Talent vs effort

[older saint]

I think last night showed the difference in talent between us and the top 4 sides.
We have some talented footballers, but generally win games based on effort and team performance. The issue is when we play teams with these qualities and more talent we lose.
Draft position is an imperfect measure but unfortunately the easiest to use when comparing talent on a roster.

Top 10 picks:
King, Billings, Clark (inj), Coffield (inj).

Crouch was a pre listing 17 year old so technically could add him to that.

Freo had 4 top 10 picks last night.

We are suffering from the slow development of Clark and Coffield (injuries definitely effected this) .

Moving beyond draft position breaking up a list into A, B, C graders using football talent and not champion data stats (remember 2020 Mason Cox was an elite forward according to them and playing reserves) here is how I see it ( hard marker).

A Grade (perform week in week out for the position at generally an elite level): Steele, Sinclair, Crouch,

B Grade: Ross, Gresham, King, Jones, Hill (consistency?),Billings, Marshall, Battle, membrey, Wilkie, Howard, mcKenzie, Higgins, Butler, Battle, Ryder,

C Grade: Long, Brynes, Kent, Geary, Lienert, Paton, Highmore, Connolly, Wood

Inj: Clark, Coffield, Bytel, Hayes, Hanners,

1st year( unfair to rank): Windy, owens, NWM, Peris, Adams, Heath,

Other : Allison, Campbell,

Compare A grade to :
Melb: Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May,
Bris: Neale, Daniher, Andrews, McClugage, Cameron
Geel: Hawkins, Dangerfield, Stewart, Guthrie,
Fre: Brayshaw, Fyfe, Serong, Ryan,
Carl: Cripps, Walsh, McKay, Wietering,

we can see why we went and got Hill, Crouch. We need to find another and develop what we have in 1st round talent.

[perfectionist]

A few years ago, Nathan Fyfe stood out amongst Freo players. Not any more. He's one of six or seven of a similar quality. They still lack a contested marking backman or two, which sets Melbourne apart from the rest. But I would rank Freo equal second with the Cats and Brisbane third, the latter two having a stronger home ground advantage that the other two.

We played on effort in the first half but woefully over used handball. There were numerous 5 or 6 backward handballs before a kick. A team is playing well when handballs go forward, it's just one of two, and then a kick to a lead. Five or six handballs to players who are behind the play are never going to magically produce a forward on his own. It only allows more time for the opposition to get back.

At the end of the day, we don't have the talent. Too many fumblers and poor kicks.

[Saintmike65]

I think last night showed the difference in talent between us and the top 4 sides.
We have some talented footballers, but generally win games based on effort and team performance. The issue is when we play teams with these qualities and more talent we lose.
Draft position is an imperfect measure but unfortunately the easiest to use when comparing talent on a roster.

Top 10 picks:
King, Billings, Clark (inj), Coffield (inj).

Crouch was a pre listing 17 year old so technically could add him to that.

Freo had 4 top 10 picks last night.

We are suffering from the slow development of Clark and Coffield (injuries definitely effected this) .

Moving beyond draft position breaking up a list into A, B, C graders using football talent and not champion data stats (remember 2020 Mason Cox was an elite forward according to them and playing reserves) here is how I see it ( hard marker).

A Grade (perform week in week out for the position at generally an elite level): Steele, Sinclair, Crouch,

B Grade: Ross, Gresham, King, Jones, Hill (consistency?),Billings, Marshall, Battle, membrey, Wilkie, Howard, mcKenzie, Higgins, Butler, Battle, Ryder,

C Grade: Long, Brynes, Kent, Geary, Lienert, Paton, Highmore, Connolly, Wood

Inj: Clark, Coffield, Bytel, Hayes, Hanners,

1st year( unfair to rank): Windy, owens, NWM, Peris, Adams, Heath,

Other : Allison, Campbell,

Compare A grade to :
Melb: Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May,
Bris: Neale, Daniher, Andrews, McClugage, Cameron
Geel: Hawkins, Dangerfield, Stewart, Guthrie,
Fre: Brayshaw, Fyfe, Serong, Ryan,
Carl: Cripps, Walsh, McKay, Wietering,

we can see why we went and got Hill, Crouch. We need to find another and develop what we have in 1st round talent.

All good points..if a club has top 10 selections, they must be nailed.
Our club picked 3 flanker types in Billings, Clark and Coffield, hoping they’d become mids.
Freo and others picked genuine mids, Serong, Bradshaw, Cera etc.
Melbourne with Petracca, Oliver, Bradshaw, Viney etc.
Games are won in the midfield and our foreign legion midfield gets found wanting when up against the strong clubs.

