I think we need to talk about David Armitage!

[Sainternist]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

[citywest]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Actually, you are clueless Sainternist. This is a forum which means everyone is allowed to have an opinion. I honestly believe that if pick 12 was on offer from Richmond we should have taken it. We would now have a 20 year old gun with 30 games under his belt and his best footy ahead of him. Instead, we have Armo who is 29 with his best footy behind him. If you don't agree then that's fine but don't you dare come on here and say I'm clueless.

[Trev from the Bush]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Actually, you are clueless Sainternist. This is a forum which means everyone is allowed to have an opinion. I honestly believe that if pick 12 was on offer from Richmond we should have taken it. We would now have a 20 year old gun with 30 games under his belt and his best footy ahead of him. Instead, we have Armo who is 29 with his best footy behind him. If you don't agree then that's fine but don't you dare come on here and say I'm clueless.

Well, Citywest, I must be clueless.

Who is the 20 year old gun who would now have played 30 games? You haven't mentioned his name.

Or are you just making this up? The latter is just my opinion.

[Sainternist]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Actually, you are clueless Sainternist. This is a forum which means everyone is allowed to have an opinion. I honestly believe that if pick 12 was on offer from Richmond we should have taken it. We would now have a 20 year old gun with 30 games under his belt and his best footy ahead of him. Instead, we have Armo who is 29 with his best footy behind him. If you don't agree then that's fine but don't you dare come on here and say I'm clueless.

Chill out, CW. I thought you were done with this forum and were going to be devote your expertise to BF?

You seem to be hellbent on trading all of our veteran players. Believe it or not, the people involved in our list management know exactly what they're doing.

In the 2014 draft, we already had our fair share of first round picks. We had just come off a wooden spoon year. Armo was one of our better players that year. His experience and leadership was required for the rebuild process. It's all hypothetical, but having his service was invaluable and far better than the service of a rookie at the time. 2015 without a player like Armo could have been detrimental to the team's morale.

[elizabethr]

Armitage is contracted until the end of 2019.

[skeptic]

Obviously on this game thread I have raised some questions RE whether we have seen enough of the best of him.

The flip side to that issue is that it is very clear he provides a high level of intrinsic value to the team. I'm not exactly sure if this comes in the form of on/off-field leadership, training and professionalism or just that his attitude around the club is a desirable one that helps foster the right environment.

Naturally i suspect it's a combination of all of the above.

That is something that u underestimate at ur own peril.

Terry Wallace says that one of his biggest regrets at the Dogs was moving on Stephen Powell who filled a similar role there.

In David Armitage, I see Lenny Hayes greatness. I want it to be realised more

[Goose is king]

He's a gun

Good chat

[Scollop]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Actually, you are clueless Sainternist. This is a forum which means everyone is allowed to have an opinion. I honestly believe that if pick 12 was on offer from Richmond we should have taken it. We would now have a 20 year old gun with 30 games under his belt and his best footy ahead of him. Instead, we have Armo who is 29 with his best footy behind him. If you don't agree then that's fine but don't you dare come on here and say I'm clueless.

Chill out, CW. I thought you were done with this forum and were going to be devote your expertise to BF?

You seem to be hellbent on trading all of our veteran players. Believe it or not, the people involved in our list management know exactly what they're doing.

In the 2014 draft, we already had our fair share of first round picks. We had just come off a wooden spoon year. Armo was one of our better players that year. His experience and leadership was required for the rebuild process. It's all hypothetical, but having his service was invaluable and far better than the service of a rookie at the time. 2015 without a player like Armo could have been detrimental to the team's morale.

Valid points. Goddard, Dal Santo, Kosi, Milne, and Blake already gone, then McEvoy traded so it was time to bed down and change tack. As you say the club had to support the next generation with the senior players and leaders like Armo.

