Ross Lyon recruiting finally getting smelly?

[bigred]

The tank is in with Freo. For sure.

Don't care about 2009 & 2010. We went damn close, but no one rates grand final losing coaches.

He walked out on the impeding rebuild and now faces an unavoidable one.

This will go two ways. One is that he will build up a successful team again, or he will drift into mediocrity over the next three years.

I couldn't really give a rats arse either way.

[samoht]

I can't believe the bottom has just fallen out - given where Freo was last season.
I'd accept that the injuries could have brought them back down to the level of a Melbourne or Carlton (or where we are, say) ... but all these teams, even Essendon, have wins on the board.

[Bunk_Moreland]

I can't believe the bottom has just fallen out - given where Freo was last season.
I'd accept that the injuries could have brought them back down to the level of a Melbourne or Carlton (or where we are, say) ... but all these teams, even Essendon, have wins on the board.

They got old very quick and the new OOB and limited interchange has put paid to their stoppage type gameplan.

Reckon Lyon will be the Tigers coach if Hardwick falls over.

[loris]

I can't believe the bottom has just fallen out - given where Freo was last season.
I'd accept that the injuries could have brought them back down to the level of a Melbourne or Carlton (or where we are, say) ... but all these teams, even Essendon, have wins on the board.

They got old very quick and the new OOB and limited interchange has put paid to their stoppage type gameplan.

Reckon Lyon will be the Tigers coach if Hardwick falls over.

A couple of weeks ago, before Collingwood had got back to winning again, the talk here in Perth was that Lyon was being spoken to by Collingwood and would replace Buckley!

[mad saint guy]

While it is easy to pander to hysteria and just make a list of such recycled players, what did they actually cost (most were late picks and a number were "free" as were picks after the other clubs had stopped making selections and others were rookie picks)?

Importantly if you are going to critique the pick ups you have to also make them in the context of:
* our then drafting team having had a proven track record of being totally inept, and arguablly being the AFL's worst for many years. Remember howlers like pick 27 for Howard? A record that has only in the last few years been at long last turned around for the better.
* that the brief to Lyon was to take the next step with the lst at to get them into GF's quickly. Under that brief you were not going to do it by only drafting kids (and moreso as we were very poor at drafting kids!)
* what could you have done instead?

How do you define success? It must be very harsh.

No one is saying that you can't recycle any players, but it was Lyon's complete and utter lack of interest in drafting and developing young talent that led to our club completely bottoming out in recent years. If he was willing to continue to develop and bring youth into the team while we were challenging (as every premiership side in recent memory has) then we'd be in a much better position, and may well have found better players than Peake, Clarke, McQualter etc to round off our grand final teams. He was much more interested in bringing in senior bodies that could run where he wanted rather than finding quality footballers. Even if the majority of the recycled players came cheaply, they all cost a spot on the list. Sam Fisher was pick 55, James Gwilt pick 63, Jack Steven pick 42, Jack Newnes pick 37, Rhys Stanley pick 47, Jimmy Webster pick 42, Jack Lonie pick 41, Jack Sinclair a rookie. All of these players came cheaply, just like Lyon's extensive list of recycled failures. I'm not saying we would have struck gold every time we took a speculative pick on a kid, but I'd rather use 10 late draft picks on kids and find 3 gun players rather than take 10 recycled players and have most of them scrape together 30-50 games.

Hell, if he'd simply paid attention to the kids we did have at the club maybe we'd have a flag by now. If he'd fast-tracked Steven and Armo instead of persisting with the likes of Peake and Birss they might have been serious contributors in the best 22 by the time we made GFs. Note that the only two decent players we selected with first round picks under Lyon left the club and are now playing good footy elsewhere. I guess even if we did recruit young talent he was such a poor development coach they would leave anyway. His treatment of Tom Lynch was appalling.

[saintsRrising]

I think if you go back and look at who our recruiters actually picked, not just in the Lyon period but the last half of GT's reign, that the young talent that was drafted was anything but talented in the main.

Look through Lyon had available to him. What young talent was not played that was any good?

Otherwise can you provide a list of the young talent that was ignored?

About the only young player that Lyon did not play who has gone on with is Tom Lynch, and even he at the Crows only played 6 games in his first year with them. So IMO he was just a one of those players that takes a while.

Lyon did not ignore young talent. We basically did not have much talent. Any of the drafted players with talent actually were played. This included rookies who showed a bit like Clinton Jones, Zac, Attard, Geary, Simpkin and Eddy.

