Poor tactics

[Teflon]

Interesting take from some BF posters a the gane …while we talking tactics…

***********

Well Ratt's you failed another test against a top 4 side! There are more questions than answers about your ability to produce in big games.

Brisbane picked apart our zone using 15-20 metre kicks, which we just sat off and watched as they worked their way into the F50? We did nothing and they rolled it out all night?

We were screaming for more run/preasure through the midfield the entire game and you failed to identify that or do anything about it?

Brisbane put McCluggage into the centre and you didnt have an answer? Then you failed to sit on either Neale and McCluggage?

Sinclair was having a stinker across HB, surely you throw him on the ball? Butler won a heap of clearances in the VFL the week before again not used through the midfield or wing?

Our wingman Wood and McKenzie had down nights and again you did nothing?

Long was shaky down back all night and you left him there until the final 1/4?

Hill was an embarrassment and again failed to fire a shot against stronger opposition - what will you do about him? My tip is nothing because you dont have the fortitude to drop a 900k per year player.

Most park footballers could see most marking contests were spoiled/spiked forward of the contest. Why wasnt there a small desiganted as the front and centre. Neale & Zorko sat there unopposed all night.

It is one thing to be playing with a hard nose, but to give away the stupid free kids in front of goal was inexcusable.

The one positive was how well our defence stood up to the continued onslaught.
So well said-i was there-Lions were well coached and drilled it was the lack of players at the fall of the ball that was astounding and as you said was not addressed all night-and our forward craft -well just non -existant -i would have put Long on Rich he is their general and his kicking sets up a lot of their plays

I think if you read an earlier post in this thread Teflon ALL these points (exact same words) are made by Saintsational’s Impatient Sainter.
Now I don’t read BF, so I don’t know if Impatient Sainter posts there under various identities and has posted these exact same points under a few identities, for you to say these are from SOME BF posterS at the game. Or, maybe Impatient Sainter pinched these points from various BF posters and bundled them together earlier in this thread. Somehow I don’t think so, as the points you have put up are the style of writing Impatient Sainter always uses in his posts on SS. So credit where it’s due, I think these are Impatient Sainter’s opinions, not ‘some’ BF posters

Thanks Loris I’m more interested in the message than the poster glory I do read BF some great insights there btw

[Teflon]

Our tactics can’t have been too bad: we were 12 points up at half time, even though several guys were suffering from the flu. Then we lost three players through injury. Yet we were still in the game into the fourth quarter.

As I posted on another thread, I thought we played quite a bit better than we did against the Crows and Roos. Against Brisbane at home of course Hill and Sinclair aren’t going to be allowed as much freedom as they get playing weaker sides: that’s not a tactical problem, that’s just what happens when you play better sides.

And of course some marginal players are going to be found wanting under extreme pressure, and we saw that with Wood and Windhager. Hopefully Ratten has learnt something from that: he could be accused of being overly inclined to stick with his favourites.

I don’t think there is too much wrong ATM beyond the absence of Steele. We showed that, if we had had a slightly stronger lineup (eg with Steele plus an in-form Billings and a fully fit Clark) we would most likely have beaten the second best team in the comp on their home ground. I don’t think we’re good enough yet to win the comp, but we aren’t miles away either.

Ratts is a good coach IMO.

Head in sand
Look at inside 50s they kick straight we aren’t in it ffs stop banging on with “yeah but we were 12 points up” it papers over underlying issues
Why the hell can’t Max King and our forwards lead abd get some separation from opponents??is it laziness?? As Adam Coony noted we were just stagnant up forward wrestling!!
His point that we webt “safe” with ball movement after half time was also relevant
Anyway as others have noted we clearly lack their class and Steele isn’t going to bridge that gap alone
I would not be signing Ratten just yet - we could still miss finals or get belted week 1 against better quality opponents and I’m not sure that’s us moving forward

[Sanctorum]

I think if you read an earlier post in this thread Teflon ALL these points (exact same words) are made by Saintsational’s Impatient Sainter.
Now I don’t read BF, so I don’t know if Impatient Sainter posts there under various identities and has posted these exact same points under a few identities, for you to say these are from SOME BF posterS at the game. Or, maybe Impatient Sainter pinched these points from various BF posters and bundled them together earlier in this thread. Somehow I don’t think so, as the points you have put up are the style of writing Impatient Sainter always uses in his posts on SS. So credit where it’s due, I think these are Impatient Sainter’s opinions, not ‘some’ BF posters

Irrespective of who made these comments, it is hard not to agree with most of the critique. The coaches/selectors need to take their share of responsibility for the things that went wrong on Saturday night. By dropping Sharman as a second tall forward in lieu of the shorter Higgins/Butler option they allowed Lions defenders to double/triple tag Max King as the ball was bombed into the forward arc, which occurred far too often and negated the good work of the mids when driving the ball forward.

