Reality Bites

[Bluthy]

Thanks Bluth - felt and feel the same way - even more for your apt summary

Hate it when this thing happens, when you have to pull the bloke up next to you (and his attractive 40 something daughter) cut up and cussing at the boys, completely unsympathetic when they did well (but then, dumbly f***ed it up and executed a breathtaking turnover...)
spitting chips, bleeding saints and expectations , talking about accountability and "money they're on"
Have heart, they're young, who knows yet - we're working our arses off in the backline, showing dash here and there - did you expect at a 2004 runaway?

came away not depressed and for what its worth, we lost by under 10 goals
Early days yet

The other thing for people to keep in mind is we are in an awkward transition phase between old and new. I think Fisher and Dempster should and will both retire at the end of the year. I'm beginning to think even Roo should retire. Paddy and Bruce were working hard to get themselves in the game and then Rooey goes forward and sucks up a lot of the space. Maybe that was because it was his 300th and thats fair enough - he's earned it.

Next year we should have a lot of our young talent out there playing together that will be the nucleus of our premiership team. This year is another learning year from the oldies to the newbies, and perhaps the last learning year. Once our long-term 24 starts to crystalise (starting next year), they will start to get in sync with each other and the sum becomes better than the parts. Thats what you saw with the dogs last night.

So its frustrating but understandable that we are not a slick unit yet. We are doing lots of chopping and changing, guys coming up to seniors and then going down again while they develop their game. People who think we should be this brilliant, slick kicking, well drilled unit when we are still painfully birthing our young talent (who are still learning basics like where to run, how hard to run, fwd vs defensive running) are in la la land.

[spert]

A very poor effort considering the importance of this game to the club and Roo. I really don't know what direction Richo is taking the team, but in his third season, I see no obvious game-plans, structures, systems etc. Clearly Fisher and Dempster are gone in my book- barely GOPs now. I can't believe Acres was dropped and Gresham gets a second game- he might be a good kid in a couple of seasons, but Acres is starting to show his potential now, and he gets dropped..sorry, no sense in it. Paddy looks VFL grade and is way off senior level. Just too many problems, ordinary recruiting, and I don't see a transition into a finals contender at all until we get class in the midfield firstly, then we can only hope. The biggest negative was that Roo was our best player, and he is at the end of his great career, and it wasn't one of his great games.

[SaintDippa]

Played against a top 4 side who are 2 years ahead of us. We should start the panic threads after next week if we can't beat a side on the slide.
Bevo has brought the Hawks mantra to the Dogs. Can't kick? Get out. Can't catch and run? Get out. There's 4 that played last night on the 'Get out' list.

[realdeal]

If Fisher and Dempster didn't play we would've lost by an extra 60 points. Dempster did a good job on Stringer and Fisher repelled many attacks, and when you think about how many times the ball went down there. Those two are the least of our problems.

We have many concerns but I guess we just need to remind ourselves that we knew we'd have nights like that this year. Its how we respond which is most important, as we can't accept games like that two weeks in a row.

[spert]

Played against a top 4 side who are 2 years ahead of us. We should start the panic threads after next week if we can't beat a side on the slide.
Bevo has brought the Hawks mantra to the Dogs. Can't kick? Get out. Can't catch and run? Get out. There's 4 that played last night on the 'Get out' list.

All the years I played footy, there were blokes who could coach and blokes who couldn't, and Bevo is clearly a bloke who can coach, and coach well. I agree about not playing the ones who have bad skills and who don't chase.

[The Recruit]

I have been sitting tight for the last couple of years acknowledging that we are going through a rebuild. I have come to grips with the fact that this will take time. Last year provided glimpses of the potential and I was encouraged by the effort and pressure displayed during games. It resulted in only six wins, but I was quietly optimistic at seasons end.
Last night however was unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, we were never going to win, the Bulldogs are a very polished outfit. But for the first time in about two years I went home completely disillusioned with where we are as a club. I prey that our decision to trade pick 5 for Carlisle works out. We could have had Parish. We still have large gaping holes in our list (no outside run), which will take years to fill. I am going to try to be a little more patient, but after 48 years of supporting the saints, I'm not sure how much patience is left in me. I prey.

Seriously the Parish for Carlise thing is ridiculous......we got Carlisle instead of these players because parish was pick 5 and we had pick 6 due to Sydney's pick 3 academy pick for Mills.........


