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Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Flawed logic? You make out the drafting and development are done in comeplete silos. That is your first fundamental flaw right there.
Secondly you are simply factually incorrect.
Serously your post is so idiotic and illogical I am not even going to waste my time addressing it.
But here are some names for you to think about.
Nick Vlaustin
David Astbury
Alex Rance
Dylan Grimes
All drafted by Richmond
Joel Hamling
Easton Wood
Both drafted by Bulldogs
Ben Stratton, Heath Grundy (R), Dane Rampe (R), Matthew Scarlett, Harry Taylor.
If you think 15th is a good result for our development model after 7 years outside finals you must be having a laff.
Here are some KPDs that have come and gone and that you have conveniently forgotten:
Matthew Ferguson
Will Johnson
Tom Simpkin
Jay Lever
Beau Maister
Tom Lee
Hugh Goddard
Oscar Clavarino* (*too young to call)
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:00pm, edited 2 times in total.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Flawed logic?
Serously your post is so idiotic and illogical I am not even going to waste my time addressing it.
But here are some names for you to think about.
Nick Vlaustin
David Astbury
Alex Rance
Dylan Grimes
All drafted by Richmond
Joel Hamling
Easton Wood
All drafted by Bulldogs
Ben Stratton, Heath Grundy, Dane Rampe, Matthew Scarlett, Harry Taylor.
If you think 15th is a good result for our development model after 7 years outside finals you must be having a laff.
Exactly - "drafted" by those clubs, and then developed. We haven't "drafted" any to develop, except the two mentioned. So your argument of poor development of young kpds by the club falls over. So we are 15th because we haven't "developed" any kpds, but traded them in instead, is the cause of our position on the ladder?
Of course we have to draft and develop kpd's as well as other areas. Why would anyone want to get rejects from other clubs to be our first line in defence? How would getting second rate players improve us long term?
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Flawed logic?
Serously your post is so idiotic and illogical I am not even going to waste my time addressing it.
But here are some names for you to think about.
Nick Vlaustin
David Astbury
Alex Rance
Dylan Grimes
All drafted by Richmond
Joel Hamling
Easton Wood
All drafted by Bulldogs
Ben Stratton, Heath Grundy, Dane Rampe, Matthew Scarlett, Harry Taylor.
If you think 15th is a good result for our development model after 7 years outside finals you must be having a laff.
Exactly - "drafted" by those clubs, and then developed. We haven't "drafted" any to develop, except the two mentioned. So your argument of poor development of young kpds by the club falls over. So we are 15th because we haven't "developed" any kpds, but traded them in instead, is the cause of our position on the ladder?
Seriously what?
Firstly I can name 8.
At least 6 of which are busts and probably 7 and maybe 8.
Matthew Ferguson, Will Johnson, Tom Simpkin, Jay Lever, Beau Maister, Tom Lee, Hugh Goddard, Oscar Clavarino*.
Secondly - the whole list mgt/drafting/development model is broken.
If you think relying entirely on rejects is a good model - I have no words.
You need to develop your own players - and then trade players in strategically like the Tiges have done with Caddy, Houli and Prestia.
Seriously!
Clearly you need BOTH!!!!
And you want to lecture me on logic?
Dude.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jacks Back wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 10:59pm
Of course we have to draft and develop kpd's as well as other areas. Why would anyone want to get rejects from other clubs to be our first line in defence? How would getting second rate players improve us long term?
Agree, but we haven't really drafted in that area to date, because our drafting rightly or wrongly has been other positions. Claravino is the first for a while last year. Carlisle and Dempster are not second rate, and Brown is OK on the big forwards. Lake wasn't too bad for Hawthorn.
Jacks Back wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 10:59pm
Of course we have to draft and develop kpd's as well as other areas. Why would anyone want to get rejects from other clubs to be our first line in defence? How would getting second rate players improve us long term?
Jacks Back wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 10:59pm
Of course we have to draft and develop kpd's as well as other areas. Why would anyone want to get rejects from other clubs to be our first line in defence? How would getting second rate players improve us long term?
Agree, but we haven't really drafted in that area to date, because our drafting rightly or wrongly has been other positions. Claravino is the first for a while last year. Carlisle and Dempster are not second rate, and Brown is OK on the big forwards. Lake wasn't too bad for Hawthorn.
Yeah ok.
So now you are comparing us to Hawthorn.
Shows you are living in reality and have both feet planted on terra firma.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Flawed logic?
Serously your post is so idiotic and illogical I am not even going to waste my time addressing it.
But here are some names for you to think about.