Overall, this performance is yet another validation for my contention that the club should take a lot more time to decide on extending Ratten's contract beyond 2022. I repeat that I'm not anti Ratts and believe he has done an adequate job this year, but we need much more than that in the upcoming games - the Bombers next Friday night are low hanging fruit and nothing short of a massive Saints harvest will suffice!

[shanegrambeau]

Our tactics can’t have been too bad: we were 12 points up at half time, even though several guys were suffering from the flu. Then we lost three players through injury. Yet we were still in the game into the fourth quarter.

As I posted on another thread, I thought we played quite a bit better than we did against the Crows and Roos. Against Brisbane at home of course Hill and Sinclair aren’t going to be allowed as much freedom as they get playing weaker sides: that’s not a tactical problem, that’s just what happens when you play better sides.

And of course some marginal players are going to be found wanting under extreme pressure, and we saw that with Wood and Windhager. Hopefully Ratten has learnt something from that: he could be accused of being overly inclined to stick with his favourites.

I don’t think there is too much wrong ATM beyond the absence of Steele. We showed that, if we had had a slightly stronger lineup (eg with Steele plus an in-form Billings and a fully fit Clark) we would most likely have beaten the second best team in the comp on their home ground. I don’t think we’re good enough yet to win the comp, but we aren’t miles away either.

Ratts is a good coach IMO.

Head in sand
Look at inside 50s they kick straight we aren’t in it ffs stop banging on with “yeah but we were 12 points up” it papers over underlying issues
Why the hell can’t Max King and our forwards lead abd get some separation from opponents??is it laziness?? As Adam Coony noted we were just stagnant up forward wrestling!!
His point that we webt “safe” with ball movement after half time was also relevant
Anyway as others have noted we clearly lack their class and Steele isn’t going to bridge that gap alone
I would not be signing Ratten just yet - we could still miss finals or get belted week 1 against better quality opponents and I’m not sure that’s us moving forward

We could have lost this by 48 points. Could have been down six goals at 3/4 time. Brisbane missed so may gettable goals.

I don't know if we played better than against North and the Crows.

I suspect we are always bad after a bye too.

[Yorkeys]

Down three, possibly four, players in a highly aerobic demanding sport: tactics smatics, just turn off the lights and hope the points are split.

[B.M]

Possibly 4

What the hell does that mean?!

We were down 2 players

3 got injured and 1 got replaced by the medisub

[meher baba]

Head in sand
Look at inside 50s they kick straight we aren’t in it ffs stop banging on with “yeah but we were 12 points up” it papers over underlying issues
Why the hell can’t Max King and our forwards lead abd get some separation from opponents??is it laziness?? As Adam Coony noted we were just stagnant up forward wrestling!!
His point that we webt “safe” with ball movement after half time was also relevant
Anyway as others have noted we clearly lack their class and Steele isn’t going to bridge that gap alone
I would not be signing Ratten just yet - we could still miss finals or get belted week 1 against better quality opponents and I’m not sure that’s us moving forward

I haven't got my head in the sand. I'm just sick to death of cries of "We lost! Sack the coach! Sack the board! Sack this or that senior player! Bring in some guy from the seconds who never delivers much in the AFL but, hey, he wasn't part of this loss that I'm so upset about today so he's got to be better!"

St Kilda hasn't had much experience of winning premierships: an achievement which requires long-term planning and a patient, sustained effort. Our club hasn't been much good at those things for a long time, typically losing patience with the more successful coaches before their time and then looking for a new messiah. So Sheldon was forced to make way for Alves, who was forced in turn to make way for Watson. Then Thomas was forced to make way for nobody in particular, but thank goodness it eventually turned out to be someone who was a really good coach (this wasn't guaranteed at the time). Now it seems to me you are calling for Ratten to be replaced by someone, presumably Clarkson.

If, over the past few decades, the club had put half as much effort into strengthening its playing list that it did into sacking coaches, we might have one or more premierships to show for it. Finally, 16 years after Thomas's sacking, we have club leadership that sees developing our list as the most important thing: a path that was being followd to some extent in the early 2000s until everything fell apart in 2006 and, despite the great on-field success of 2008-10, the club's approach to list management went off the rails and remained pretty terrible for the best part of a decade.