In Lenny Hayes last couple of years he spent his time mentoring the young mids, as did Milne and Schneider with the small forwards. I don't think Dempster would be the player he is without Chips being by his side. Same with Joey and now same with Armo

[lintonstreet]

# 20 is all heart and soul.
When the team was performing poorly in 2013 & 14 it was Armo that stood up and wouldn't submit.
Yes last year he was a little quiet as Seb and Jack took centre stage but in 2015 he was a bull.
In 2017, I'm expecting him to again be an elite mid in and under.

[skeptic]

It's interesting...
There has been not nearly as much defending of Armo's performance over the journey as i expected

[Wombat15]

It's interesting...
There has been not nearly as much defending of Armo's performance over the journey as i expected

His early years were a bit rough with a combination of attitude issues and Ross Lyons philosophy on team management.

His second half of his career from 2013 onward cant be faulted, when everyone else had left or walked out due to various reasons he stuck around.
If you offered me pick 12 in the 2013 draft i would've taken it retrospectively. back then i cant see why. looking around that mark only cripps has set the world on fired in that range. even then were the club going to take another cripps from wa?
big fan of armo gives his all every week, played a large majority of the season carrying knocks which obviously affected his form. with deeper rotation he can get rest when required. Was robbed in 2015 not to be in the AA squad of 40. Not sure how i would feel him being the face of the club but getting to 150 games isnt a fluke. Great on field mentor for the younger blokes coming up the ranks.

[damienc]

Armo-Steele-Ross-Acres-Dunstan.

We are set to monster sides on the inside.

All we need is one more fast classy player on the outside and look out.

Don't forget Kobe Stevens in that midfield mix. He played an important role in kick starting the dish lickers on their road to the premiership, before he got injured.

He will be good for us too.

[To the top]

One of the aspects of subjects such as this that has struck me since coming to Melbourne and then attending St Kilda games is that St Kilda has a rich and colorful history almost exclusively centred around some of the players who have represented the Club.

The trials and tribulations of the financial side of the operation that is now St Kilda FC is its own story.

But, on the field, we have the player list we have.

And the focus has been on these icon players of the Club and, indeed, successively in the VFL and now the AFL.

What, in my view anyway, has been the fault is that we have focused on our upper echelon and not on team.

Because, in the heat of the kitchen in finals, those icon players are focused on by the opposition requiring the "bottom 6 or 10" to contribute to the result - and they have not hence the results when we have sides that get us to finals.

One premiership in 1966.

So players such as Armitage are an absolute requirement - because he is a premiership 22 player.

Whether he be Number 1 or Number 22 does not matter - in fact if he is selected at Number 22 we are going to have a pretty fair side which should give the whole damn dance the very biggest of shakes.

Hopefully the recruitment and season availability of Carlisle and Freeman and now Steele, Stevens and Brown (and input from Goddard and McCartin plus improvement in others and the players to be Drafted - so, we are effectively adding 7 - and you could say 9 - players for 2017 putting pressure on 9 players who were in our 22 in 2016. That is a big number) we have a more balanced 22 available for selection, and more players who can actually influence a result and not just make up numbers - in fact 22 players capable of BOG performances on any given week including in Grand Finals.

So if our icon players are being subjected to attention limiting their influence, they change the nature of their input and someone else steps up as BOG, supported by others,

Hopefully we are the closest to such a List as we ever have been.

And THE result will be delivered - as will sustained success as we turn our List season on season to improve not only our upper echelon core but those who must support by standing when it is their turn.

In selecting a premiership 22 from our List, Armitage is in that 22

That is the criteria.

[Trev from the Bush]

Beautifully put ToT.

And amen.

[Jacks Back]

Beautifully put ToT.

And amen.

That wasn't tot that was TTT or T3?

But that is what I was trying to say in another thread. The champion team beats the team of champions analogy.

[skeptic]

One of the aspects of subjects such as this that has struck me since coming to Melbourne and then attending St Kilda games is that St Kilda has a rich and colorful history almost exclusively centred around some of the players who have represented the Club.

The trials and tribulations of the financial side of the operation that is now St Kilda FC is its own story.

But, on the field, we have the player list we have.

And the focus has been on these icon players of the Club and, indeed, successively in the VFL and now the AFL.

