Saintsational v St Kilda (Best and Fairest)

[Sainter_Dad]

The top 10 ended up as follows
1/ Jack Steele = B&F for 2021
2/Jack Sinclair
3/ Tim Membrey
4/Callum Wilkie
5/ Brad Crouch
5/ Brad Hill (tie for 5th)
7/ Seb Ross
8/ Dougal Howard
9/ Jimmy Webster
10/ Max King

For a guy who does not like the spot light - Steele showed why he is Captain Jack - he was actually tearing up in his acceptance of the award and the willing of his club mates to get US the second (and more) premiership - If Captain Jack is at the helm - our St Kilda Ship is heading in the right direction.

PS - 79 votes 1st to 2nd - more that 1/2 of the total votes of 2nd as a differential is pretty emphatic. [But then again he was almost 3 times the 2nd place getter in our little voting tally]

[And the emotion was genuine - he did not show it for the Dare Sainter of the Year or the Lenny Hayes Award - this one was the Goal]

[Wayne42]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/1017411/ ... ker-awards

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Hill and Ross very lucky. King could have been higher but I guess at least he cracked the Top Ten, unlike his brother.

[Banger9798]

Hill and Ross very lucky. King could have been higher but I guess at least he cracked the Top Ten, unlike his brother.

Ben would've poled top 8

[Beno88]

Hill and Ross very lucky. King could have been higher but I guess at least he cracked the Top Ten, unlike his brother.

Ben would've poled top 8

Except that he didn’t.

[SuperDuper]

anyone able to fill out the top 20?
Billings etc?

[The_Dud]

What is the voting system used? I think altogether those 10 missed a total of only 10 or 11 games, so just getting on the park each week seems like an overly influential factor.

[Sainter_Dad]

It used to be that if you were on the park you got a mark out of X for fulfilling your 'role' - so Dud is correct - play 22 'average' games and get average marks - and that equates to 10 'excellent games'

This is why consistent 'Journeymen' polled well in the TBA

[st.byron]

Hill and Ross very lucky. King could have been higher but I guess at least he cracked the Top Ten, unlike his brother.

Bit harsh I reckon. I'm not a great fan of Seb Ross but clearly the coaching staff see lots more that I don't from my armchair. Good on him. On that basis I imagine they'll be fairly keen to retain his services.
Anyone know what contract offer he has from the club?

[B.M]

It’s called playing your role. Seb was good in most games on the wing.

Plus fans don’t appreciate defensive work done by players.

Perhaps he beat his direct opponents?!

Do people take notice of who he played on?

[bangaulegend]

Crouch will be top 4 so

Steele
Sinclair
Wilkie
Crouch
Webster
Howard
Membrey
King
Hill
Ross

Jones and Billings didn't play enough games

Not a bad effort to pick all ten

[saynta]

I always knew that Ross would be in the top ten. Guess I am one of the only ones that picked that.

At least the club appreciates Seb.

[saynta]

Hill and Ross very lucky. King could have been higher but I guess at least he cracked the Top Ten, unlike his brother.

Bit harsh I reckon. I'm not a great fan of Seb Ross but clearly the coaching staff see lots more that I don't from my armchair. Good on him. On that basis I imagine they'll be fairly keen to retain his services.
Anyone know what contract offer he has from the club?

Two years with an option for a third.

Club is not blinded by negative thoughts and presumably judge players and award votes for following their role, their performance and their effort.

From saints.com.au

"For Sinclair, tonight’s second-placed finish marks his first time inside the top-10 of a Trevor Barker Award, while two-time Best & Fairest and new Life Member Ross registered his sixth consecutive year inside the top-10. Wilkie also charted his third straight top-10 placing since joining the club as a rookie in 2019."

[The_Dud]

Comparing to the coaches votes is interesting. I think they represent much more who made an impact and won games as opposed to who managed to just not get injured. Also it’s scary seeing that Steele basically scored the same amount as the rest of the players combined

Top 10 coaches votes:
Steele
Dunstan
Crouch
Membrey
= Sinclair
= King
Higgins
= Billings
= Hill
Jones
Ryder (11th but thought he deserved a mention)

[Sainter_Dad]

Comparing to the coaches votes is interesting. I think they represent much more who made an impact and won games as opposed to who managed to just not get injured. Also it’s scary seeing that Steele basically scored the same amount as the rest of the players combined

Top 10 coaches votes:
Steele
Dunstan
Crouch
Membrey
= Sinclair
= King
Higgins
= Billings
= Hill
Jones
Ryder (11th but thought he deserved a mention)

LOL @ The Trevor Barker Award - I love that Steele won - but I hate that it awards mediocrity:

If it is the same voting as was historical:

Five coaches (Senior Coach plus 4x Assistant Coaches) will vote in each match.
Not all players need to be given a vote
A poor result may see only 3-4 players receive votes, a strong result might see 15-16 players
Coaches to vote confidentially, ie. not confer with each other
Each player can receive votes as follows:
- 1 vote: played role effectively (but should not be used as an encouragement reward)
- 2 votes: among the best for St Kilda in this game
- 3 votes: one, two or very occasionally, three players who are deemed the very best on ground
- 4 votes: an exceptionally outstanding game, very rarely given (say 10+ goals, or 45+ possessions)

So - If a player plays 22 games and 'played his role effectively' the base he should get is 5 x 1 x 22 = 110

So - if you got less than 110 and played 22 games you should look at yourself.