The most successful clubs of recent years - the Tigers, Swans, Geelong, Hawks and, to a lesser extent, the Dogs - all had the patience to stick with their coaches and focus hard on building up the strength of their lists. Players need plenty of time to learn how to instinctively play together as a team: I reckon that's far more important than trying to fill their heads with complicated game plans that are probably mostly forgotten as soon as they run through the banner. The role of the head coach is not unimportant, but it's significantly overrated, especially in this era of large and complex football departments.

There are no quick fixes in football. I reckon we need to give the current club leadership, including Ratten, a few more years to show what they can do. Yes, we have a tough run home and we might conceivably miss out on the 8, although I very much doubt it. But the team has shown a lot in the two and a half years since Ratten took over - even last year at times - and the quality of the list has clearly improved significantly. I understand that being patient is a difficult thing for St Kilda supporters to manage. But manage it we must. I sincerely hope that the board doesn't suffer from the same sorts of frequent mood swings that are prevalent on fan forums.

[B.M]

Coach

Not the reason for wins

Not the reason for losses

Over inflated perception

[Scollop]

Coach matters….but it's the list that is paramount. Our group can’t execute. Our group is developing.

Pound for pound if you look at the players for the teams in the top 4 at the pointy end of each year, they are usually the teams with the best talent. They are usually groups that have had some stability and have a core group of elite players who have played together for a few years

Most people would agree that Melbourne has the best list right now

If Melbourne had a leader and respected person like Brett Ratten as their head coach do you think their season would unravel they way it has? I reckon the underlying issues with Goodwin have been there for quite a while and it slowly but surely infects the whole group.

I reckon Melbourne won last year because of the energy and the influence of Choco Williams. Perhaps Choco’s influence has been reduced intentionally by Goody in 2022 or perhaps Choc has lost the passion and energy and motivation with some of the crap he is seeing

We are building a really healthy culture at the Saints. Ratten needs five-six years to turn us into a regular top 4 contender.

[Devilhead]

or perhaps .... No May .... No Melbourne

[Scollop]

That’s bulldust. He’s not Wayne Carey. He’s replaceable, but at the moment they have culture issues

[Devilhead]

That’s bulldust. He’s not Wayne Carey. He’s replaceable, but at the moment they have culture issues

They have a non-May playing issue .... their backline is leaking like a sieve

[Teflon]

Head in sand
Look at inside 50s they kick straight we aren’t in it ffs stop banging on with “yeah but we were 12 points up” it papers over underlying issues
Why the hell can’t Max King and our forwards lead abd get some separation from opponents??is it laziness?? As Adam Coony noted we were just stagnant up forward wrestling!!
His point that we webt “safe” with ball movement after half time was also relevant
Anyway as others have noted we clearly lack their class and Steele isn’t going to bridge that gap alone
I would not be signing Ratten just yet - we could still miss finals or get belted week 1 against better quality opponents and I’m not sure that’s us moving forward

I haven't got my head in the sand. I'm just sick to death of cries of "We lost! Sack the coach! Sack the board! Sack this or that senior player! Bring in some guy from the seconds who never delivers much in the AFL but, hey, he wasn't part of this loss that I'm so upset about today so he's got to be better!"

St Kilda hasn't had much experience of winning premierships: an achievement which requires long-term planning and a patient, sustained effort. Our club hasn't been much good at those things for a long time, typically losing patience with the more successful coaches before their time and then looking for a new messiah. So Sheldon was forced to make way for Alves, who was forced in turn to make way for Watson. Then Thomas was forced to make way for nobody in particular, but thank goodness it eventually turned out to be someone who was a really good coach (this wasn't guaranteed at the time). Now it seems to me you are calling for Ratten to be replaced by someone, presumably Clarkson.

If, over the past few decades, the club had put half as much effort into strengthening its playing list that it did into sacking coaches, we might have one or more premierships to show for it. Finally, 16 years after Thomas's sacking, we have club leadership that sees developing our list as the most important thing: a path that was being followd to some extent in the early 2000s until everything fell apart in 2006 and, despite the great on-field success of 2008-10, the club's approach to list management went off the rails and remained pretty terrible for the best part of a decade.

The most successful clubs of recent years - the Tigers, Swans, Geelong, Hawks and, to a lesser extent, the Dogs - all had the patience to stick with their coaches and focus hard on building up the strength of their lists. Players need plenty of time to learn how to instinctively play together as a team: I reckon that's far more important than trying to fill their heads with complicated game plans that are probably mostly forgotten as soon as they run through the banner. The role of the head coach is not unimportant, but it's significantly overrated, especially in this era of large and complex football departments.

