Poor tactics

[terry smith rules]

2 weeks ago

Hill was almost in the team of the week off half back and Long praised by the coach for his efforts up forward

So where do they start tonight, exact opposite

Long on Rich for mine would have been a great match up

No work was put into McGluggage, he plays the Gabba beautifully , who would have known that going in

Adams was having a shocker early, we should have been going to his opponent at every opportunity, instead ….. well…

[Wayne42]

2 weeks ago

Hill was almost in the team of the week off half back and Long praised by the coach for his efforts up forward

So where do they start tonight, exact opposite

Long on Rich for mine would have been a great match up

No work was put into McGluggage, he plays the Gabba beautifully , who would have known that going in

Adams was having a shocker early, we should have been going to his opponent at every opportunity, instead ….. well…

Is that Ratten or Rath's doing ?

[terry smith rules]

2 weeks ago

Hill was almost in the team of the week off half back and Long praised by the coach for his efforts up forward

So where do they start tonight, exact opposite

Long on Rich for mine would have been a great match up

No work was put into McGluggage, he plays the Gabba beautifully , who would have known that going in

Adams was having a shocker early, we should have been going to his opponent at every opportunity, instead ….. well…

Is that Ratten or Rath's doing ?

I don’t know,but hopefully someone asks the ? At the presser

[shanegrambeau]

Wayne Carey, at the end of the second quarter, said that Brisbane had devoted a lot of resources into shutting down Brad Hill. The low scoring that resulted was part of their defensive plan. Of course our peanut supporters went straight for Brad Hill and blamed him for the loss as usual, forgetting that he has helped set up our season.

Once we lost Macca and to an extent Otta, it was gonna be a tough one.

[Wayne42]

Wayne Carey, at the end of the second quarter, said that Brisbane had devoted a lot of resources into shutting down Brad Hill. The low scoring that resulted was part of their defensive plan. Of course our peanut supporters went straight for Brad Hill and blamed him for the loss as usual, forgetting that he has helped set up our season.

Once we lost Macca and to an extent Otta, it was gonna be a tough one.

Stop talking sense after a loss.

[skeptic]

2 weeks ago

Hill was almost in the team of the week off half back and Long praised by the coach for his efforts up forward

So where do they start tonight, exact opposite

Long on Rich for mine would have been a great match up

No work was put into McGluggage, he plays the Gabba beautifully , who would have known that going in

Adams was having a shocker early, we should have been going to his opponent at every opportunity, instead ….. well…

I’ve posted this before... don’t mind having a punt on Saints games. A trend I’ve noticed is that opposition mids always get big numbers against us.

Went 30 for Neale and McCluggage... 25 for Lyons (who was really really attractive at that price as he’s been down) and over 20 for Rich.

Throw in a few other regular occurrences... and a slight risk or two that delivers more often then not... and the sting of the night is gone.

[whiskers3614]

Wayne Carey, at the end of the second quarter, said that Brisbane had devoted a lot of resources into shutting down Brad Hill. The low scoring that resulted was part of their defensive plan. Of course our peanut supporters went straight for Brad Hill and blamed him for the loss as usual, forgetting that he has helped set up our season.

Once we lost Macca and to an extent Otta, it was gonna be a tough one.

So it was the terrible supporters who caused Hill to avoid several contests?

[skeptic]

Hill was badly beaten but it was apparent that they really put work into shutting him down. Unfortunately it looks as though he lost confidence as the match progressed.

Like many, I think there was a some positional changes post last week that messed the structure badly. Hill was one that was effected as was Long. He’s still in the 22 for mine

[Impatient Sainter]

Ratten and his coaches were like rabbits in a spot light last night, they affected nothing and were terrible. For gods sake Ratts get Rath the f..k out of the coaching box. The guy is a sport analysts he has no back ground in coaching.

Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games???

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night?

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.

Then to mention King being triple teamed all night. I can understand we needed extra numbers behind the ball, but if you had made some changes ealier you wouldnt have that problem? Another very poor night by our coaches - similarly to our game against Melbourne shocking.

[Wayne42]

I think Rath is Lethlean's man, i doubt Ratts could remove him from the coaches box without Simon's blessing.

If Ratts thought it was a problem he could request changes to his coaches box during his current contract extension negortiations.

[Leo.J]

While the buck always stops with Head Coach, there’s a couple of questions that need answering before imo you can question someones ability to coach and their game plan.

Firstly, which is usually the hardest question to answer, do we currently have the cattle to contend against a side like Brisbane?

Second, did we lose because the gameplan failed? Or because the players couldn’t execute due to the op or didn’t follow or execute it because they aren’t good enough under heat? Or would we have a different result if we didn’t lose the personnel we did in game?