Position	Player	Votes	Games	Average
1	Jack Steele	234	22	2.1
2	Jack Sinclair	155	21	1.5
3	Tim Membrey	136	21	1.3
4	Callum Wilkie	124	22	1.1
5	Brad Crouch	120	20	1.2
5	Bradley Hill	120	22	1.1
7	Seb Ross	117	20	1.2
8	Dougal Howard	112	21	1.1
9	Jimmy Webster	105	20	1.1
10	Max King	101	20	1

So mostly our top 10 [with the exception of Captain Jack] 'Played their role effectively'

[B.M]

Interesting to note

Since 2016 Seb Ross has finished

6th
1st
2nd
1st
10th
7th

In the TBA (not bad for a fringe/depth player?!)

In the Eastern in that time
2nd
1st
2nd
5th
Outside top ten
Outside top ten

Looks like he started as a young up and comer that the fans liked, and around 2019 lost popularity and by 2020 had gone to full blown whipping boy!!!

[kosifantutti]

Ross has missed six games in six years. The two seasons where he missed the most, he finished 7th and 10th in the TBA. It’s an award for consistency.

[Sainter_Dad]

Ross has missed six games in six years. The two seasons where he missed the most, he finished 7th and 10th in the TBA. It’s an award for consistency.

Absolutely - Ross is the epitome of 'Do you job' and good on him for that - but I would rather see 150's (see Sinclair) in the top 10 of the TBA

[B.M]

If someone does their job - consistently

Isnt that called

Being a good player?!

[Sainter_Dad]

If someone does their job - consistently

Isnt that called

Being a good player?!

Okay B.M

Do you think we have more chance of holding the cup aloft with 22 "Good" players

Or with 22 players attaining Steele and Sinclair level of intent / delivery and commitment week in / week out??

[And 165 only requires - a player to perform their role and every second week to be among the best for St Kilda in this game]

If I do my job - Mon - Fri - I am a good employee - if someone rings me on a Saturday and I do not take the call - technically - I am still a Good employee as I have done my job - however - I hold myself to a higher standard.

If you think 'Good' will cut it - then I would say you are happy with Mediocrity

At this point - I do not want to accept Good - I want to get onboard the Steele Train.

[The_Dud]

The B&F is the perfect award that rewards players giving 6/10 for 22 weeks.

Compare it to the coaches votes, Saintsational award, Brownlow votes, all which give a better representation of players who made an impact an won games.

[B.M]

You have 22 good players

Who all finish top 10 in the B&F

Then you’d be a good team

Unfortunately only 10 players get into the top 10

Then you have 11-22 - who a lot of the time don’t get it done

That’s why you lose games

[B.M]

So we are saying B&Fs are worthless now?!

Is that’s because it doesn’t support your opinions

I’d say coaches voting on how players are performing every week is the BEST indicator of quality of actual performance.

What players and coaches really respect are players who, when they run down the race, you know what you’re gonna get!!!

Players like Gary Rowan who play one good game per month and three s*** ones are reasons teams lose games… passengers

Players like Jimmy Webster who, when they play ALWAYS give a gut busting 100% committed effort… they are players who win you games

[The_Dud]

So we are saying B&Fs are worthless now?!

Is that’s because it doesn’t support your opinions

I’d say coaches voting on how players are performing every week is the BEST indicator of quality of actual performance.

What players and coaches really respect are players who, when they run down the race, you know what you’re gonna get!!!

Players like Gary Rowan who play one good game per month and three s*** ones are reasons teams lose games… passengers

Players like Jimmy Webster who, when they play ALWAYS give a gut busting 100% committed effort… they are players who win you games

Like I said earlier, it overemphasises not missing games, as no player in the top 10 played less than 20 games.

So if that’s the award you want to look to, great, but it’s not an accurate representation of who made the biggest impact.

[Sainter_Dad]

So we are saying B&Fs are worthless now?!

Is that’s because it doesn’t support your opinions

I’d say coaches voting on how players are performing every week is the BEST indicator of quality of actual performance.

What players and coaches really respect are players who, when they run down the race, you know what you’re gonna get!!!

Players like Gary Rowan who play one good game per month and three s*** ones are reasons teams lose games… passengers

Players like Jimmy Webster who, when they play ALWAYS give a gut busting 100% committed effort… they are players who win you games

Like I said earlier, it overemphasises not missing games, as no player in the top 10 played less than 20 games.

So if that’s the award you want to look to, great, but it’s not an accurate representation of who made the biggest impact.

To a certain extent - if you play 22 games - well done - you have done what you set out to - be a good player and do it consistently. I am not demeaning that - what I do not like is that the majority of our top ten only achieved an average of 'did what you were asked'.

In an award that is offering (albeit unattainable) 440 points FOR EVERY PLAYER it seems disappointing that only 2 achieved 150+ or just over 1/3 of the votes on offer.

I would rather that top ten of the award are players that have achieved better than 'did your job'. I feel that too often this is the accepted standard at St Kilda - 'Oh well - you tried.' F@rk that - I want 'Well done - you busted your guts.'

As I said earlier - I am not demeaning anyone - as they have more skill in their little finger than me - but seriously please don't accept mediocrity - it may have flown in the 80's - I want us to be an uncompromising battalion - led by Captain Steele.

It is easy - award 3,5,7 whatever votes per game - but not 88 - if you are best on - be best on - if not - Thank you for doing the job you are paid for.

I want 22 Steeles playing for St Kilda - 22 players who hurt like my Avatar after a loss - 22 players who want to pick up the team and the supporters and carry us all to the promised land!!!!

I am over waiting