Another tragic twist of the tale to missing out on Judd.

[Drake Huggins]

As if it wasn't bad enough to that we outsmarted ourselves (or rather the WCE outsmarted us) in trying to get Ball and Judd, there is another tragic twist of fate which may have denied us the champ and that elusive second flag. You see, Chris's father, Bernie, was a Xavier student up until the final term of his Matriculation, or VCE equivalent. In the finest traditions of the tragic history of Xavier's muck up day pranks, Bernie decided to steal a tram and drive it up to the college from the Kew depot. He slipped into the tram while the drivers' were changing shift and took off.

A number of customers complained that the tram failed to stop and pick them up. An investigation ensued and Judd the elder was promptly expelled on the spot. He managed to finish the year but had to do his exams at the Exhibition Buildings, as he was barred from the Kew campus. He vowed he would never set foot in any Xavier campus again, nor would any of his future sons. That is a big oath to take, especially given Xavier's record of nepotism and cronyism.

Fast forward to Juddy Junior's school career. His father refused point blank to send him to the Jesuits in Kew. He opts for the Protestants at Caulfield Grammar. History changed at that moment. Xavier's loss was Caulfield's gain. I was just supposing that had Bernie Judd not pinched that tram, and gotten expelled, would he have followed tradition and sent his progeny to Xavier? Would this have meant that GT would've fallen in love with Juddy before Ball, because Juddy would have then been a "Xavier Man?" Would that have meant we would've taken Judd at pick 2 instead of pick 5, which was the reverse of what we actually planned for?

All just grist for the mill, but another story of what might have been for the saints. In a parallel universe somewhere, Juddy went to Xavier, was taken at pick two and went on to captain the saints to four premierships, being 2004-5, 2009-10. Sliding doors.

[Darth Vader]

Number 1 most damaging draft non-selection in the history of the AFL draft. By miles. Not necessarily worst decision (such as Fiora over Pavlich by Richmond) but most damaging in cost of premierships given how close we were multiple times over that time-period and given our historical lack of success.

[Joffa Burns]

As if it wasn't bad enough to that we outsmarted ourselves (or rather the WCE outsmarted us) in trying to get Ball and Judd, there is another tragic twist of fate which may have denied us the champ and that elusive second flag. You see, Chris's father, Bernie, was a Xavier student up until the final term of his Matriculation, or VCE equivalent. In the finest traditions of the tragic history of Xavier's muck up day pranks, Bernie decided to steal a tram and drive it up to the college from the Kew depot. He slipped into the tram while the drivers' were changing shift and took off.

A number of customers complained that the tram failed to stop and pick them up. An investigation ensued and Judd the elder was promptly expelled on the spot. He managed to finish the year but had to do his exams at the Exhibition Buildings, as he was barred from the Kew campus. He vowed he would never set foot in any Xavier campus again, nor would any of his future sons. That is a big oath to take, especially given Xavier's record of nepotism and cronyism.

Fast forward to Juddy Junior's school career. His father refused point blank to send him to the Jesuits in Kew. He opts for the Protestants at Caulfield Grammar. History changed at that moment. Xavier's loss was Caulfield's gain. I was just supposing that had Bernie Judd not pinched that tram, and gotten expelled, would he have followed tradition and sent his progeny to Xavier? Would this have meant that GT would've fallen in love with Juddy before Ball, because Juddy would have then been a "Xavier Man?" Would that have meant we would've taken Judd at pick 2 instead of pick 5, which was the reverse of what we actually planned for?

All just grist for the mill, but another story of what might have been for the saints. In a parallel universe somewhere, Juddy went to Xavier, was taken at pick two and went on to captain the saints to four premierships, being 2004-5, 2009-10. Sliding doors.

Keep in mind if Juddy went to Xavier and the came to the Saints, then Xavier would would not have been at the Saints at #5 - scary!
And if no Xavier, would we have picked Raph?
No Raph and no whipping boy, would the whipping boy have been another?
So Juddy's dad saved an anonymous Saint from being the Raph whipping boy replacement by stealing a tram, who would have guessed?

[dragit]

I just went back in a time machine, unfortunately Judd broke both legs in his first intra-club match after we selected him and is never the same player again.

So no need to worry any longer.

[parkeysainter]

And we picked McEvoy over Dangerfield.

[SaintPav]

All he had to do was stop and pick up the customers.

[sunsaint]

I have no idea why people keep getting their panties in a knot over C Judd Vs L Ball
They both have exactly the same number of Premiership Meadallions

[Linton Lodger]

Judd seems to induce an almost demented regret in many.

The Hawthorn recruiting guy that took Hodge ahead of Judd, was sacked for not taking Judd when Judd exploded onto the scene. I wonder if the Hawthorn FC have profusely apologised to, and thanked that Recruiting guy they sacked for getting it right!