Aaron Francis
Jacob Hopper
Callum Ah Chee
Sam Weiderman
Harry Mackay
Wayne Milera
Charlie Curnow
Matthew Kennedy
Eric Hipwood
Daniel Rioli
Harrison Himmelberg
Tom Doedee

NOT DARCY PARISH! We had 0% chance of getting him

[The Recruit]

A very poor effort considering the importance of this game to the club and Roo. I really don't know what direction Richo is taking the team, but in his third season, I see no obvious game-plans, structures, systems etc. Clearly Fisher and Dempster are gone in my book- barely GOPs now. I can't believe Acres was dropped and Gresham gets a second game- he might be a good kid in a couple of seasons, but Acres is starting to show his potential now, and he gets dropped..sorry, no sense in it. Paddy looks VFL grade and is way off senior level. Just too many problems, ordinary recruiting, and I don't see a transition into a finals contender at all until we get class in the midfield firstly, then we can only hope. The biggest negative was that Roo was our best player, and he is at the end of his great career, and it wasn't one of his great games.

Won't make finals till 2019
The club is realistic about this.
Recruiting has been very good and strategic.
Too many on hear have lost touch with reality

[Freebird]

Should we worry about having 3 slow midfielders whose teammates have a picnic going forward and other than armitage do not have any weapons to hurt the opposition...6 + 7 are both good tacklers but their opposition players kill us.

[spert]

A very poor effort considering the importance of this game to the club and Roo. I really don't know what direction Richo is taking the team, but in his third season, I see no obvious game-plans, structures, systems etc. Clearly Fisher and Dempster are gone in my book- barely GOPs now. I can't believe Acres was dropped and Gresham gets a second game- he might be a good kid in a couple of seasons, but Acres is starting to show his potential now, and he gets dropped..sorry, no sense in it. Paddy looks VFL grade and is way off senior level. Just too many problems, ordinary recruiting, and I don't see a transition into a finals contender at all until we get class in the midfield firstly, then we can only hope. The biggest negative was that Roo was our best player, and he is at the end of his great career, and it wasn't one of his great games.

Won't make finals till 2019
The club is realistic about this.
Recruiting has been very good and strategic.
Too many on hear have lost touch with reality

The reality is some Sainters live in hope and tolerate mediocrity- rebuilds are a myth, that's why we have one only one premiership

[chook23]

Great pressure from the Dogs also. We did not get many clear touches throughout the entire game.

Our skills are terrible.

Terrible.

the only thing missing last night was benny hill music when we had possession of the ball.

Agree bigred our skills last night were as bad as I have seen.....................

including early to mid eighties.

[SydneySainter]

I know it's only round 2 and anything can still happen, but we're now into our fourth year of the "rebuild" and of all the dealing the club has been doing with trades and earning first round picks, the only players that currently look like possible A-graders are Billings, Hickey, Bruce and maybe Lonie.

[Con Gorozidis]

....Meanwhile Freeman and Carlisle are sitting in the sheds.

[BigMart]

So because they are '2 years ahead' perhaps we shouldn't have played at all? If it's an excuse for the flogging we got?!

Fact is (reality) we were uncompetitive in all aspects, we are meant to be on the rise, the dogs are on the rise also... They played like s top 8 side heading top 4
We played like a wooden spooner (position we are currently in) after finishing 13th.

18 months ago people on here had us equal or better than the dogs. They took Bont and we took billings.... We were about the same ... Last year we beat each other
They lost captain, coach, ceo and never looked back

We are now not in there league... They are '2 years ahead'

With a younger team

[8856brother]

So because they are '2 years ahead' perhaps we shouldn't have played at all? If it's an excuse for the flogging we got?!

Fact is (reality) we were uncompetitive in all aspects, we are meant to be on the rise, the dogs are on the rise also... They played like s top 8 side heading top 4
We played like a wooden spooner (position we are currently in) after finishing 13th.

18 months ago people on here had us equal or better than the dogs. They took Bont and we took billings.... We were about the same ... Last year we beat each other
They lost captain, coach, ceo and never looked back

We are now not in there league... They are '2 years ahead'

With a younger team

They are miles ahead. It was there for all to see. And like Geelong before them they may create a dynasty on the back of 3 quality players they got for bugger all due to father son. 3 of their very best last night.

[The_President]

Bull s*** the club said we will wi a premiership by 2020 !

The club deserves an 'A' for PR, marketing, website and media.

But the 'spin' is nothing like the reality.

Good one Con!
You're an oracle.
Glad you decide to wear red black & white occasionally when it suits you.
A real honour to have you & your opinions on this board

[Johnny Member]

You could look at it two ways:

That our appalling structure and system led to a 10 goal belting that we were never even remotely close to looking like a threat.


