Real or Over reaction

[older saint]

Like this on 360 so here is my take on the 2021 St. Kilda squad:

Real:
- We have too many of the same type of midfielder. Crouch wanted to come and was an upgrade on Ross and younger but has left us with a midfield that reminds me of Melbourne 2019 - Hard bodies, inside mids which lack run and carry ( Oliver, Viney, Jones / Steele, Crouch, Ross/ Dunstan/ Bytel)
- Injuries to key , unique, list players have seriously hurt us. Jones, Gresham, Marshall and even Paton has changed the sides weapons.
- We need to take a step backwards to take 2 forwards. 2021 and even perhaps 2022 may see us seem to stay from a position perspective the same, but the demographic and importance of the side on the field will change to really challenge beyond that.
- Hannebery recruitment is a millstone that needs to be cut free. Reality is old boys club recruitment and fortunately at the time didn't cost other players as we weren't paying anyone. Negotiate a deal out and remove the millstone.
- Ben King is not the answer. Controversial but looking at our list we need silk, pace and class - Taranto, Kelly, even Rankin are the type of players we should be hunting . Only Asterix I put on this is if the plan is to play him CHB - which seems strange to pay a heap for a key forward who you want to make into a backman?
- Goal kicking is not just the yips. This is reflective of our overall foot skills . For some it may be the yips but the same story for 4 of the last 5 seasons. The first thing with a problem is to admit you have it and we have a problem in that what has been done to correct this has not worked, however as was shown last week we wont admit it.
- Tougher draw has shown us up . finishing top 6 last year following an easier draw in 2020 has shown us up - Port, rich, geel, Bris, all have maintained or improved. WB, Syd, Melbourne are significantly better.

Over reaction:
- Billings plays a bad game (perhaps injured perhaps not) and therefore should be traded. Has been consistent for a 2 seasons now and was not responsible for the position he was picked. Would we be better without him - doubtful as at best i think you get a late first round pick which then requires 3 years development . Unless asks for silly money!
- Ratten and coaches need to go. Typical St.Kilda, for once hold your nerve - Look at Richmond 2016, Geelong 2006 Dynasties which didn't throw the baby out with the bath water . Not saying we are at that point but you don't suddenly lose the ability to coach in 8 months.
- Dunstan should play reserves as likely to be gone. Best team should be on the park each week , and if Dunstan isn't in the long term plans is it not better , form permitting, to play him and then get a3rd round pick for him than have him in the 2's and get nothing? Selection integrity is crucial.
- Major list changes of 10-14 will solve the problem. Name me one side which has under gone major list changes and been much better the next season. Some will be forced and some will be needed but change for change sake only works if what you bring in is better.
- King isn't interested . 27 games in , key position player - compare his stats to some others at the same time. Yes he needs to get a bigger tank ( so do most 2nd year mids) ,yes he needs to get stronger - will happen over time, but when was the last KPP to come in and 1 1/2 years into the career do what he does or better- my guess is any names you have on there will be top line players. PATIENCE Please.

Could go on but open it up for many to add or discuss.

[Enrico_Misso]

So we should have rallied around Scott Watters who by now would have won us 4 flags?

[skeptic]

Good post. I do think however that the list needs to be turned over to a degree

When you’ve established that a player is not up to it and won’t be... or that they’re simply done, you need to be savage and keep turning the list over.
Agree that you can’t turn over 14 players at once but in a nutshell

Hannerbery doesn’t play
Geary and Carlisle are ready to retire... Roberton too if he’s still counted in the list
Joyce and Alabakis aren’t up to it and never will be
Kent can’t and shouldn’t get a game
Hunter and Frawley were bad recruits

That’s nine players right there and it’s a start I’m terms of getting rid of what won’t take us forward

Now to be clear...
Dunstan, Lonie, Dmac, Webster, Long, McKernan etc all have fans and detractors. Some of that group should be moved on in a year others might make it still (Webster in particular has pbly cemented himself in the top22 already... Long was there but seems to have fallen)... but all of these guys are at least ready to come in and compete

[older saint]

Good post. I do think however that the list needs to be turned over to a degree

When you’ve established that a player is not up to it and won’t be... or that they’re simply done, you need to be savage and keep turning the list over.
Agree that you can’t turn over 14 players at once but in a nutshell

Hannerbery doesn’t play
Geary and Carlisle are ready to retire... Roberton too if he’s still counted in the list
Joyce and Alabakis aren’t up to it and never will be
Kent can’t and shouldn’t get a game
Hunter and Frawley were bad recruits

That’s nine players right there and it’s a start I’m terms of getting rid of what won’t take us forward

Now to be clear...
Dunstan, Lonie, Dmac, Webster, Long, McKernan etc all have fans and detractors. Some of that group should be moved on in a year others might make it still (Webster in particular has pbly cemented himself in the top22 already... Long was there but seems to have fallen)... but all of these guys are at least ready to come in and compete

Agree re the list and that its a process.