Not sure any of those questions can be answered by anyone on this forum with any confidence. I’m not saying don’t have an opinion on these matters, but maybe just remember it’s an opinion, and generally an emotional and largely somewhat uninformed one.

Unless you know the actual messaging coming from the coaches we don’t know whether it’s been executed, we assume not because we lost. But maybe they didn’t do much of what they were asked.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think you can blame Ratts for the many poor decisions made by players, the skill errors made, and the fact that something as simple as Roma and King failing to go back far enough behind the mark with 2 very gettable shots on goal. There’s a lot that goes on in a game that effects the out come that the coach can not control on the night.

Despite all that he will and needs to take responsibility for all of it….who’d want to be a coach?

[SaintPav]

Notwithstanding Brisbane’s missed shots, I thought defence held up fairly well.

The forward structure was horrid and we were undermanned in the midfield.

There was no disgrace in that effort.

Hopefully we can swap like for like next game and injuries won’t impact us too much.

[Crossy66]

Ratten and his coaches were like rabbits in a spot light last night, they affected nothing and were terrible. For gods sake Ratts get Rath the f..k out of the coaching box. The guy is a sport analysts he has no back ground in coaching.

Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games???

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night?

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.

Then to mention King being triple teamed all night. I can understand we needed extra numbers behind the ball, but if you had made some changes ealier you wouldnt have that problem? Another very poor night by our coaches - similarly to our game against Melbourne shocking.

What decisions from Rath specifically, did you take issue with?

[Sanctorum]

Having watched the game at the Gabba last night and the full replay on Foxtel today I believe poor tactics from the coaching box was not the major factor in the disappointing loss. A far bigger problem faced by St Kilda was the imbalance of talent between the two teams on the field.

Brisbane Lions went into this game with 5 past All Australians, including a Brownlow Medallist, plus 3 others that have previously been nominated in the top 40: Neale, Rich, Cameron, Daniher, Andrews; and Lyons, Zorko and McCluggage. In contrast St Kilda had just 1 AA (Paddy Ryder) and 1 nominee (Seb Ross).

The Lions superior player quality was manifest in the way that they transitioned the ball, far more slick, breathless speed, they were clearly by far the better team on the night. If they had been even a little more accurate in front of goals the result would have been a thrashing - that said, we have to give tremendous credit to the Saints backline because they stood up magnificently, as they've done all year.

Tactics wise I was disappointed that Jack Sinclair didn't rotate through the midfield at any stage because at the stoppages the Lions star-studded midfield simply roved to Paddy's tapouts - despite winning the hit-outs 31-23, St Kilda lost the overall clearances 68-50, which is a big difference and demonstrated that the Saints badly need to improve their mids, either home grown (think Windhager, Owens, NWM) and/or go to the market for another gun.

I was also very disappointed that the coaches failed to move the underperforming Bradley Hill into a different role, there were quite a few times when he seemed to be out on his own in space just marking time, not at all at the centre of the action.

The final conclusion that I came to during the game is that our superstar FF Max King appears to be suffering a severe bout of the dreaded yips when taking set shots - yes, he kicked a couple but also sprayed a few and his body language betrayed a considerable level of anxiety when he sets up to take the kick.

In yesterday's paper Cam Mooney told the story of how severely he suffered from this condition, it brought him to tears and it got as bad as wishing he didn't take a mark in front of goals - he still blames himself for Geelong not winning the 2008 GF....what this suggests to me is that the club needs to appoint someone like King's schoolboy kicking coach Matthew Lloyd to become a mentor for Max because whether you like Lloyd or not, he was always a very composed and accurate kick for goal and it would be great to see Max achieve that standard - he's an absolute match winner, so that's a really crucial decision for the club to make, immediately.

[shanegrambeau]

Having watched the game at the Gabba last night and the full replay on Foxtel today I believe poor tactics from the coaching box was not the major factor in the disappointing loss. A far bigger problem faced by St Kilda was the imbalance of talent between the two teams on the field.

Brisbane Lions went into this game with 5 past All Australians, including a Brownlow Medallist, plus 3 others that have previously been nominated in the top 40: Neale, Rich, Cameron, Daniher, Andrews; and Lyons, Zorko and McCluggage. In contrast St Kilda had just 1 AA (Paddy Ryder) and 1 nominee (Seb Ross).

The Lions superior player quality was manifest in the way that they transitioned the ball, far more slick, breathless speed, they were clearly by far the better team on the night. If they had been even a little more accurate in front of goals the result would have been a thrashing - that said, we have to give tremendous credit to the Saints backline because they stood up magnificently, as they've done all year.