Or, our structure and system was the only thing that prevented a 57 point beating from being a 120 point massacre against a very good team loaded with talent.



FWIW, I'm seeing a system and structures that are very focussed on creating turnovers and scoring on the rebound. That's good.

However, we seem totally caught off guard when we actually win the pill ourselves and go forward. It's almost as if we don't actually have a system for that scenario at all!


At the risk of offending some viewers again, I'm still very well short of being even close to impressed with Billings. Does not appear to like the physicality of the game whatsoever. Still.

McCartin will be very good. But he's not playing a natural game at the moment. He's clearly playing a role, and not showing any attempt to go or think outside of that. He leads, runs, contests, repeats. That's it. No physical contact with anyone or any attempt to win a mental battle with anyone. Just leads, runs, contests, repeats.

But that may not be a bad thing. It certainly is right now for his game and for the team - but it's quite probable he's been instructed to just keep doing his role over and over again at this stage of his career.



But man, as I've said before, were still a half a dozen gun players away from being anything special.

[Con Gorozidis]

Billings still only 20yo. Way too early to be calling him out on physicality. Still needs a couple more years in the system.

[the dome]

First of all The Dogs delivered on moving beautifully as a team - it all looked rehersed or players simply moving and consistently passing with accuracy into space when it was available. The Dogs made the open spaces of The Dome work for them & as a result turn the screw on us. Some have said they are 2 years ahead of St. Kilda and indeed they looked it on the night in terms of kicking accurately, creatively and safely.They looked well drilled in the belief that they would ultimately run away from their opponents who seemed to prefer the in-close pin-ball style of play (as evidenced more successfully the previous week in a gutsy performance against Port. The Beveridge game-plan looks well thought out.
I was also mucho disappointed in the performance but it looked very much like a rotating group of young pups not able to execute the best strategy in the heat of the moment.
Effort & endeavour are not as big a problem I think atm but learning the mental side of the game is still @ early days it seems.
Our players looked like they were still getting to know each other within the confines of the pressure game.
This could take time to deliver on more mature results but I wouldn't rule out those higher levels of application being just around the corner. Of coarse genuinely gifted players that could seriously improve the team somewhat quicker are in the wings - Hugh-G, B. Acers, D-mac & Paddy Mc (who needs games in a row to further familiarise themselves with the tempo/ pressure of the top level). But gifting games is problematic too.
These last 4 players have the potential to bring a serious improvement on Sat. Nite but they also need the time to mature.
I'm hoping Acers & Mccartin can keep themselves in contention and get themselves picked week in & week out.
Fingers crossed.

[spert]

You could look at it two ways:

That our appalling structure and system led to a 10 goal belting that we were never even remotely close to looking like a threat.


Or, our structure and system was the only thing that prevented a 57 point beating from being a 120 point massacre against a very good team loaded with talent.



FWIW, I'm seeing a system and structures that are very focussed on creating turnovers and scoring on the rebound. That's good.

However, we seem totally caught off guard when we actually win the pill ourselves and go forward. It's almost as if we don't actually have a system for that scenario at all!


At the risk of offending some viewers again, I'm still very well short of being even close to impressed with Billings. Does not appear to like the physicality of the game whatsoever. Still.

McCartin will be very good. But he's not playing a natural game at the moment. He's clearly playing a role, and not showing any attempt to go or think outside of that. He leads, runs, contests, repeats. That's it. No physical contact with anyone or any attempt to win a mental battle with anyone. Just leads, runs, contests, repeats.

But that may not be a bad thing. It certainly is right now for his game and for the team - but it's quite probable he's been instructed to just keep doing his role over and over again at this stage of his career.



But man, as I've said before, were still a half a dozen gun players away from being anything special.

Of course we shouldn't expect wonders from younger players, but my gripe with our game against the Dogs was the lack of competitiveness, not the individual abilities of some younger blokes to win a contest, it's more the game style/ structure that allows the opposition to have a option or one or two or even three players 20- 30 metres in the clear at any given time with not a Saint nearby, not just on rare occasions, but during the entire match. What makes this worse, is the terrible disposal of many of our players, so any turnover is punished big-time.
Our mids are too far away from the drop of the ball at contests, and just don't work hard enough to get in front at ball ups and basically, if you don't get first use, and use it properly, then it's all over red rover. We desperately need class in the midfield.
Re the younger players- Billings is a smooth skilled player and not so much a physical hard nut, Sinclair has skills, but his only possie is in the forward pocket for mine or HFF where he can use his smarts the best- not a mid or onballer or HBF. Paddy seems to know where he should be and what he should be doing, but doesn't seem to be able to do it physically, and I thought he should have done just a little better and gone a little harder, but I suspect he hasn't got that mongrel in him that KPPs should have, the jury is out for me, but I hope he takes a step up. Gresh could be good, but not this season- needs to be developed at the VFL.
Minch should come in for Gresham- a more developed player with goal-sense. Josh Bruce needs to do a bit better, and needs to start leading a lot more at the ball coming down field, rather than trying to out-muscle two or three players in a pack..we need a smarter system in the forward line.
Acres should come back in for either Ross or Dustan.
There's always next week, but it has been an unexpected disappointing start to the season- two losses by a total of around 15 goals..and big scores kicked against us- not good enough.

