Is Dempster becoming a liability?

[stkfc1]

Well, we lose a game by 10 goals and the next week we make one change - our youngest player goes out for another young player who has form in the reserves...
I think it really is time that Lee and Delaney come back in - Delaney could stand Cloke and we could play Lee on Jessie White. I wonder how many of the current side playing tomorrow played in the Grand Final sides of 2010 compared to Collingwood - the side that won the replay by over 9 goals?
One of the reasons our experienced players poll so well in B&Fs is because they are getting a game, while players like Lee and Delaney are not.
Dempster and Fisher are worthy of their place in the side at the moment, while Gilbo and Geary are clearly struggling skills wise.
And if Roo is injured I would like to see him getting a rest - maybe not this week as it's an important game marketing-wise for the club, but next week, if he is under a cloud.

Good point about the grand final teams SS. The regeneration of our backline has been poor - a fair chunk of that blame comes out of the Lyon and Watters era's but we do have some guys we could at least try and get some experience now - you need that to develop depth players if nothing else - what if Carlisle or Goddard go down in a prelim - you want someone to be able to step up with some AFL games under them. I think Richo is too tipped over into conservatism. If he wants his team to play with courage and dare then you need to pick the players who can actually attack - not a team of old-legged negators.

Spot on guys. Watching the game from behind the goals last week our backline is at a standstill. Delaney isn't the answer as he's a lock down defender as well although having him fill the fullback role may allow Fisher to be the third tall he's suitable for and allow him to be a bit more creative. He was one of the best in his prime but thoses days are behind him now. If Carlise was playing I don't see a spot for Gilbert. Reckon Gilbert will get the tap on the shoulder this year if this form continues. Lee to me is the still great unkown and is the one that should be playing. Give him 5 games. Telll him this is it. Make or break time. I've met Tom, he's a ripping bloke but not enough mongrel in him on the field. If he's not going to get a go this year then move him on. Just wasting his time and the clubs. He's got some good attributes. Now we need to see his desire to make it.

[The OtherThommo]

Well Dragit it's a questioning topic on Dempster so your carefully collated list isn't exactly a shock or evidence of a vendetta (you left out when I mention his strengths - and some statements aren't even necessarily about Sean - nice cherry picking). I will take back the Dawson comparison, that's ridiculous. But the rest I stand by. I feel like people are over-rating him as a gold-plated untouchable. He's been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team where his experience and leadership has been valuable. He's 32 another preseason and maybe the 90 rotations is impacting him. And we need to have one and half eyes on our future. We'll see. I'll be on Dempster watch this Sat ready to pursue my relentless anti-Dempster vendetta

For a bloke who 'has been a good defender in a bottom, rebuilding team', he's played in an awful lot of finals, including Grand Finals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Dempster

His season by season figures are towards the bottom. Take out '09, where he was coming back from the late '08 knee injury, and that is a damn fine, and consistent, playing record, in 2 sides have been up, on the rise, on the slide or down the arse end. Team performances have fluctuated, but his 'adn't.

The 'good defender in a bottom side' is reflected in his figures post '10, when the slide began. But, if you consider his best ball winning numbers are in that period, I'd also suggest it shows how he has adapted his game to having less quality around him (e.g. accepted greater responsibility for those around him) which, again, is reflected in the 4 B & F top 3 finishes, in that period.

I also have massive doubts the 90 rotations is affecting him more than just about any other player in the side. Apart from the fact he is universally lauded for his preparation and maintenance, he was hardly ever rotated when there was no ceiling on rotations - just can't see it, Bluthy - the blokes who are effected by the ceiling are those who were rotated the most when there was no, or higher, cap. A bloke like Jack Steven is far more effected by the lower cap on rotations. I guarantee you the coaches spend way more time worrying about others adapting to the cap, than they do about Dempster.

Does he do much attacking TOT? He was part of Lyon's uber-defensive system. And now with Geary he basically does shut-down roles and provides some backline cover. Teams don't care about one player being shut down in Modern Footy. Dogs loved having both Geary and Dempster in our team last week. You want to shut Stringer and Delhaus down - go for it. We've got plenty of others who can attack and kick goals and it means you won't rebound against us and we can pin you in.

With modern footy you can't keep both gloves up to your face to reign off blows. You have to throw punches back. And that has to come from ALL players. Geary and Dempster are too specialised being negators with no attacking side. It's becoming a liability as we saw last week. I will be watching very carefully this week to see how well we rebound on the big MCG as Pies youth will run, run, run.

Fair dinkum, Bluthy!

He does NOT play a purely defensive shut down role on one player....and provide a "little cover" - that's flat out rubbish. You cannot play such a role AND rank so highly in (e.g.) intercept marks and 1% ers. It is just not possible. To rank highly (in the whole competition, not just in our jumpers) in such facets, categorically states he gets involved.