[sendmehomehappy]

I'm not sure I really understand what a flanker type is these days, and certainly not why St Kilda would pick them with top 10 picks instead of highly skilled midfielders.

When you have enough midfielders for the midfield, let the lesser lights spill out to the flanks.

Apart from the pure outsiders, all the rest would have at least some defensive skills, but with more overall class than "flankers."

[Impatient Sainter]

I think you have over rated a number of players OS, but its just varying opinions. Just like I believe astute coaching can significantly improve players. A lot of the A grade list you raised OS didnt just become elite players, they were developed and pushed to acheive that.

A classic example is Crouch. Who to me is very much in the Oliver mould before Choco got hold of him. He is presently a win ball and handball player and he rarely looks to take the game on with leg drive out of stoppages. That plus his kicking which is a high looping style - all that can be improved by creating the correct training and game reinforced standards.

Gresham is another who if he wants to play midfield he simply has to employ a sprinting coach in the off season and work on his speed and areobic fitness. Then with coaching reinforcement encourage him to become a stronger two way player, apply standards and have him work within his limits. At present teams know he is slow and a weak link working the other way and expose him. When was the last time you saw Gresham make an impact in defence or a have great run down tackle?

Clark is another who has the potential for significant improvement, but he needs to be told (harshly if reqd) to get an AFL ready physique and work harder on his overall running capacities. For what ever reason he has been allowed to cruise the entire time he has been at the club and someone needs to have a blunt conversation with him. He & King above all others on our list have the game to be an out and out A graders, but he needs to get to work.

I could go through the entire list and highlight improvements that could be acheived by smarter training and development. Billings is the classic of a C grade footballer who has been raised in a poor footballing environment, was rewarded $$$ wise when he didnt deserve it and now is subsequently just a gop. But in an elite environment with much higher standards I believe he would be twice the player he is today.

[Teflon]

Saw this on BF made sense to me

********

How about after last year missing finals our president said our time starts next year, and then next year, and then next year. There's always an excuse with this club. We had a soft draw early to get us momentum up and build confidence, instead we went to the bye looking good and came back like a bottom 4 side.

Next year isn't going to be easier, we need to start moving up or what's the point. One goodish season in 11 years isn't good enough. There isn't even an obvious fix.

We traded away high picks to recruit players to be ready to go while clubs like Freo went to the draft.

So far we look no closer and they have natural progression to come while ours are ageing.

[Scollop]

Poor skills is the main reason we lost in my opinion.

We could have been 4 or five goals up at half time if our team had more talent. I think on our home deck, with some momentum and some reward on the scoreboard it would have given the boys more confidence

We dominated possession in the first half and we dominated inside 50’s, yet we were only 8 points up at the long break.

We started the third quarter with some good looks inside 50 but again we failed to capitalise and we left the door open for them. That surge of 5-6 goals in the middle of that 3rd quarter was the Dockers putting on a clinic. They had the talent and they executed better. We never recovered from that

Probably a discussion that blends in with the ‘coaching’ threads, because we put ourselves into a position to win and I think the coaching was not the main issue. I just watched the replay. Fyfe’s input during that 3rd quarter was minimal.

We gave great effort for three and a half quarters and I think a number of things cost us the game, including some momentum shifts at critical times with shocking umpiring calls, but in the end we made poor decisions with the footy in hand and we couldn’t execute.

[older saint]

Poor skills is the main reason we lost in my opinion.

We could have been 4 or five goals up at half time if our team had more talent. I think on our home deck, with some momentum and some reward on the scoreboard it would have given the boys more confidence

We dominated possession in the first half and we dominated inside 50’s, yet we were only 8 points up at the long break.

We started the third quarter with some good looks inside 50 but again we failed to capitalise and we left the door open for them. That surge of 5-6 goals in the middle of that 3rd quarter was the Dockers putting on a clinic. They had the talent and they executed better. We never recovered from that

Probably a discussion that blends in with the ‘coaching’ threads, because we put ourselves into a position to win and I think the coaching was not the main issue. I just watched the replay. Fyfe’s input during that 3rd quarter was minimal.

We gave great effort for three and a half quarters and I think a number of things cost us the game, including some momentum shifts at critical times with shocking umpiring calls, but in the end we made poor decisions with the footy in hand and we couldn’t execute.

4 goals I remember from turnovers inside our 50.
Ryder drops overhead mark - Goal Darcey
Highmore grubber - Goal Brayshaw
Poor handball to joyce, pressure kick - goal
Another turnover by foot - goal

Foot skills are not good enough collectively.