Judd had nothing to do with our failure to win flags. It wasn't Judd who:

* Mismanaged training services from 2004 - 2006.
* Maxed out our salary cap investing heavily in our top 12 players, and some may argue overpaying some of them.
* Rolled the Board in 2007 and replaced it with a new one of the incompetent kind.*
* Severly knobbled Luke Ball from 2006 to 2009.
* Prevented Xavier Clarke's body from staying together and gave Raph Clarke Eplilepsy.
* Invaded the ground after the G Train kicked his 100th in the 2004 Preliminary.
* Squandered numerous opportunities when controlling much of the 2009 GF.
* Desperately punched the ball out of Kosi's vice like hands 20 metres from goal in the lst 2 seconds of the 2010 GF.

I tell you what did cost us back to back flags in 2009/10. The premature end of Aaron Hamill's career.

[Drake Huggins]

Judd is indeed innocent of those terrible blunders, LL. Just imagine the difference his speed and run would've made in the 09-10 GF's . Imagine his effect on the team's performance in 2004-5, when he was the best player in the competition. Imagine having both Ball and Judd in the same team during 2004-5 before Ball was cooked. Imagine Judd running through and breaking lines during otherwise congested GF's. Imagine Judd's devastating finishing ahead of Kosi and Roo. Imagine his deadly goalkicking in place of Schneider, Guerra, McQualter and Eddy.

Hamill was strong, courageous and a very good player. Judd is one of the best of all time. No comparison. Answer honestly, LL, who would you rather have lineup for us in any of those 4 GF's, Aaron "two weeks" Hamill, who was finished as a player due to injury by 2006. Or would we go with a Premiership player and captain, Brownlow medallist, multiple B&F winner and multiple AA?

It is demented denial to think that wasn't the worst and most costly recruiting blunder our club ever made, with the Stewart/Barrott trade being the only one that came close. Both cost us at least one flag apiece.

[stonecold]

Some people just keep looking over their shoulders, move on!!!!!

[stonecold]

Some people just keep looking over their shoulders, move on!!!!!

[Drake Huggins]

Just tying to create some interesting banter and intelligent discussion. Seems I succeeded until captain exclamation mark predictably popped up with the usual. It is said common cold, that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. In your case, that is obvious!!!!!!!

[Sainternist]

I won't be bemoaning the club too much for making the choice of Ball over Judd, because Bally was a fantastic prospect when we first got him. He developed into an elite midfielder by around 2004. It was just rotten luck that he fell victim to OP not long afterwards and his ability was hampered.

Number 1 most damaging draft non-selection in the history of the AFL draft. By miles. Not necessarily worst decision (such as Fiora over Pavlich by Richmond) but most damaging in cost of premierships given how close we were multiple times over that time-period and given our historical lack of success.

I seem to recall we also overlooked Peter Matera for Jody Arnol

[stonecold]

Just tying to create some interesting banter and intelligent discussion. Seems I succeeded until captain exclamation mark predictably popped up with the usual. It is said common cold, that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. In your case, that is obvious!!!!!!!

Look forward whilst walking, or your likely to get hit, didn't your 21 years of recruiting teach you anything, no need to answer, my world is a better place without your opinion, thanks anyway!!!!!

[Drake Huggins]

Just tying to create some interesting banter and intelligent discussion. Seems I succeeded until captain exclamation mark predictably popped up with the usual. It is said common cold, that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. In your case, that is obvious!!!!!!!

Look forward whilst walking, or your likely to get hit, didn't your 21 years of recruiting teach you anything, no need to answer, my world is a better place without your opinion, thanks anyway!!!!!

That's disappointing. I enjoy our exchanges. They remind me of WWE. Disappointing. Please reconsider??????

[takeaway]

Interesting story. With our luck if we had landed Judd he would have got OP in 2004 and had his career cruelled. Who is to say? Even with Ball being half the player in 2009, maybe he should had got more playing time in the GF - might have changed things. Kicked a vital goal in 2010.

You could go on with "if onlys" for the next 3 months and it wouldn't make any difference. Good pre season filler I suppose.

[Drake Huggins]

Interesting story. With our luck if we had landed Judd he would have got OP in 2004 and had his career cruelled. Who is to say? Even with Ball being half the player in 2009, maybe he should had got more playing time in the GF - might have changed things. Kicked a vital goal in 2010.

You could go on with "if onlys" for the next 3 months and it wouldn't make any difference. Good pre season filler I suppose.

Got it in one. We need some fillers as the club's media activities have been as low key as I can remember. I hope we're foxing and trying to fly under the radar, although I don't quite know why we would want to.

[Devilhead]

Luke Penny and Matt Maguire

[sunsaint]

Luke Penny and Matt Maguire

Agreed
We let Matt go too cheaply

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Judd seems to induce an almost demented regret in many.