Yes. sometimes, in some games, he will be asked to pay closer attention to a dangerous opponent (e.g. Stringer, last week). And, when he's asked to do that by those who run the side, he does it pretty damn well. Should he ignore what those who plan how we'll play against a specific opponent ask him to do? Despite a welter of repeat pressure last week, he did what he was asked to do, in that he limited Stringer, who is regarded as the Doggies most dangerous forward, with a substantial bag of tricks, skill and power, to a performance that had others in our jumper achieved on those they were proximate to at various times, would have resulted in us performing one helluva lot better.

And, I say again, as our quality has declined, his possession numbers have gone up. While his disposal is certainly not elite, he is far from our worst back at that end. How's Jimmy Webster's lauded disposal working? Or Savage's? Sammy Fisher punching the ball through the air these days, is he? How about Gilbo's? I won't bother with Geary's.

Before you recommence your Dempster watch, Bluthy, do me a favour and take the bloody blinkers off. The way the game is played these days disabuses me of the notion that a narrow focus on individual players as representatative of a larger systemic problem will lead to isolation of the problem, and ultimate understanding.

I also think that might be why reports have it that something of the riot act was read to people at Seaford early in the week, and it wasn't the players.

And, while I'm at it, I, too, would like to see Lee given a chance. Apart from anything else he may bring to help address some of the range of deficiencies, it might also get some to appreciate that Sean Dempster is currently being asked to do way more than is reasonable for a bloke who has earned a solid rep as a 3rd tall defender, who can also match and best other types of opponents, while providing number cover at dangerous situations when required.

Edited for a P.S. Just reading the 'Richo's ability?' thread, Con reminded me of someone I should have added to the disposal question list - Joey. How was his work with the ball down back last week? (Con used 'dinky' IIRC - I would have added a couple more adjectives, and did, when it unfolded in front of me)

[kosifantutti]

Some of the thread comments are clearly a joke or absolutely ignorant

Sean is the VERY least of our concerns... He's a gun defender

B&F finishes are the BEST indicator of performance
Voted by the coaches who understand players roles and judge whether they deliver upon them.
Kosi played 5 good games in 2005 and didn't deserve to finish top 10
Who kicks goals are not an indicator of performance, it's how they were manufactured. Did Minley create 60 goals? Was he the beneficiary of good set up play? Did he defend?
I mean really
Fraser Gehrig was RU best and fairest in 2001
In 2004 he kicked 100 goals and finished 5th

I know you are challenged by the quote button but I assume this is directed at me.

Speaking of absolutely ignorant.

You have refuted my comments about Kosi in 2009 by looking at 2005. Well done. Have you been to comprehension school with Con?

I don't know what your point is regarding Gehrig. You reckon his 2001 at full back was significantly better than his 100+ goals at full forward in 2004?

And I know you give a lot of credit to awards and best and fairests. How do you reconcile Milne being All Australian in 2012 but not making the top 10 in the B&F?

[BigMart]

Wasn't Dempster named our best player against the dogs

He held the in form forward of the Comp to 2 goals despite an avalanche of supply from an unopposed midfield

This thread is funny

[Con Gorozidis]

Wasn't Dempster named our best player against the dogs

He held the in form forward of the Comp to 2 goals despite an avalanche of supply from an unopposed midfield

This thread is funny

What is funny is the ridiculous double standards. If we had a 21yo take 8 marks, get 18 disposals and kick 2.2 we would all be popping the champagne. When a guy at another team does it we claim he was 'beaten'. That is what is funny about the forum. A defender these days is also expected to do more than just defend. The Dogs held it in their fwd 50 for large chunks of the game as our defence was unable to clear the ball. Naming our 'best' is just a piss take.

[The Fireman]

Dempster is the bomb.

[BigMart]

How'd Stringer go the week before? Really, if ever a key forward was going to kick a bag, it would have been against us last week.
Johannison and Murphy bounced the ball off HB with ridiculous ease

Milney, was a forward pocket... He was possibly the best performed fp in the league that year? But I'm guessing Ross rated more than just his goals, perhaps his ability to influence the game, outside of finishing.

Maybe Ross believes (and he knows a thing or two about footy) the midfielders, and KPPs are more significant?
Would you like me to tell you the stats for the other players that finished higher in the B&F and we'll see if we can determine a dud?!

[kosifantutti]

Maybe Ross believes (and he knows a thing or two about footy) the midfielders, and KPPs are more significant?
Would you like me to tell you the stats for the other players that finished higher in the B&F and we'll see if we can determine a dud?!

I'll wait here.