[Con Gorozidis]

Ok - I have had a few days to cool my head and think about it. My conclusion - things are going to get worse. We might only win 4 games this year.
This is due to two factors:

1) List
2) Game Plan

Game Plan
I'll start with game plan. The game plan relies heavily on pressure and a frantic attack on the ball. This requires 100% frenzied commitment from all players. The problem is this is only half of the battle. The next stage is once we win the ball in a turnover from our pressure - we then need to turn that possession into a goal. This is where we are stuffed. We win the ball well enough in the contest and we win turnovers through our pressure but if we dont have the leg speed and kicking skills to capitalise and turn these opportunities into goals then it is all for nought. When we win it we usually turn it back over with a panicked poor disposal - even when in the clear. Sooner or later this is going to become taxing on players mental and physical commitment. It is not sustainable.

List
Out list is incredibly uneven and not designed for modern footy. We have lots of short guys - e.g Lonie, Gresham, Dunstan, Steven, Sinclair who are unable to compete in the air at all. They are easily out marked and offer almost no contest in the air. Then we have some talls like Dempster, Bruce, Fisher, McCartin and Roo who offer almost no contest when the ball hits the ground. Of those I think Bruce is the best on the ground and at least contests ground balls. But we seriously lack medium well rounded players who can compete equally on the ground and in the air. Our only true all-rounder is Gilbert and he has completely lost the plot at AFL level and hasnt been AFL standard since 2013. He is gifted games based on his 2010 form but is now just a passenger. We seriously lack well rounded players who can run and kick and also compete in the air and on the ground.

Meanwhile the Dogs have built an entire list of these players. I'll give examples:

Adams - 193cm
Bont - 192cm
Stringer - 192cm
Macrae - 191cm
Crameri* - 190cm
Morris - 190cm
Dunkley - 189 cm
Suckling - 187cm
Long - 188cm
Murphy -187cm
Biggs - 187cm
Wood - 186cm
Webb -186cm
Wallis - 185cm

That is basically 14 Ruck Rovers - all who can hold their own in the air.

We basically have 1 - Gilbert - and he is cooked.

Yes I think Carlisle and possibly Freeman will make a difference. Yes I think Goddard, Acres and McKenzie are talents that will become good players. But I am not convinced this is going to be anywhere near enough.

Acres seems like the only bloke who fits the bill of being a genuine all rounder at this stage. Then maybe Brandon White has those attributes as well.

People might want to point to Armo and Ross but neither is any good in the air.

[Con Gorozidis]

Edit: The Hawks have 15 'ruck rovers' on their list who can compete in the air and on the ground -

Roughead, Birchall, Gunston, O'Brien, Langford, Litherland, Burton, Howe, Gibson, Stratton, Smith, Lewis, Burgoyne, Sicily, Hodge.

[Bluthy]

Ok - I have had a few days to cool my head and think about it. My conclusion - things are going to get worse. We might only win 4 games this year.
This is due to two factors:

1) List
2) Game Plan

Game Plan
I'll start with game plan. The game plan relies heavily on pressure and a frantic attack on the ball. This requires 100% frenzied commitment from all players. The problem is this is only half of the battle. The next stage is once we win the ball in a turnover from our pressure - we then need to turn that possession into a goal. This is where we are stuffed. We win the ball well enough in the contest and we win turnovers through our pressure but if we dont have the leg speed and kicking skills to capitalise and turn these opportunities into goals then it is all for nought. When we win it we usually turn it back over with a panicked poor disposal - even when in the clear. Sooner or later this is going to become taxing on players mental and physical commitment. It is not sustainable.