Nick Vlaustin
David Astbury
Alex Rance
Dylan Grimes
All drafted by Richmond
Joel Hamling
Easton Wood
All drafted by Bulldogs
Ben Stratton, Heath Grundy, Dane Rampe, Matthew Scarlett, Harry Taylor.
If you think 15th is a good result for our development model after 7 years outside finals you must be having a laff.
Exactly - "drafted" by those clubs, and then developed. We haven't "drafted" any to develop, except the two mentioned. So your argument of poor development of young kpds by the club falls over. So we are 15th because we haven't "developed" any kpds, but traded them in instead, is the cause of our position on the ladder?
Seriously what?
Firstly I can name 8.
At least 6 of which are busts and probably 7 and maybe 8.
Matthew Ferguson, Will Johnson, Tom Simpkin, Jay Lever, Beau Maister, Tom Lee, Hugh Goddard, Oscar Clavarino.
Secondly - the whole list mgt/drafting/development model is broken.
If you think relying entirely on rejects is a good model - I have no words.
You need to develop your own players - and then trade players in strategically like the Tiges have done with Caddy, Houli and Prestia.
Seriously!
Clearly you need BOTH!!!!
And you want to lecture me on logic?
Dude.
We're talking kpd - only 2 of your names are KPD, and I mentioned them. Keep trying.
I never said we should rely entirely on rejects, drafting and developing is the main game, but you need to trade in as well, and that is what we have done for kpds. It is just history. Carlisle, Dempster & others are hardly rejects anyway.
Last edited by takeaway on Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 6:11pm
Sam Fisher started in 2004.
Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.
So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.
f****** disgraceful.
You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.
Plain f****** disgraceful.
What's wrong with that? Bring them in, no need to develop. Dempster did improve with us, but.
Jesus effn christ. You cannot be serious. What's the point of getting the number 1 pick or a number 3 pick in the draft if you have crap development coaches?
If a club cannot develop players and there's a good example above from Con, then how are you supposed to have any chance of climbing the ladder. Think about it...you get all excited because you're going to get a low draft pick or some multiple low draft picks and they do not come on the way they should...or the way they could...it is a recipe for perpetual underperformance
Bit of flawed logic on show here (again) - we haven't developed any kpd from the draft in 14 years. No, we haven't really - because we hardly drafted any to develop! There is Goddard, and he wasn't specifically a kpd (also kpf) and who has had his injuries, but seems to be showing something now, and Clavarino, who's just arrived! Who else have we drafted as a kpd to develop? The drafting has concentrated on other areas, and we have, as Con has said brought in the kpds. Again, what is wrong with that? Trading, same as other clubs. So the argument is flawed.
If you say we have crap development coaches, prove it. I would argue that as with every club, there are hit and misses, but quite a few of the youngsters are developing quite well. They are not kpd. A major issue is the dearth of "fully developed" senior players from the 2006-10 draft period - one only - Steven. He's been developed OK.
Flawed logic?
Serously your post is so idiotic and illogical I am not even going to waste my time addressing it.
But here are some names for you to think about.
Nick Vlaustin
David Astbury
Alex Rance
Dylan Grimes
All drafted by Richmond
Joel Hamling
Easton Wood
All drafted by Bulldogs
Ben Stratton, Heath Grundy, Dane Rampe, Matthew Scarlett, Harry Taylor.
If you think 15th is a good result for our development model after 7 years outside finals you must be having a laff.
Exactly - "drafted" by those clubs, and then developed. We haven't "drafted" any to develop, except the two mentioned. So your argument of poor development of young kpds by the club falls over. So we are 15th because we haven't "developed" any kpds, but traded them in instead, is the cause of our position on the ladder?
Seriously what?
Firstly I can name 8.
At least 6 of which are busts and probably 7 and maybe 8.
Matthew Ferguson, Will Johnson, Tom Simpkin, Jay Lever, Beau Maister, Tom Lee, Hugh Goddard, Oscar Clavarino.
Secondly - the whole list mgt/drafting/development model is broken.
If you think relying entirely on rejects is a good model - I have no words.
You need to develop your own players - and then trade players in strategically like the Tiges have done with Caddy, Houli and Prestia.
Seriously!
Clearly you need BOTH!!!!
And you want to lecture me on logic?
Dude.
We're talking kpd - only 2 of your names are KPD, and I mentioned them. Keep trying.
Err.
Which 2?
Just cause they were s*** doesnt mean they werent KPds or at least tried there.
takeaway wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:11pm
We're talking kpd - only 2 of your names are KPD, and I mentioned them. Keep trying.
I never said we should rely entirely on rejects, drafting and developing is the main game, but you need to trade in as well, and that is what we have done for kpds. It is just history. Carlisle, Dempster & others are hardly rejects anyway.