Tactics wise I was disappointed that Jack Sinclair didn't rotate through the midfield at any stage because at the stoppages the Lions star-studded midfield simply roved to Paddy's tapouts - despite winning the hit-outs 31-23, St Kilda lost the overall clearances 68-50, which is a big difference and demonstrated that the Saints badly need to improve their mids, either home grown (think Windhager, Owens, NWM) and/or go to the market for another gun.

I was also very disappointed that the coaches failed to move the underperforming Bradley Hill into a different role, there were quite a few times when he seemed to be out on his own in space just marking time, not at all at the centre of the action.

The final conclusion that I came to during the game is that our superstar FF Max King appears to be suffering a severe bout of the dreaded yips when taking set shots - yes, he kicked a couple but also sprayed a few and his body language betrayed a considerable level of anxiety when he sets up to take the kick.

In yesterday's paper Cam Mooney told the story of how severely he suffered from this condition, it brought him to tears and it got as bad as wishing he didn't take a mark in front of goals - he still blames himself for Geelong not winning the 2008 GF....what this suggests to me is that the club needs to appoint someone like King's schoolboy kicking coach Matthew Lloyd to become a mentor for Max because whether you like Lloyd or not, he was always a very composed and accurate kick for goal and it would be great to see Max achieve that standard - he's an absolute match winner, so that's a really crucial decision for the club to make, immediately.

I was wondering about this this afternoon.
Tactics
But also selection
Kane Cornes said St Kilda were far to King conscious.
I think Sharman should have played too. (Or perhaps Wood up forward in a pinch) We need an alternative to take the pressure off King and Membrey doesn't seem to be a stay at home type.
as for Hill in open space - yes, perhaps that was deliberate? Ratts and co. knew the effort Brissy were putting into shutting him down, so they parked him out there? Seems crazy doesn't it cos he's a play maker. Whatever, it didn't work!

For nezt week, we might finally see B1 or B2 getting played. Maybe Bytel gets the nod? And NWM back please.

[Teflon]

I agree the sheer talent difference between lists stood out
It will against Dees too
Reality is we carry quite a few other club rejects and money ball types - good battlers who have good days but up against quality under real pressure they do get found out
Only thing to do is continue to improve this list which means we may have to let go of 1 or two favourites to move forwards eg is Membrey better now as a Max foil? Or just really keeping Sharman out ?
Playing Wood, Jones, Butler , Lienert , Long all serviceable players some great on their day but all horrible re consistent performances
We have to look at the bottom 10-15% of this list and trade/push them out through development
That’s Windy NWM Owens but also Connolly (can kick) and we can’t take 20 years to find out if Allison is a footballer or not

[Impatient Sainter]

Ratten and his coaches were like rabbits in a spot light last night, they affected nothing and were terrible. For gods sake Ratts get Rath the f..k out of the coaching box. The guy is a sport analysts he has no back ground in coaching.

Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games???

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night?

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.

Then to mention King being triple teamed all night. I can understand we needed extra numbers behind the ball, but if you had made some changes ealier you wouldnt have that problem? Another very poor night by our coaches - similarly to our game against Melbourne shocking.

What decisions from Rath specifically, did you take issue with?

I cant answer that but Tony74 says he has too much influence on things, and when you see TV crosses to Ratts in the box he is seated next to Rath who seems to be having input. He might be a great analyst and construct game plans, but match day coaching is about having a feel for the game and he is no way qualified for that role or to be giving advice to our coach during the game.

[bigcarl]

It’s almost as if we conceded this game.

Team selection for a start. Billings, Wanganeen-Milera, Clark. All available, all best 22 IMO, all not selected.

And I do understand that Billings and Clark probably needed to find some touch before returning and that it is hard to change a winning team. I get the reasoning.

But we were sure to face a massive test against a top-4 side on the rebound on its own patch.

Probably not a lot of damage done, apart from the unfortunate injuries.

We get another game into kids like Owens and Windhager and get to see what we are up against if we want to be contenders.

Over-reliance on Max King to kick us a winning score is one of the concerns raised … again. Need other strong aerial targets presenting. Also, we are a bit light on for in-and-unders without Steele. Owens is a third-gamer, Windhager just a kid, Bytel injured. It puts a fair bit of pressure on Crouch.

[Wayne42]

Having watched the game at the Gabba last night and the full replay on Foxtel today I believe poor tactics from the coaching box was not the major factor in the disappointing loss. A far bigger problem faced by St Kilda was the imbalance of talent between the two teams on the field.

Brisbane Lions went into this game with 5 past All Australians, including a Brownlow Medallist, plus 3 others that have previously been nominated in the top 40: Neale, Rich, Cameron, Daniher, Andrews; and Lyons, Zorko and McCluggage. In contrast St Kilda had just 1 AA (Paddy Ryder) and 1 nominee (Seb Ross).