Armo not played enough? Even he has publically admtted that hewas not training hard enough in his early years and that when he became more committed so did his form improve.


DRAFT PICKS

2003 Raph Clarke 55 Sam Fisher

2004 17 McQualter Cain Ackland Mark McGough 62 James Gwilt Craig Callahan

2005 (ie before Lyon) 33 Sam Gilbert, Michael Rix, Phillip Raymond, Justin Sweeney

2006 (first draft that Lyon did not strongly influence as he only just arrived after the finals ) Armo, Brad Howard, Jarryd Allen (looked ok but had that freak injury in the finals against Hawks), Pick 74 Matthew Ferguson

2007 McEvoy Jack Steven Eljay Connors 57 Gehrig

2008 Lynch Stanley Heyne, Alister Smith, 83 Colm Begley

2009 Winmar 64 Jesse Smith 77 Will Johnson

2010 Cripps Sam Crocker tom Ledger Sipposs 90 Gamble 103 Polo
Cripps had talent and Lyon was playing him, but he walked out on us.

So who are all these good young players that Lyon did not play? Answer is that if they were any good they were played. ie Gilbert, Fisher,

Yes we are all bitter and twisted on not winning two GF's and in the Saints going backwards afterwards (and that was deepened by the Pelchen supertank to lose BJ and Dal to gain more young players).

But it is a myth that this was due to Lyon not playing young players. It was much more due to having really s*** recruiters for so long.

The recycled players you rail on about were taken before Lyon joined, during the Lyon period and after the Lyon period.

In the Lyon period the recycled players were in the main great value when you look at what Pick Number was actually used and they delivered on the field. Yes Polo did not make it, but at pick 103 did it cost us a a great young kid? = no.

Without these rcycled players we would not have had the success we had under Lyon. These recycled players did not rob us of our continued succes. Piss poor drafting of kids did.

[Con Gorozidis]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.
A good coach would have got us two flags.

[saintsRrising]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.

Absolute rubbish Con.

A good coach would have got us two flags.

GT had a better list than Lyon, and you overstate how good the nine were in the period under Lyon as some were past their best.

[Con Gorozidis]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.

Absolute rubbish Con.

A good coach would have got us two flags.

GT had a better list than Lyon, and you overstate how good the nine were in the period under Lyon as some were past their best.

How is it 'absolute rubbish'? It is a definitive fact

Roo, Montagna, Milne, Dempster, Fisher, King, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hayes were all AA players.

HOW IS IT "RUBBISH"????

9 All Australian.

People on here seem to not understand the difference between a 'fact' and an opinion. How can you call a verifiable/falsifiable FACT 'rubbish'?

No wonder I get frustrated. Seriously.

[The Fireman]

a win this week will be a sweet one for all saint fans no matter what.

[samoht]

GT arguably had a better list --- but no luck.
GT got close with a team that were considered (overall ) "too young" at the time. Also, Hamill was injured and did not take part in the final against Port - a game in which Kosi was played injured - and in which our 2nd rate hack ruckman tapped it straight to Wanganeen who slotted home the winner - and Port went on to smash the Brisbane Lions in the GF.
With a bit of luck it could have been us giving it to the Lions and GT would have been considered a coaching genius.
You need luck.

[Scollop]

A quote from Con Gorra; "0-9 is horrific. When was the last time anyone was 0-9?" And one from loris that I reckon flows on from Con and is worth repeating; "I wonder if you'll find the new team you'll have to DEVELOP at Freo now will be so 'coachable', methinks it might be more frustrating experience for Ro$$."

If not for Goo's failed toe poke and if not for Bazzas punch to Gooses guts we might've won both prelims in '04 and '05 and maybe snagged one or both flags...Maybe Ro$$y may have never have set foot in our club.

The legend of Lyon had already been created by his mates in the media before he arrived at Freo and with his current contract Ro$$y is laughing all the way. I wonder how the Ross devotees and the flock who gobble up the media hype about 'career coach' will be explaining Rossy's failures in the years to come

[samoht]

RL will be looking at 0-10 after this weekend ... I remember when GT had his young charges at 10-0 before the soft tissues kicked in. Their young, immature bodies finally gave up .. and the rest is His Story ... you know whose! The legend in waiting.

[saintsRrising]

How is it 'absolute rubbish'? It is a definitive fact

Roo, Montagna, Milne, Dempster, Fisher, King, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hayes were all AA players.

HOW IS IT "RUBBISH"????