The Hawthorn recruiting guy that took Hodge ahead of Judd, was sacked for not taking Judd when Judd exploded onto the scene. I wonder if the Hawthorn FC have profusely apologised to, and thanked that Recruiting guy they sacked for getting it right!

Judd had nothing to do with our failure to win flags. It wasn't Judd who:

* Mismanaged training services from 2004 - 2006.
* Maxed out our salary cap investing heavily in our top 12 players, and some may argue overpaying some of them.
* Rolled the Board in 2007 and replaced it with a new one of the incompetent kind.*
* Severly knobbled Luke Ball from 2006 to 2009.
* Prevented Xavier Clarke's body from staying together and gave Raph Clarke Eplilepsy.
* Invaded the ground after the G Train kicked his 100th in the 2004 Preliminary.
* Squandered numerous opportunities when controlling much of the 2009 GF.
* Desperately punched the ball out of Kosi's vice like hands 20 metres from goal in the lst 2 seconds of the 2010 GF.

I tell you what did cost us back to back flags in 2009/10. The premature end of Aaron Hamill's career.

Don't recall the last one. Who punched the ball out of Kosi's vice like hands in 2010?

I remember Kosi himself punching a ball through the Collingwood goals, unnecessarily I thought, and that might have cost us the match. Also Fisher thumping the ball downfield -- to Gilbert? -- when Kosi was free in the centre.

[Linton Lodger]

Judd is indeed innocent of those terrible blunders, LL. Just imagine the difference his speed and run would've made in the 09-10 GF's . Imagine his effect on the team's performance in 2004-5, when he was the best player in the competition. Imagine having both Ball and Judd in the same team during 2004-5 before Ball was cooked. Imagine Judd running through and breaking lines during otherwise congested GF's. Imagine Judd's devastating finishing ahead of Kosi and Roo. Imagine his deadly goalkicking in place of Schneider, Guerra, McQualter and Eddy.

Hamill was strong, courageous and a very good player. Judd is one of the best of all time. No comparison. Answer honestly, LL, who would you rather have lineup for us in any of those 4 GF's, Aaron "two weeks" Hamill, who was finished as a player due to injury by 2006. Or would we go with a Premiership player and captain, Brownlow medallist, multiple B&F winner and multiple AA?

It is demented denial to think that wasn't the worst and most costly recruiting blunder our club ever made, with the Stewart/Barrott trade being the only one that came close. Both cost us at least one flag apiece.

I've never been a huge admirer of Judd, Drake. I'm a massive fan of Aaron Hamill. That doesn't mean I don't think Judd was a gun, but in hindsight I think Hodge was the best of the three and none of the three anywhere near Ablett jnr (a father/son who I don't think was even rated top 10) or Ben Cousins at his best.

Collingwood won the 2010 flag because Malthouse basically copied Ross Lyon's gameplan. The advantage Malthouse had was a list fitter than anybody else's (due to surperior resources). Importantly in addition, whilst we had one genuine key forward (Riewoldt) and a ruckman holding down the other key forward post (Kosi), Collingwood had three quality big forwards. Cloke was at the peak of his powers, Dawes was a very good key forward at the time and Leigh Brown who could also hold down second ruck, was a good big forward.

If we'd had Hamill in our forward line, Kosi would have taken the third best defender or Hamill would have and no defence could have stopped us kicking winning scores. Kosi could have also been the second ruck to Gardiner making us even better. Didn't Hamill also miss finals in 2004/2005? Imagine adding him to Riewoldt and the G-Train, unstoppable. Not to mention his leadership and awesome physical presence in the forward half.

Would Judd have delivered us a flag? I don't believe that's anywhere near a given. He may have in 2004 assuming his form was the same as his West Coast form. In 2005 we lost the Preliminary because of injuries, our key defenders (Hudgton & Maguire) played underdone after long layoffs (which was evident in that final quarter) and we were slaughtered in the Ruck. I doubt Judd would have made the difference. In 2009/2010 Judd wasn't the player he was in 2004/05 and had lost some leg speed. He definitely would have made our midfield better, but it still wouldn't have batted as deep as the Geelong then Collingwood midfields.

The inclusion of Hamill on the other hand would have impacted on the oppositions' structures and made us very difficult to contain. So I think that Hamill was more likely to deliver us premierships.

The Stewart/Barrott trade was a howler and probably cost us the '71 Flag.

[Linton Lodger]

Judd seems to induce an almost demented regret in many.

The Hawthorn recruiting guy that took Hodge ahead of Judd, was sacked for not taking Judd when Judd exploded onto the scene. I wonder if the Hawthorn FC have profusely apologised to, and thanked that Recruiting guy they sacked for getting it right!