Seriously
Which 2.
Name the 2.
Carlisle was obviously a very rare set of freak one off circumstances.
Dempster moved with Lyon.
Collingwood 100% rejected Nate Brown. Port 100% rejected Logan.
takeaway wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:11pm
We're talking kpd - only 2 of your names are KPD, and I mentioned them. Keep trying.
I never said we should rely entirely on rejects, drafting and developing is the main game, but you need to trade in as well, and that is what we have done for kpds. It is just history. Carlisle, Dempster & others are hardly rejects anyway.
Seriously
Which 2.
Name the 2.
Carlisle was obviously a very rare set of freak one off circumstances.
Dempster moved with Lyon.
Collingwood 100% rejected Nate Brown. Port 100% rejected Logan.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:20pm
Honestly if people think Nate Brown with 3 years of contracts is good business - I give up.
The reason we have to take him on is because we have noone else and havent produced our own KPD player in a decade.
Face it.
Its a f****** joke. People should be embarrassed.
takeway is cluthing at straws.
Ok Con. Carry on with your active-low logic. I'll go and cluth another straw.
So you think we are going ok at developing players or are you saying development is a waste of time because we can just save the investment and cherry pick ready made players? If the latter how is that panning out for us in your mind?
Either way you are f****** kidding yourself.
The fact is I named 12 players we have drafted and who played KPD and at least of 11 of them are fails.
Im giving you more than logic. I am giving you plain facts.
takeaway wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:11pm
We're talking kpd - only 2 of your names are KPD, and I mentioned them. Keep trying.
I never said we should rely entirely on rejects, drafting and developing is the main game, but you need to trade in as well, and that is what we have done for kpds. It is just history. Carlisle, Dempster & others are hardly rejects anyway.
Seriously
Which 2.
Name the 2.
Carlisle was obviously a very rare set of freak one off circumstances.
Dempster moved with Lyon.
Collingwood 100% rejected Nate Brown. Port 100% rejected Logan.
As stated earlier, Goddard & Claravino
LOL
I gather you only just started supporting us?
Simpkin, Johnson & J Ferguson were all regulars at FB and CHB for Sandy. It is well known Lee was tried at FB and played a season there at Sandy. Here you go
Versatile key position player Tom Lee spent the bulk of 2015 playing at full-back for Sandringham in the VFL, before an ankle injury ended his season in August.
The 24-year-old reinvented himself in a defensive key post after spending the majority of his career to date at the other end of the ground.
Seriously FFS. It is on our own website.
Will Johnson
Personal information
Full name Will Johnson
Date of birth 26 October 1989 (age 28)
Original team(s) Collegians, Sandringham
Draft No. 77, 2009 National Draft
Height 191 cm (6 ft 3 in)
Weight 91 kg (201 lb)
Position(s) Defender
Playing career1
Years Club Games (Goals)
2010–2011 St Kilda 1 (0)
1 Playing statistics correct to the end of 2011.
Sources: AFL Tables, AustralianFootball.com
Will Johnson (born 26 October 1989) is an Australian rules footballer who played as a defender for the St Kilda Football Club in the Australian Football League (AFL).
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 11:20pm
Honestly if people think Nate Brown with 3 years of contracts is good business - I give up.
The reason we have to take him on is because we have noone else and havent produced our own KPD player in a decade.
Face it.
Its a f****** joke. People should be embarrassed.
takeway is cluthing at straws.
Ok Con. Carry on with your active-low logic. I'll go and cluth another straw.
So you think we are going ok at developing players or are you saying development is a waste of time because we can just save the investment and cherry pick ready made players? If the latter how is that panning out for us in your mind?
Either way you are f****** kidding yourself.
The fact is I named 12 players we have drafted and who played KPD and at least of 11 of them are fails.
Im giving you more than logic. I am giving you plain facts.
You haven't named 12 who were drafted to fill a kpd position. One is a ruckman, several hbf & utilities, and most were very high draft picks or rookies. A priority has hardly been placed on drafting and developing kpd. Except Goddard & Claravino as stated. Maybe they should have but they decided to bring them in. Facts.
A lot of the youngsters from 2011 drafts onwards are developing well, despite the lack of senior support from the 2006-10 draft periods, and the newly arrived, such as Clark, Coffield - looking good, and Claravino needs more development, but looks Ok , a kpd of course. Mid rung next year.
Con Gorozidis wrote: ↑Wed 01 Aug 2018 10:42pm
Brown and Carlisle are so slow it isnt funny.
Carlisle is a good player because he reads the play well, is fit and very tall.