What, in my view anyway, has been the fault is that we have focused on our upper echelon and not on team.

Because, in the heat of the kitchen in finals, those icon players are focused on by the opposition requiring the "bottom 6 or 10" to contribute to the result - and they have not hence the results when we have sides that get us to finals.

One premiership in 1966.

So players such as Armitage are an absolute requirement - because he is a premiership 22 player.

Whether he be Number 1 or Number 22 does not matter - in fact if he is selected at Number 22 we are going to have a pretty fair side which should give the whole damn dance the very biggest of shakes.

Hopefully the recruitment and season availability of Carlisle and Freeman and now Steele, Stevens and Brown (and input from Goddard and McCartin plus improvement in others and the players to be Drafted - so, we are effectively adding 7 - and you could say 9 - players for 2017 putting pressure on 9 players who were in our 22 in 2016. That is a big number) we have a more balanced 22 available for selection, and more players who can actually influence a result and not just make up numbers - in fact 22 players capable of BOG performances on any given week including in Grand Finals.

So if our icon players are being subjected to attention limiting their influence, they change the nature of their input and someone else steps up as BOG, supported by others,

Hopefully we are the closest to such a List as we ever have been.

And THE result will be delivered - as will sustained success as we turn our List season on season to improve not only our upper echelon core but those who must support by standing when it is their turn.

In selecting a premiership 22 from our List, Armitage is in that 22

That is the criteria.

I'm a little miffed at this post... there are a lot of nice sentiments, but isn't Armo the definition of what we're talking about?

If you read you this thread from top to bottom, several themes emerge... not least of which is the status of which Armo appears to carry at the club that does not necessarily carry over to performance. That's not to say that he doesn't bring other highly desirable qualities to the club but there is a disconnect there and for whatever reason, ppl don't want to talk about.

Armo is 28 or 29 with one season of elite performance for about 2/3 of which.

We're all hoping that after a perceived injury riddled year, he gets back up there. But that's what it is, hope on a wing and prayer...

Isn't this thread evidence that Armo is an icon player? Certainly my feeling is that i will be hammered for the mere implication that perhaps onfield he doesn't meet the hype.
Several ppl have said YES HE IS, CLOSE THE THREAD DOWN!!!

Isn't the very definition of overhype = performance not meeting expectation?

[magnifisaint]

Should have traded him to Richmond 2 years ago for pick 12.

You really are clueless, aren't you?

Actually, you are clueless Sainternist. This is a forum which means everyone is allowed to have an opinion. I honestly believe that if pick 12 was on offer from Richmond we should have taken it. We would now have a 20 year old gun with 30 games under his belt and his best footy ahead of him. Instead, we have Armo who is 29 with his best footy behind him. If you don't agree then that's fine but don't you dare come on here and say I'm clueless.

Based on your definition of how a forum is operated, Sainternist's is entitled to his opinion of calling you an an idiot. I also agree with him.

<warning for baiting>

[Griggsy]

I see where you are coming from skeptic. The team can't put all its eggs in the "great guy and hard at it" basket. As much as I like armo we have 20-25yo players that play the same spot. I'm not saying gift it to them but when they start earning it something has to give, then what do you do?

[Impatient Sainter]

I tend to agree with the above he is not captain material and I like City West wouldnt have been dissapointed to see him traded?

For me there is no stand out captains perhaps Geary just because of his application!

Armitage wont be apart of a premiership team at the Saints...all our insiders will go past him and his lack of speed and delivery forward will see him out of side before out next finals campaign.

[To the top]

Ok, let's go to the crux of the matter.

The 22 who took the field for the final match of 2016 were:-

Riewoldt
Bruce
Lonie
Membrey
Wright
Steven
Armitage
Geary
Gilbert
Newnes
White
Fisher
Savage
Acres
Billings
Dempster
Holmes
McKenzie
Montagna
Roberton
Ross
Weller

Of those, Fisher will not be returning in 2017.

That game was an ordinary performance against a bottom and demoralised Club, in Melbourne not at the Gabba and a "shoot out" where Roo's 9 goals got us over the line by 50 points.

