my dad has told me how dark the 80s where for the St Kilda FC

Thanks for the predictable command to F*** off. Very constructive and insightful. The attitude expressed in your last paragraph is symptomatic of what has bedevilled this club for 140 years. The acceptance of mediocrity as inevitable has ensured we "build" on our record of one flag and twenty-six wooden spoons. At the risk of name dropping, I had a conversation about this with Tim Watson in a professional context in the dark days of 2000. There was an all-pervading attitude in the place that failure is cyclical and inevitable.

It doesn't have to be that way. As proof of this I point to Geelong, Swines and the Hawks. Clubs that don't accept failure is inevitable. We are satisfied with 7-8 relatively good years, but still no premierships. I've supported this club for 44 years. In that time I've seen them "win" eight wooden spoons, and miss the finals 30 times. And now we are headed for more hard times. Maybe we should just throw our hands in the air and accept that this is the natural order of things.

[The Craw]

Sometimes you have to lose some battles to win the war.

Time will tell.

I'm willing to give Watters the benifit of the doubt for the time being.

[fugazi]

How would you make us better? It's painful but will sacking and burning make us better. It is what it is. We are paying for a poor recruiting era. Kids and Grandpas at the moment. Melbourne's sacking of coaches has put them back 4 years.

Geezus...Ive said this before but here goes.

1. Dont simply accept the poor form of a Dal Santo (who is playing WAY below capability) find out why???? Play him forward?
2. We have an inexperienced coach he needs to be surrounded by the best. Turn over assistants, go all out for those currently at top clubs.
3. Look to introduce an experienced football head to support Watters
4. Review/changes head of recruiting (heard to many horror stories....questioning his ability)
5. New Prez who can actually be the FACE of the club cause we have none.
6. End of season starts now. Jones, Blake, Kosi (squeeze in his 200th), Ray, Milne, all play little or no games moving forward. All retire/move on seasons end. PLAY KIDS.
7. Probable trade bait - Dal/Gilbert/Gwilt/Fisher
8. Targets end year - Watts/Frawley (and any other mature player in that age bracket worthy)
9. No trading of top picks
10. Aim seriously for less than 5 wins - bottom 4. We need top 5 pick.

IMO Watters should not be judged on win/losses this year or next. He has to be judged on the development and performance of less than 50 game players. IF they produce performances that demonstrate they are taking steps forward to becoming good players he is rewarded.

not a bad list....we may as well go hard...mind you we still need some senior players in each line, otherwise we'll be Melbourne FC

[dragit]

I don't buy that Geelong have some amazing 'we will not accept failure' attitude, they went 50 years without a flag, with many GF losses. The main reason behind their current string of flags is a superior group of players, which I believe has been significantly influenced by the old father son rules...

[gringo]

Let's face it, we just got beaten by not only the worst team in the competition, but the worst club in the history of the game. Surely this is sone kind of nadir for or club, even for one that has witnessed many crippling blows. Tonight was an unacceptable disgrace. We have a coach who is clearly not up to the task, nor are his assistants. We have a lame duck CEO who earns 750k. We have a head of recruiting who has failed at every other job in his so-called career.

I, for one, having consulted to the club over tine, now realise our club is f&$ked. We 're even behind that pathetic rabble from the western suburbs. An invisible, pathetically silent president (right!), an overpaid CEO, a coach who couldn't coax a fart out of a toilet, a so called recruiting manager who is a career failure and arse licker and a bunch of assistant coaches who are clearly no good. Lets face it,we will never win another premiership. I know plenty on here will tell me to piss off, and let me hurry out without letting the door hit me etc. etc., but as much as I hate to admit it, I now realise my relationship with the saints will never be consummated.

WW, you know I Love your work but don't you have a conflict of interest?

What hurts so much is that this is history repeating itself. I won't be involved again anytime soon, maybe never. I must admit mine was an emotive response , but the supporters of this club have been through enough and to hear people come up with the old "we've endured worst in the past", nonsense, makes my blood boil. We had the opportunity to follow Geelong's lead and become a permanent power and consistent performer. Instead, we're back to a familiar spot at the foot of the ladder. Bugger!!