[The OtherThommo]

Wasn't Dempster named our best player against the dogs

He held the in form forward of the Comp to 2 goals despite an avalanche of supply from an unopposed midfield

This thread is funny

What is funny is the ridiculous double standards. If we had a 21yo take 8 marks, get 18 disposals and kick 2.2 we would all be popping the champagne. When a guy at another team does it we claim he was 'beaten'. That is what is funny about the forum. A defender these days is also expected to do more than just defend. The Dogs held it in their fwd 50 for large chunks of the game as our defence was unable to clear the ball. Naming our 'best' is just a piss take.

Uh, uh, Con - I said Dempster had "limited" Stringer, not beaten him, and placed the statement within the context of how the game played out.

And, from a quick scan, Marto suggested Dempster had 'held the in form forward to 2 goals' and, similarly, applied the context of how the game presented Stringer with opportunities.

Ergo, I suggest that is not evidence of a "ridiculous double standard".

As for naming the "best" - that's always an exercise in relativism, and rarely a "piss take".

[Bluthy]

And, while I'm at it, I, too, would like to see Lee given a chance. Apart from anything else he may bring to help address some of the range of deficiencies, it might also get some to appreciate that Sean Dempster is currently being asked to do way more than is reasonable for a bloke who has earned a solid rep as a 3rd tall defender, who can also match and best other types of opponents, while providing number cover at dangerous situations when required.

So who goes out TOT to get Lee in? That's an easy thing to say but you have to give up something to get something. My issue is systematic - I have an issue with both Geary and Dempster in the team - they are too much of the negative and limits our attack from the back which is fast becoming a premium focus in footy. Geary just signed a multi-year contract so I don't think he's going anywhere. I think Roberton can do the Dempster marking role on medium/tall forwards and provide more attack the other way. That frees up to either get Goddard or Delaney in to play on the huge forwards and free up Fisher. Alternatively you put Lee in and try and use his good kicking from the back. These are options that must be considered and not just written off because poeple consider Dempster an untouchable. Lets see how we go today. A win and it makes me look a bit stupid. But a bad loss and we might need to look to the future more.

[Con Gorozidis]

Unless you are assigned the top key fwd - eg Cameron, Hawkins, Franklin, Kennedy, Waite, Walker, Lynch (GC) then you need to do more than simply negate. Easton Wood and Gibson are just as good as Dempster in the air but rack up 20-30 disposals every single week as they counter attack and run hard and fast out of the back line.

[dragit]

Unless you are assigned the top key fwd - eg Cameron, Hawkins, Franklin, Kennedy, Waite, Walker, Lynch (GC) then you need to do more than simply negate. Easton Wood and Gibson are just as good as Dempster in the air but rack up 20-30 disposals every single week as they counter attack and run hard and fast out of the back line.

Both great players coming off All Australian years, but that is just not true…

Wood averaged 17.8 last year compared to Dempsters lowly 17.7 for starters & Wood didn't even get 20 last week.

Gibson had 10 games last year with 20 or less disposals. 44 last week was obscene.

Yes Dempsters disposals are down so far this year, but it's round 3.

[Con Gorozidis]

Clearly stung by the OP . 50 marks.

[Bunk_Moreland]

No

[matrix]

Lol

Everyone stepped up that copped a baggin last week
Deserving or not

Pure team effort

[Saint_J]

no he's not. Fisher either. till Goddard and Jake are in and firing Dempster still a required player at this point.

[spert]

Like I always say- the experienced players need to lead by example otherwise they are taking up space. Dempster pulled something from deep down especially in that last quarter, and let's hope this continues as it inspires the younger players. Something that was missing last week.

[St Lenny]

These guys were awesome today, what a load of crap this is.

[Goose is king]

[quote="Goose is king"]No[/quote]


I said it best

[freely]

the jury is in

[dragit]

Only had 16 possessions @ 94% in 100% game time, he won't sleep this week worrying like heck about selection.

Absolute liability.

[BigMart]

I didn't even have to hope he played well to make people look silly
80% of the time he does his job or better... Occasionall getting beaten because week in week out the plays on a very good opponent.

Dempster is of little concern, neither is Joey, neither is Fisher or Riewoldt

If they play they can be relied upon to produce

[remboy]

According to the stats in the Age Dempster and Fisher spent 100% of the game on the ground. In an era of high rotations that's a fantastic effort, especially for two of our older players. Gives an indication of their fitness levels.

[Saint_J]

Dempster bar one kick... was incredible yesterday. he is a general back there. I've never worried about him.

[Bluthy]

Demps was great yesterday - made me look a little silly a couple of his trademark key marks in the second half were brilliant. But its an on-going debate that's not decided by one game when everyone played great. Lets see how we go getting it out against hawks suffocating zone. Robbo's injury opens up a spot for Goddard or Lee anyway.