Available for 2017 we have:-

Hickey
Carlisle
Dunstan
Freeman
Longer
Gresham
Webster
McCartin
Steele
Stevens
Brown

Plus 2 Picks in the 2nd Round at the upcoming Draft

So at what stage do those 13 available interact with the available 21 who played in the last Round of 2016 and replace those in that 21?

I would suggest that Armitage is safe, and that he will be supported in the role he has performed with great distinction

In 2017 we will continue to have Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster and Gilbert as our mature core.

IF the recruitment (those 13 available) has been to the level we trust it has been, then 2017 should be right on the radar to go all the way.

IF the recruitment has "sold us pups", then we turn and move on with 2 First Round picks.

So let's play the game of intersecting the 13 with the 21 - to arrive at the 22 we look to take us all the way in 2017.

And see where Armitage lands in that game.

And everyone else because my view is that Armitage is the least of our problems and questioning him is a nonsense.

[skeptic]

I think you miss the point TTT,

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that Armo is FIRMLY entrenched in our top 22. He's contracted for some years yet so he certainly isn't going anywhere and IMO nor should he... certainly at least internally, it's pretty clear that he is highly important to fabric of the team as well.

Let me draw your attention to this thread on Bigfooty...

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ ... t-47842623

A Melbourne supporter seems to think that the Saints are primed for a serious tilt at the premiership next season. It's a pretty decent read with the key theme being that we're perhaps lacking a bit of high end talent in the middle.

Looking at a reasonable projection of our best 22, I actually agree that we're not to far off. The things is, our success and failure depends on a handful of players being able to take their game to the next level... yes guys like Acres, McCartin, Gresh, Dunstan etc are on that list but so is David Armitage.

We need him to be the player he was in 2015. He's not in this team anymore to be a good player with a few excellent a games season. He needs to be as good as Jack Steven or better

[fugazi]

Ok, let's go to the crux of the matter.

The 22 who took the field for the final match of 2016 were:-

Riewoldt
Bruce
Lonie
Membrey
Wright
Steven
Armitage
Geary
Gilbert
Newnes
White
Fisher
Savage
Acres
Billings
Dempster
Holmes
McKenzie
Montagna
Roberton
Ross
Weller

Of those, Fisher will not be returning in 2017.

That game was an ordinary performance against a bottom and demoralised Club, in Melbourne not at the Gabba and a "shoot out" where Roo's 9 goals got us over the line by 50 points.

Available for 2017 we have:-

Hickey
Carlisle
Dunstan
Freeman
Longer
Gresham
Webster
McCartin
Steele
Stevens
Brown

Plus 2 Picks in the 2nd Round at the upcoming Draft

So at what stage do those 13 available interact with the available 21 who played in the last Round of 2016 and replace those in that 21?

I would suggest that Armitage is safe, and that he will be supported in the role he has performed with great distinction

In 2017 we will continue to have Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster and Gilbert as our mature core.

IF the recruitment (those 13 available) has been to the level we trust it has been, then 2017 should be right on the radar to go all the way.

IF the recruitment has "sold us pups", then we turn and move on with 2 First Round picks.

So let's play the game of intersecting the 13 with the 21 - to arrive at the 22 we look to take us all the way in 2017.

And see where Armitage lands in that game.

And everyone else because my view is that Armitage is the least of our problems and questioning him is a nonsense.

I'll have a crack.
If we want a team that will become the team to win the premiership


Hickey in, Holmes out
Gresham in, Lonie out
Carlisle in, Fisher out
Webster in, White out
Steele in, Gilbert out
McCartin in, Wright out

Every one of those is a skill upgrade, except possibly Webster/White which could go either way...Webster gets nod for better experience

Possibly Dempster for Brown depending on match ups
Possibly Stevens for Billings if he doesn't harden up...but hopefully his excellent skills will shine next year.

[fugazi]

Ok, let's go to the crux of the matter.