9 All Australian.

People on here seem to not understand the difference between a 'fact' and an opinion. How can you call a verifiable/falsifiable FACT 'rubbish'?

No wonder I get frustrated. Seriously.

Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list. Con what facts? Brownless has never coached. He is a great business man, but knows nothing about coaching. So what on earth is factual about that?

This idea that we had world beating list that anyone could have won a flag with is just utter rubbish. So as I said. Absolute rubbish.

[saintsRrising]

Oh and Con if you mean 9 AA's . What does this mean and why is it some guarantee for StKilda success?

Even if you look at AA alone the top two teams for the 2009 season, Geelong Cats and St Kilda each had five players selected as AA's.

Of the 2010 All-Australian team, six of the 22 players were Geelong players, with four players coming from minor premiers Collingwood, while St Kilda, Melbourne, the Western Bulldogs and Hawthorn had two players each.

Your argument does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Moods]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.
A good coach would have got us two flags.

Haha. that's one of the stupidest things I've read on here for ages.

[BigMart]

What that he's stated with evidence that we had great treat because we had a lot of AA talent in their prime 09/10

I think it's pretty obvious

The young players not exposed enough were
Dave Armitage... His dropping in 09 was mind boggling
Jack Steven not enough games in both year bug particularly 10
Rhys Stanley 10/11 should have played more
Tom Lynch 2011

[skeptic]

Ppl have used that argument to bash GT for a long time... not many on here defending him

[Scollop]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.
A good coach would have got us two flags.

Haha. that's one of the stupidest things I've read on here for ages.

No. Your comment on Ross is the stupidest because firstly you can't nearly be a legend IF , and secondly unlike players, I don't believe people usually refer to a coach being a product of a football club.

if not for some bad goal kicking or an unlucky bounce would be enshrined as the biggest legend this club had ever produced.

We didn't produce Rossy. He wasn't an assistant at our club before he got the top job. He picked up a fair bit from some very good coaches but I reckon he was mainly a product of Paul Roos

[Sainternist]

a win this week will be a sweet one for all saint fans no matter what.

Would be fantastic. Give Ro$$y hell!

[Moods]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.
A good coach would have got us two flags.

Haha. that's one of the stupidest things I've read on here for ages.

No. Your comment on Ross is the stupidest because firstly you can't nearly be a legend IF , and secondly unlike players, I don't believe people usually refer to a coach being a product of a football club.

if not for some bad goal kicking or an unlucky bounce would be enshrined as the biggest legend this club had ever produced.

We didn't produce Rossy. He wasn't an assistant at our club before he got the top job. He picked up a fair bit from some very good coaches but I reckon he was mainly a product of Paul Roos

9 AA'S - all at their peak!!! Yeah right. What world are you guys living in? Gardiner and King at their peak??? Luke Ball? If those blokes were all at their peak, then Billy Brownless COULD have coached us to a flag. AA ruck duo with AA mid field.

[Playon]

A reminder

Former St Kilda coach Ross Lyon's 'bizarre' final hurrah

Nettlefold said he sensed there was a problem because Lyon's "behaviour had been quite unusual" over the final months of the 2011 season, culminating in a "bizarre night" when the Saints lost an elimination final to Sydney.

Within 30 minutes of the final siren at Etihad Stadium, Lyon had announced the unexpected retirements of Steven Baker and Robert Eddy as well as ruckman Michael Gardiner.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/f ... 6632573755

[BigMart]

Steven King

Was he an AA

[saintsRrising]

Steven King

Was he an AA

Why is it relevant as he was not AA when with us and whatever he did at the Cats is completely irrelevant to what he did with us.

He was a good solid performer for us and a great pick up for nothing. Smart aquisition.


PS: Yes was AA way back in 2000

[Darth Vader]

We had 9 AA players - all at their peak when Lyon had us. Billy Brownless could have coached us to a GF with 9 AA on our list.

Absolute rubbish Con.

A good coach would have got us two flags.

GT had a better list than Lyon, and you overstate how good the nine were in the period under Lyon as some were past their best.

How is it 'absolute rubbish'? It is a definitive fact

Roo, Montagna, Milne, Dempster, Fisher, King, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hayes were all AA players.

HOW IS IT "RUBBISH"????

9 All Australian.

People on here seem to not understand the difference between a 'fact' and an opinion. How can you call a verifiable/falsifiable FACT 'rubbish'?

No wonder I get frustrated. Seriously.

Wasn't Ball AA? Makes it 10.