List
Out list is incredibly uneven and not designed for modern footy. We have lots of short guys - e.g Lonie, Gresham, Dunstan, Steven, Sinclair who are unable to compete in the air at all. They are easily out marked and offer almost no contest in the air. Then we have some talls like Dempster, Bruce, Fisher, McCartin and Roo who offer almost no contest when the ball hits the ground. Of those I think Bruce is the best on the ground and at least contests ground balls. But we seriously lack medium well rounded players who can compete equally on the ground and in the air. Our only true all-rounder is Gilbert and he has completely lost the plot at AFL level and hasnt been AFL standard since 2013. He is gifted games based on his 2010 form but is now just a passenger. We seriously lack well rounded players who can run and kick and also compete in the air and on the ground.

Meanwhile the Dogs have built an entire list of these players. I'll give examples:

Adams - 193cm
Bont - 192cm
Stringer - 192cm
Macrae - 191cm
Crameri* - 190cm
Morris - 190cm
Dunkley - 189 cm
Suckling - 187cm
Long - 188cm
Murphy -187cm
Biggs - 187cm
Wood - 186cm
Webb -186cm
Wallis - 185cm

That is basically 14 Ruck Rovers - all who can hold their own in the air.

We basically have 1 - Gilbert - and he is cooked.

Yes I think Carlisle and possibly Freeman will make a difference. Yes I think Goddard, Acres and McKenzie are talents that will become good players. But I am not convinced this is going to be anywhere near enough.

Acres seems like the only bloke who fits the bill of being a genuine all rounder at this stage. Then maybe Brandon White has those attributes as well.

People might want to point to Armo and Ross but neither is any good in the air.

ABout the gameplan, you need to have well-developed, skillful players to pull off the fast play-on tactics and hard two way running required. We are trying but didn't do it well last week. But if you don't try it, you don't get better at it. It worked well against Port. It's a WIP. I think we will have an explosive game plan when our more talented players mature where we can hit the scoreboard mulitple times quickly which the best team do to put the oppo on the back foot.

About the list, I've had some concerns about all our small players too. We do seem to have gone down this road of not ruling out a player just because he's small the way some other teams seem to have. Time will tell if genius or disaster. We used low picks on Steven and Lonie and Sinclair was a rookie. I was surprised when we selected Gresham with our first rounder when even before the talk was we need some bigger mids. But I guess they just thought he was too good to pass up. If we can keep the ball better, which should happen as our players with better disposal mature, then it is less of an issue. If we end up with Steven, Lonie, Gresham and Sinclair in our 22, then you might say that's ok - similar to Hawks - although they have absolute freaks in Mitchell and Rioli.

With the sizes above, you're comparing Doggies now, who could end up top 4, with where we are a bottom 6 team doing a lot of chopping and changing and culling the list. For us we can list Mckenzie, White, Rice, Armo, Ross, Dunstan, Acre,s Webster, Billings, Newnes, maybe even MEmbrey, who might really come into their own with more games under their belt.

You have to keep remembering that 50 game rule. We have so many of our young players who aren't at that yet. We are still riding the coat tails of our oldies. It makes such a difference when you can fill your team with talented, young players with a good AFL fitness who get used to playing with each other. Next year will see a mini-revolution and we'll see our new team out there together. Then we'll be able to judge better where our list is at.

[dragit]

Didn't you get the memo, we come good in 18 months… road to 2018

[samoht]

Too much of the same thing - too many smalls; too many one-paced midfielders with no turn of speed; too many ruckmen. When compared to the competition, relatively speaking, we lack pace and kicking skills overall. We don't have enough run and carry.

Our recruiters have no clue about overall team balance and the importance of it (getting the right mix of height, pace, skill) - and what our team really needs (and has needed for years) - they are continuing to recruit haphazardly.

I'm just about convinced that we have the worst recruiters in the AFL.

[Bluthy]

Didn't you get the memo, we come good in 18 months… road to 2018

I know you're being sarcastic Dragit but the club has a clear vision and thats refreshing. When we got Summers, Richo and Pelchen together, for the first time in yonks the club had a united, clear vision and has pursued it steadily. Before that it was a dogs breakfast with different people pulling in different directions hence all the friction that leaked out.

That's why I like the recruiting since Richo arrived. It's been highlighted by guys who can kick the footy and bringing in some x-factor. But you have to let this new group come through and get to that 50 game mark before writing everyone off. Am I sure White, Mckenzie, Rice, Freeman, Gresham, Acres will make it? No, but I have a good feeling about them. Hopefully our next couple of drafts go well where we will most probably have high picks and we'll have another 8 talented kids to work in and that could make a real difference.

Its amazing what a year or two can make in footy. We are the pudgy 15 y.o girl with braces and acne at the moment. But then everyone looks at the 17 y.o stunner and wonders where they came from. You have to go through that awkward transition phase and it ain't pretty.