The 22 who took the field for the final match of 2016 were:-

Riewoldt
Bruce
Lonie
Membrey
Wright
Steven
Armitage
Geary
Gilbert
Newnes
White
Fisher
Savage
Acres
Billings
Dempster
Holmes
McKenzie
Montagna
Roberton
Ross
Weller

Of those, Fisher will not be returning in 2017.

That game was an ordinary performance against a bottom and demoralised Club, in Melbourne not at the Gabba and a "shoot out" where Roo's 9 goals got us over the line by 50 points.

Available for 2017 we have:-

Hickey
Carlisle
Dunstan
Freeman
Longer
Gresham
Webster
McCartin
Steele
Stevens
Brown

Plus 2 Picks in the 2nd Round at the upcoming Draft

So at what stage do those 13 available interact with the available 21 who played in the last Round of 2016 and replace those in that 21?

I would suggest that Armitage is safe, and that he will be supported in the role he has performed with great distinction

In 2017 we will continue to have Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster and Gilbert as our mature core.

IF the recruitment (those 13 available) has been to the level we trust it has been, then 2017 should be right on the radar to go all the way.

IF the recruitment has "sold us pups", then we turn and move on with 2 First Round picks.

So let's play the game of intersecting the 13 with the 21 - to arrive at the 22 we look to take us all the way in 2017.

And see where Armitage lands in that game.

And everyone else because my view is that Armitage is the least of our problems and questioning him is a nonsense.

I'll have a crack.
If we want a team that will become the team to win the premiership


Hickey in, Holmes out
Gresham in, Lonie out
Carlisle in, Fisher out
Webster in, White out
Steele in, Gilbert out
McCartin in, Wright out

Every one of those is a skill upgrade, except possibly Webster/White which could go either way...Webster gets nod for better experience

Possibly Brown for Dempster depending on match ups
Possibly Stevens for Billings if he doesn't harden up...but hopefully his excellent skills will shine next year.

[fugazi]

A super fot Sinclair also a chance for Wellers spot eventually

[Bluthy]

I think ARmo had been in a pretty ordinary development environment when young. When Richo got him to lose a bit of weight and get his outside game going, it showed he did another level to go to showing real footy smarts in linkup play and setting guys up with his delivery. Previously he's always been treated as the in and under tank. My understanding is he's had a chronically bad back nearly his whole career he is constantly battling.

But what is on my mind a bit is Armo's groin He seemed to have a problem with it all year. That is a real worry for a 28/29 y.o. The dreaded OP curtailed Judd and Balls spread and forced them to play much more inside. My gut says the club is worried about ARmo's ability to spread hence Stevens and Steele coming in. But even if Armo is still dogged by the groin next year, he is still our only proven inside tank with Dunstan, Acres, Ross etc still developing into full strength mids (heh heh).

I didn't think we'd trade Armo as I reckon Richo thinks we could pinch a flag in the next couple of years and having Armo as a genuine blue collar huge bodied guy at the coalface is vital. But what we seem to be doing well is feeding in lots of talent and options onto our production line. If Armo does keep declining or stagnates, there will (hopefully) be more midfield units rolling off the line ready for service in Acres, Dunstan, Ross, maybe Billings, Gresham, Steele, Stevens, Freeman, maybe a couple of picks this year, some good picks next year, maybe even a quality FA.

That question that many of us wrestled with - how can you play Armo, Dunstan and Ross in the same 22 all as genuine onballers? Doesn't that make us too slow? That seemed to be answered a bit with Armo getting his outside game going in 2015 and Ross developing a strong endurance motor even if he isn't super quick. But if ARmo loses that spread, then it does raise that question again as Dunstan isn't looking particularly quick. The coach wants options to balance out his team and that seems to be what we are developing. Modern footy is now so much about contraction and expansion. Richo will want a midfield that can do that with the best of them. So will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Richo now has quite a few midfield options to play with and should develop many more in the next couple of years.

ps I think Armo would be a great skipper for a couple of years. He seems a genuine leader to me and I don't see him being a bit of a joker as a bad thing. Hodge was like that apparently. Roo probably had a stick up his ass a bit too much.