Geary , Robbo - retire
Carlisle - probably gone if back is that bad who knows
Alabakis - replaced with Heath
Joyce - probably another year for depth and not expensive
Frawley may be like Joyce
Hunter - agree

Trade value perhaps - Dunstan, Lonie, Long

Question is is pick 70+ better than say Mckernan or Wood or Dmac for where we are at as a list?

[WellardSaint]

Billings is injured with the plantar fascis, and the coaches are doing what coaches been doing for decades.
Not resting an injured guy, but keep playing him.
Hoping he can make an impact, help win some games, then get surgery in the off-season.
Because nobody in the 2nds is any good, really.

That's just my take.

Savage and Hind were let go due to some ridiculous contracts for DMack and others- stupid.
Paton losing a year, Sav could have replaced him, as well as Hind, who is a HBF with speed.

DMack never showed consistent skill and when I see his name, all I think of is Charlie Cameron wiping the floor with him.

So some of our woes, the fault lies SQUARELY at the feet of the List Managers

[Wayne42]

Getting rid of 14 players in one off season is a lot of players.

At the end of 2020 we offloaded 11 players and according to many our playing list still resembles a spud farm.

Churn doesn't always lead to improvement, especially with the Draft Picks available to the Saints at year's end.

[skeptic]

Getting rid of 14 players in one off season is a lot of players.

At the end of 2020 we offloaded 11 players and according to many our playing list still resembles a spud farm.

Churn doesn't always lead to improvement, especially with the Draft Picks available to the Saints at year's end.

Agreed but there simply is no point in keeping players that can’t and won’t contribute

If they’re not ready to play now and won’t be good enough to play in the future, it’s a waste of time having them on the list.

The sad reality is that we’ve let go of some competitive players ala a Savage or a Hind to keep others that had pointless years on their contract
Both showed more and could have been handier then 6-7 others that stayed

[desertsaint]

good post old fella sainter.
i generally agree with it all. am worried about ratts and the rest of them, but one year past finals is too early to call.
we have been shown not tohave much depth, and given all the players likely to retire or not relisted, why people want to move on decent depth players like lonie, dunstan, dmac and long is a headscratcher. none has any real currency, all can plug a hole when needed and play a role. move them on for youngsters or supposed backup players like mckernan, hunter, and frawley, and our depth thins a heck of a lot more.

[Teflon]

good post old fella sainter.
i generally agree with it all. am worried about ratts and the rest of them, but one year past finals is too early to call.
we have been shown not tohave much depth, and given all the players likely to retire or not relisted, why people want to move on decent depth players like lonie, dunstan, dmac and long is a headscratcher. none has any real currency, all can plug a hole when needed and play a role. move them on for youngsters or supposed backup players like mckernan, hunter, and frawley, and our depth thins a heck of a lot more.

Dunstan has been shown time and again he can not cut it at AFL level ....lower levels less pressure I’m sure he hits targets ....next step up in big moments (2 game turning ones yesterday) he’s not up to it and after years on the list we simply have to make these calls
McKernan and co offered 1 year for a reason and should go at seasons end but we have to turn this list over as our depth is woeful
Hind had what we need we didn’t use him in his preferred spot and decided he wasn’t worth 2 years (Bombers offered) dumb move

[WellardSaint]

Saints took Paul Abbott last yr as a back-up, didn't work out.
What do they do? Get more 'past-it' players McKernan n Paul Hunter.
Both are jokes. They're like the things you find in hard rubbish/verge collections.
What bloody good have they been to us?

[WellardSaint]

Teflon mentioned Dunstan's mistakes
Yes, a lot of Saints make bad errors which cost a goal each time.
Cost us a game sometimes.
But someone like Luke who has been given a chance, needs to grab that chance and make the most of it.

I don't believe any possible excuses such as
'he's had little seniors time to be able to understand the game plan/team rules.'

He's been at the club long enough.
When he gets a senior game, he spits in the faces of those who spruiked him. Batchelor, the Zebs coach saying he's earned a recall.
His first game this yr, kicked out on the full.
At Marvel- billiard table surface.
After having played on old-style muddy VFL grounds, windswept.

He is a liability.
No excuses.

[skeptic]

Far be it from me to act as a Dunstan cheerleader... too slow, poor disposal, doesn’t get enough of the ball.

But...

With roughly 14 players on the list that need to be moved on as their not a part of the future, the reality is you can t slice them all at once.

Luke is at least good enough to compete now

He can get on the park, unlike Hannebery. He offers more than some of the youngsters that are nowhere near ready.

He’s days are marked IMO but he looks to have improved a touch or is at least in good form so he should survive the first wave

[desertsaint]

he was best on ground two weeks ago. middle rank last week. how many of our depth players do that? there's worse to cut, he's certainly not keeping anyone better out. his haters forget the others mistakes - look at the stats and you'll see his disposal is pretty much around the 70% mark every time. he tackles, pressures, never finches the hard ball, and has a disposal rate similar to many hard inside mids. it's just when he gives it up its with a very ugly kick, when others give it up, the kick itself doesn't look as poor, it's where it was kicked to that is the issue. the result is the same either way. Look at sinclair - similar disposal efficiency, but dunstan is delivering from contested possessions far more often, and kicks like a crippled mule. sinclair kicks far more from easy receives, and sinclairs kicks the ball well, just to the wrong place. same outcome. both had four clangers last week. the week before dunstan was the much better player. he aint gonna be an aa mid, but he is decent depth.