Judd had nothing to do with our failure to win flags. It wasn't Judd who:

* Mismanaged training services from 2004 - 2006.
* Maxed out our salary cap investing heavily in our top 12 players, and some may argue overpaying some of them.
* Rolled the Board in 2007 and replaced it with a new one of the incompetent kind.*
* Severly knobbled Luke Ball from 2006 to 2009.
* Prevented Xavier Clarke's body from staying together and gave Raph Clarke Eplilepsy.
* Invaded the ground after the G Train kicked his 100th in the 2004 Preliminary.
* Squandered numerous opportunities when controlling much of the 2009 GF.
* Desperately punched the ball out of Kosi's vice like hands 20 metres from goal in the lst 2 seconds of the 2010 GF.

I tell you what did cost us back to back flags in 2009/10. The premature end of Aaron Hamill's career.

Don't recall the last one. Who punched the ball out of Kosi's vice like hands in 2010?

I remember Kosi himself punching a ball through the Collingwood goals, unnecessarily I thought, and that might have cost us the match. Also Fisher thumping the ball downfield -- to Gilbert? -- when Kosi was free in the centre.

Nick Maxwell. The footy had hit Kosi's hands and he had it, Maxwell desperetely lunged backards and managed to punch it out of his hands without infringing, the siren went a second or 2 later.

[Drake Huggins]

Judd is indeed innocent of those terrible blunders, LL. Just imagine the difference his speed and run would've made in the 09-10 GF's . Imagine his effect on the team's performance in 2004-5, when he was the best player in the competition. Imagine having both Ball and Judd in the same team during 2004-5 before Ball was cooked. Imagine Judd running through and breaking lines during otherwise congested GF's. Imagine Judd's devastating finishing ahead of Kosi and Roo. Imagine his deadly goalkicking in place of Schneider, Guerra, McQualter and Eddy.

Hamill was strong, courageous and a very good player. Judd is one of the best of all time. No comparison. Answer honestly, LL, who would you rather have lineup for us in any of those 4 GF's, Aaron "two weeks" Hamill, who was finished as a player due to injury by 2006. Or would we go with a Premiership player and captain, Brownlow medallist, multiple B&F winner and multiple AA?

It is demented denial to think that wasn't the worst and most costly recruiting blunder our club ever made, with the Stewart/Barrott trade being the only one that came close. Both cost us at least one flag apiece.

I've never been a huge admirer of Judd, Drake. I'm a massive fan of Aaron Hamill. That doesn't mean I don't think Judd was a gun, but in hindsight I think Hodge was the best of the three and none of the three anywhere near Ablett jnr (a father/son who I don't think was even rated top 10) or Ben Cousins at his best.

Collingwood won the 2010 flag because Malthouse basically copied Ross Lyon's gameplan. The advantage Malthouse had was a list fitter than anybody else's (due to surperior resources). Importantly in addition, whilst we had one genuine key forward (Riewoldt) and a ruckman holding down the other key forward post (Kosi), Collingwood had three quality big forwards. Cloke was at the peak of his powers, Dawes was a very good key forward at the time and Leigh Brown who could also hold down second ruck, was a good big forward.

If we'd had Hamill in our forward line, Kosi would have taken the third best defender or Hamill would have and no defence could have stopped us kicking winning scores. Kosi could have also been the second ruck to Gardiner making us even better. Didn't Hamill also miss finals in 2004/2005? Imagine adding him to Riewoldt and the G-Train, unstoppable. Not to mention his leadership and awesome physical presence in the forward half.

Would Judd have delivered us a flag? I don't believe that's anywhere near a given. He may have in 2004 assuming his form was the same as his West Coast form. In 2005 we lost the Preliminary because of injuries, our key defenders (Hudgton & Maguire) played underdone after long layoffs (which was evident in that final quarter) and we were slaughtered in the Ruck. I doubt Judd would have made the difference. In 2009/2010 Judd wasn't the player he was in 2004/05 and had lost some leg speed. He definitely would have made our midfield better, but it still wouldn't have batted as deep as the Geelong then Collingwood midfields.

The inclusion of Hamill on the other hand would have impacted on the oppositions' structures and made us very difficult to contain. So I think that Hamill was more likely to deliver us premierships.

The Stewart/Barrott trade was a howler and probably cost us the '71 Flag.

Hard to argue with any of that LL. Some very compelling arguments in your post. I did throw this up with a sense of tragic misfortune that has bedevilled us throughout our history. I was an admirer of Hamill as well. Just imagine Ball, Judd and Hamill in the same side, all fit and firing? 2004 and 2009 would have been certainties IMHO. Dreaming of what might have been. Sigh. If only Hamill hadn't tried to give Stevie J a Corky, missing his thigh with his knee, and instead collecting the hip, he would've played another 4 years. That injury was the unfortunate genesis of the "Hamill, knee -2weeks" saga. Bugger.

[stevie]

Hamill would’ve been 32 in 09. Would he still be the same wrecking ball even if fit? Hard to say.