Geelong and Sydney are up but in a couple of years they will all lose the core that still props them. Goodes, O keefe, Bolton, malcheski, Roberts Thompson etc will all go out and leave a good side but not as strong as now. Geelong are great on the back of the fact that they had some incredible players playing roles. Johnson, Bartell, the Coreys, Stokes, mackie, Hunt chapman etc. all will be gone in a couple of years. those kids will have to be incredible to over come those losses. They are just a couple of years away from the inevitable slide too.

The Dogs have a really good list and will be better off for the loss of Harbrow and callum Ward who both are very good players but no stars yet gave them compo picks that while it impacted immediately it meant they will be better off for years.

[Teflon]

How would you make us better? It's painful but will sacking and burning make us better. It is what it is. We are paying for a poor recruiting era. Kids and Grandpas at the moment. Melbourne's sacking of coaches has put them back 4 years.

Geezus...Ive said this before but here goes.

1. Dont simply accept the poor form of a Dal Santo (who is playing WAY below capability) find out why???? Play him forward?
2. We have an inexperienced coach he needs to be surrounded by the best. Turn over assistants, go all out for those currently at top clubs.
3. Look to introduce an experienced football head to support Watters
4. Review/changes head of recruiting (heard to many horror stories....questioning his ability)
5. New Prez who can actually be the FACE of the club cause we have none.
6. End of season starts now. Jones, Blake, Kosi (squeeze in his 200th), Ray, Milne, all play little or no games moving forward. All retire/move on seasons end. PLAY KIDS.
7. Probable trade bait - Dal/Gilbert/Gwilt/Fisher
8. Targets end year - Watts/Frawley (and any other mature player in that age bracket worthy)
9. No trading of top picks
10. Aim seriously for less than 5 wins - bottom 4. We need top 5 pick.

IMO Watters should not be judged on win/losses this year or next. He has to be judged on the development and performance of less than 50 game players. IF they produce performances that demonstrate they are taking steps forward to becoming good players he is rewarded.

You have contradicted yourself.
Target Watts/Frawley but no trading of top picks.
How do you propose we get these players, ask nicely, pinch them while Melbourne are looking at a butterfly.
You also said we shouldn't accept mediocrity and poor form but we should deliberately lose games.

I dont think Watts or Frawley are worth first rounders which is what Im referring to when I talk top picks (cause we should get a top 5 pick hopefully this year) - second rounders plus players would be my offer....they do like Farren.....maybe there's your butterfly??

We wont have to deliberately lose games IMO - did you go yesterday?? - and we can still lose games but remain competitive. Effort is something that is non negotiable. We may lose to more talented sides, so be it. As Watters himself has said, win/loss column right now for us is perhaps not the most important thing.....I dont mind some honourable losses if I can see the future coming through...thats not accepting mediocrity thats planning and doing something about where you want to go....if less than 5 wins means we get an opportunity to recruit a future A Grade star...we ought to do that. The comp rewards that - so seek the reward to give yourself the best chance.

One thing I have done that you have failed to do is offer an opinion and some suggestions, as opposed to sliding my balls up and down the fence line commenting on others views.......have you got any thoughts of your own?

[Con Gorozidis]

The future is so dark I have started to wear a head torch.

Can someone tell me how Clint Jones and Kosi are still contracted players and Tom Lynch is in a Crows jumper.

That should never have happened.

Anyways - onward and upwards (via downwards) - I personally support the Teflon 10 point plan.

[dragit]

The future is so dark I have started to wear a head torch.

Can someone tell me how Clint Jones and Kosi are still contracted players and Tom Lynch is in a Crows jumper.

That should never have happened.

Something to do with Syphilis, greek style…

[Old Mate]

One thing I have done that you have failed to do is offer an opinion and some suggestions, as opposed to sliding my balls up and down the fence line commenting on others views.......have you got any thoughts of your own?

I quite like that. Sig worthy.

Something to do with Syphilis, greek style…

There's a theme here.