[saynta]

he was best on ground two weeks ago. middle rank last week. how many of our depth players do that? there's worse to cut, he's certainly not keeping anyone better out. his haters forget the others mistakes - look at the stats and you'll see his disposal is pretty much around the 70% mark every time. he tackles, pressures, never finches the hard ball, and has a disposal rate similar to many hard inside mids. it's just when he gives it up its with a very ugly kick, when others give it up, the kick itself doesn't look as poor, it's where it was kicked to that is the issue. the result is the same either way. Look at sinclair - similar disposal efficiency, but dunstan is delivering from contested possessions far more often, and kicks like a crippled mule. sinclair kicks far more from easy receives, and sinclairs kicks the ball well, just to the wrong place. same outcome. both had four clangers last week. the week before dunstan was the much better player. he aint gonna be an aa mid, but he is decent depth.

Plus 1

[saynta]

Pick 7? Geez you guys are optimists. More like pick 5 or 6...4 even.

[Teflon]

Teflon mentioned Dunstan's mistakes
Yes, a lot of Saints make bad errors which cost a goal each time.
Cost us a game sometimes.
But someone like Luke who has been given a chance, needs to grab that chance and make the most of it.

I don't believe any possible excuses such as
'he's had little seniors time to be able to understand the game plan/team rules.'

He's been at the club long enough.
When he gets a senior game, he spits in the faces of those who spruiked him. Batchelor, the Zebs coach saying he's earned a recall.
His first game this yr, kicked out on the full.
At Marvel- billiard table surface.
After having played on old-style muddy VFL grounds, windswept.

He is a liability.
No excuses.

Read something on Bigfooty I agree with
I think all players make mistakes - Sinclair, a good and creative user, turned it over cost us a goal
But ...it does appear at times Dunstan tries to take the kick that’s beyond his skill level. He’s not a good kick he needs to keep it simple. Jack Steele not a prolific kick ....always takes the less sexy option but gets it done....Dunstan should take note
In saying that ...he’s had chances now ...would you trust him with ball in hand , 15 seconds left going into forward 50 to hit a team mate lace out in a final ???????

[WellardSaint]

Nope wouldn't trust him to make a toasted cheesd sandwich

[skeptic]

Teflon mentioned Dunstan's mistakes
Yes, a lot of Saints make bad errors which cost a goal each time.
Cost us a game sometimes.
But someone like Luke who has been given a chance, needs to grab that chance and make the most of it.

I don't believe any possible excuses such as
'he's had little seniors time to be able to understand the game plan/team rules.'

He's been at the club long enough.
When he gets a senior game, he spits in the faces of those who spruiked him. Batchelor, the Zebs coach saying he's earned a recall.
His first game this yr, kicked out on the full.
At Marvel- billiard table surface.
After having played on old-style muddy VFL grounds, windswept.

He is a liability.
No excuses.

Read something on Bigfooty I agree with
I think all players make mistakes - Sinclair, a good and creative user, turned it over cost us a goal
But ...it does appear at times Dunstan tries to take the kick that’s beyond his skill level. He’s not a good kick he needs to keep it simple. Jack Steele not a prolific kick ....always takes the less sexy option but gets it done....Dunstan should take note
In saying that ...he’s had chances now ...would you trust him with ball in hand , 15 seconds left going into forward 50 to hit a team mate lace out in a final ???????

Tim Membrey has beaten his man and is streaming forward free 40m out directly in front.

The kick goes 3m over his head, to the only defender by himself 30m clear from anyone, who almost drops a simple chest mark because he’s so surprised the ball came any where near him

[Wayne42]

A couple of Dunstan's kicks against the Swans were outright shanks, so bad i thought his foot must have fallen off his leg as he kicked.

Or he'd been given a jab and had no feeling.

[Scollop]

It seems to me that the coaches and the COO (Lethlean) believe ok to miss your targets if you’re a forward

Let’s assume that Dunny hits his targets ...only to see the forwards miss continuously.

How does the selection committee think it’s ok to have players in the team who can’t finish the work of the mids?

Check out the coaches association votes when Max King was shanking his set shots from 30m out.

The coach will still reward you with his votes. It’s a fact.

He did it again with top votes to Jack Higgins

[Wayne42]

It seems to me that the coaches and the COO (Lethlean) believe ok to miss your targets if you’re a forward

Let’s assume that Dunny hits his targets ...only to see the forwards miss continuously.

How does the selection committee think it’s ok to have players in the team who can’t finish the work of the mids?

Check out the coaches association votes when Max King was shanking his set shots from 30m out.

The coach will still reward you with his votes. It’s a fact.

He did it again with top votes to Jack Higgins

it's the Comedy Club