There are no quick fixes in football. I reckon we need to give the current club leadership, including Ratten, a few more years to show what they can do. Yes, we have a tough run home and we might conceivably miss out on the 8, although I very much doubt it. But the team has shown a lot in the two and a half years since Ratten took over - even last year at times - and the quality of the list has clearly improved significantly. I understand that being patient is a difficult thing for St Kilda supporters to manage. But manage it we must. I sincerely hope that the board doesn't suffer from the same sorts of frequent mood swings that are prevalent on fan forums.

You left of Richo
6 years of patience eloquently dismissed in more dross to make a bad point
Where did I say “sack the coach”
More lies to trump an argument that isn’t there - you vote Get Up last election?
Point is we don’t need to move on this coach right now when the true test got this side will play out second half of the season
Are you saying we should sign Ratten for 3 more if we miss finals entirely??????? Let’s hear it
Oh and I think we should explore the market and I don’t subscribe to the “Clarkson would confuse players with game plan” rubbish
Again 6 years of Richo not enough patience for you??????????

[Teflon]

Coach matters….but it's the list that is paramount. Our group can’t execute. Our group is developing.

Pound for pound if you look at the players for the teams in the top 4 at the pointy end of each year, they are usually the teams with the best talent. They are usually groups that have had some stability and have a core group of elite players who have played together for a few years

Most people would agree that Melbourne has the best list right now

If Melbourne had a leader and respected person like Brett Ratten as their head coach do you think their season would unravel they way it has? I reckon the underlying issues with Goodwin have been there for quite a while and it slowly but surely infects the whole group.

I reckon Melbourne won last year because of the energy and the influence of Choco Williams. Perhaps Choco’s influence has been reduced intentionally by Goody in 2022 or perhaps Choc has lost the passion and energy and motivation with some of the crap he is seeing

We are building a really healthy culture at the Saints. Ratten needs five-six years to turn us into a regular top 4 contender.

So you want him signed now?????

[Devilhead]

Think quite a few of us think we should wait until we sign Ratts or not sign Ratts ..... some saying end of the year .... others saying wait until end of H&A .... others thinking why wait

Next 5 weeks

Dopers
Swines
Bluescum
Dockers
Droggies

Let's see where we are at after this

[Teflon]

Think quite a few of us think we should wait until we sign Ratts or not sign Ratts ..... some saying end of the year .... others saying wait until end of H&A .... others thinking why wait

Next 5 weeks

Dopers
Swines
Bluescum
Dockers
Droggies

Let's see where we are at after this

Lions again in there?

[B.M]

Melbourne won last year for the following reasons

Petracca
Oliver
Gawn
May
Lever
Langdon

Take anyone of those out - Bulldogs win

Why
Bontempelli, McCrae, Smith, Libba and so on…

Players win premierships - not coaches

[Teflon]

Melbourne won last year for the following reasons

Petracca
Oliver
Gawn
May
Lever
Langdon

Take anyone of those out - Bulldogs win

Why
Bontempelli, McCrae, Smith, Libba and so on…

Players win premierships - not coaches

Obviously
Coaches don’t kick footys players do
Coaches do instill game and structures - I think Lyon was our best example of that
Like anything the right combination wins flags

[Devilhead]

Think quite a few of us think we should wait until we sign Ratts or not sign Ratts ..... some saying end of the year .... others saying wait until end of H&A .... others thinking why wait

Next 5 weeks

Dopers
Swines
Bluescum
Dockers
Droggies

Let's see where we are at after this

Lions again in there?

Weagles
Dorks
Pussies
Brions
Swines

[Devilhead]

Win 5 and keep our % level we make top 8

Win 7 and good chance for Top 4

[SaintPav]

Kane Cornes reckons we will miss the 8.

[Teflon]

Kane Cornes reckons we will miss the 8.

He’s never rated us who cares
But he got 1 thing right - we go to Max King way to often and Higgins second! Membrey not doing enough as second option
Play Sharman- I think that actually helps Membrey tbh

[saintkev]

Possibly 4

What the hell does that mean?!

We were down 2 players

3 got injured and 1 got replaced by the medisub

And one was frightened away.

[freely]

Melbourne won last year for the following reasons

Petracca
Oliver
Gawn
May
Lever
Langdon

Take anyone of those out - Bulldogs win

Why
Bontempelli, McCrae, Smith, Libba and so on…

Players win premierships - not coaches

But why did the Doggies win in 2016?
Beveridge.

[Scollop]

Melbourne won last year for the following reasons

Petracca
Oliver
Gawn
May
Lever
Langdon

Take anyone of those out - Bulldogs win

Why
Bontempelli, McCrae, Smith, Libba and so on…

Players win premierships - not coaches

But why did the Doggies win in 2016?
Beveridge.

Ask CURLY. He has the answer