The Lions superior player quality was manifest in the way that they transitioned the ball, far more slick, breathless speed, they were clearly by far the better team on the night. If they had been even a little more accurate in front of goals the result would have been a thrashing - that said, we have to give tremendous credit to the Saints backline because they stood up magnificently, as they've done all year.

Tactics wise I was disappointed that Jack Sinclair didn't rotate through the midfield at any stage because at the stoppages the Lions star-studded midfield simply roved to Paddy's tapouts - despite winning the hit-outs 31-23, St Kilda lost the overall clearances 68-50, which is a big difference and demonstrated that the Saints badly need to improve their mids, either home grown (think Windhager, Owens, NWM) and/or go to the market for another gun.

I was also very disappointed that the coaches failed to move the underperforming Bradley Hill into a different role, there were quite a few times when he seemed to be out on his own in space just marking time, not at all at the centre of the action.

The final conclusion that I came to during the game is that our superstar FF Max King appears to be suffering a severe bout of the dreaded yips when taking set shots - yes, he kicked a couple but also sprayed a few and his body language betrayed a considerable level of anxiety when he sets up to take the kick.

In yesterday's paper Cam Mooney told the story of how severely he suffered from this condition, it brought him to tears and it got as bad as wishing he didn't take a mark in front of goals - he still blames himself for Geelong not winning the 2008 GF....what this suggests to me is that the club needs to appoint someone like King's schoolboy kicking coach Matthew Lloyd to become a mentor for Max because whether you like Lloyd or not, he was always a very composed and accurate kick for goal and it would be great to see Max achieve that standard - he's an absolute match winner, so that's a really crucial decision for the club to make, immediately.

I'm glad you pointed out the talent difference between the Lions and the Saints, it's the reason why i think more players will get delisted at years end than what why we might have thought.

I doubt the club will get Lloyd to mentor or coach King, Lethlean believes we have the personnel in house to help Max.
What we really need is a 2nd AFL quality Key Forward to take the heat off Max.

Joe Daniher has had numerous kicking coaches, including Lloyd, and he still sprays it wider than a sprinkler.

[Teflon]

Interesting take from some BF posters a the gane …while we talking tactics…

***********

Well Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games.

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night.

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.
So well said-i was there-Lions were well coached and drilled it was the lack of players at the fall of the ball that was astounding and as you said was not addressed all night-and our forward craft -well just non -existant -i would have put Long on Rich he is their general and his kicking sets up a lot of their plays

[WellardSaint]

The following guys need to show much more, going forward.
Or they're delisted at year's end.
Wood
Jones
Lienert
Butler
Long

Throw in some more names if ypu feel like it.

[loris]

Interesting take from some BF posters a the gane …while we talking tactics…

***********

Well Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games.

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night.

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.
So well said-i was there-Lions were well coached and drilled it was the lack of players at the fall of the ball that was astounding and as you said was not addressed all night-and our forward craft -well just non -existant -i would have put Long on Rich he is their general and his kicking sets up a lot of their plays

I think if you read an earlier post in this thread Teflon ALL these points (exact same words) are made by Saintsational’s Impatient Sainter.
Now I don’t read BF, so I don’t know if Impatient Sainter posts there under various identities and has posted these exact same points under a few identities, for you to say these are from SOME BF posterS at the game. Or, maybe Impatient Sainter pinched these points from various BF posters and bundled them together earlier in this thread. Somehow I don’t think so, as the points you have put up are the style of writing Impatient Sainter always uses in his posts on SS. So credit where it’s due, I think these are Impatient Sainter’s opinions, not ‘some’ BF posters

[B.M]

I think the poor tactics centre around the use of King and how we set up in the centre square

[meher baba]

Our tactics can’t have been too bad: we were 12 points up at half time, even though several guys were suffering from the flu. Then we lost three players through injury. Yet we were still in the game into the fourth quarter.

As I posted on another thread, I thought we played quite a bit better than we did against the Crows and Roos. Against Brisbane at home of course Hill and Sinclair aren’t going to be allowed as much freedom as they get playing weaker sides: that’s not a tactical problem, that’s just what happens when you play better sides.

And of course some marginal players are going to be found wanting under extreme pressure, and we saw that with Wood and Windhager. Hopefully Ratten has learnt something from that: he could be accused of being overly inclined to stick with his favourites.

I don’t think there is too much wrong ATM beyond the absence of Steele. We showed that, if we had had a slightly stronger lineup (eg with Steele plus an in-form Billings and a fully fit Clark) we would most likely have beaten the second best team in the comp on their home ground. I don’t think we’re good enough yet to win the comp, but we aren’t miles away either.

Ratts is a good coach IMO.

[spert]

I think the poor tactics centre around the use of King and how we set up in the centre square

Spot on