A Ratten hypothetical

[st.byron]

Shouldn't have been extended mid-season. Should have waited until the end of the year and then made a hard headed decision about his tenure. Extending mid-season shut the door on any other possibility and cobbles the 'review' coz he's locked in.

You are assuming Clarkson didn't pick Nth 12 months ago, when Collingwood dumped.....ah Nathan quit and the Poos picked McRae.

Wasn't thinking about Clarkson. More that extending Ratten was premature. There was no good reason to do it mid season. Wait until the end and make a decision with knowledge of the whole season. Instead they jumped early, made it all warm and cuddly and two months later they're doing an 'extensive' review that doesn't include the possibility of changing the coach.

[Saints58]

Has the worst list in the comp and is unable to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.

That's how I see it too, quite unreasonable to judge Brett Ratten's coaching when the playing list is so bereft of quality talent - this year St Kilda had just 3 players to ever be selected All Australian and that includes Paddy Ryder who's well past his best, plus Jack Steele (once) and Jack Sinclair (once). I doubt if even master coach Alastair Clarkson (who was never going to pass over his old club North Melbourne to take on the St Kilda job) would have got much more out of this team in 2022.

Yes, I acknowledge that it has been hard to work out what the game plans were this year, but I put that down to the fact that in so many games players lacked the skills to nail their targets, often resulting in disastrous turnovers which put the team on the backfoot and become a shambles.

On the question of game plans, we often see teams put such extreme pressure on the opposition ball carriers that whatever game plan the losing team had goes out the window - for example the way Melbourne demolished the "well coached" Brisbane by 58 points in Round 23, in front of a sell out crowd at the Gabba no less!

I believe the club did the sensible thing at the time to extend Ratten's contract - and I am quite sure that would have been after they had explored all alternatives including Clarkson.

Of experienced coaches on the market at that time there were just Ross Lyon and Leon Cameron, and whilst Craig McRae has proved to be an inspired choice by Collingwood, how often does that happen? By the same token, McRae inherited a bloody good list with many experienced and elite players.....

As has been acknowledged many times before, the forthcoming trade and draft period will be crucial to improving the list and if the club can snag another three youngster like they did last year we're in for significant progress in 2023.

The trade period will be crucial but if we trade Clark who is a quality player which sounds like they will what do we get in instead.
Mitchell 30yo or Hartigan 30yo how does this help our development.
And Ben long if he goes as well we lose a hard at it tough player. If we lose these 2 guys we need good compensation back not 3/4 rounders we need at least a 1st for Clarke and 3rd for long or decent players.
Who else of the younger players are we going to trade?

[st.byron]

Ratts has Plan A. Which has now been worked out.
Never came up with Plan B.

Game day appears to be clueless.

Being the players best mate is ok. But doesn't bring them to account. Leadership an issue on and off the ground.

Spot on

[Teflon]

Maybe just get Ross Lyon back

Just don’t ask him to interview or present his vision.
I suppose we all know what his vision is:
Six goals to five
And bugger anyone not in his top twenty five or so

4GFs
More than Cuddles ,,,,fast attacking footy that’s not sustainable for a qtr ???
I’d take the Lyon era anyday thanks
There’s a reason why clubs want him still and why Essendon players apparently wanted him too
Demands excellence doesn’t suffer fools.
Unlike cuddles….”gee fellas….why not us??”
Cringe.

[CQ SAINT]

Maybe just get Ross Lyon back

Just don’t ask him to interview or present his vision.
I suppose we all know what his vision is:
Six goals to five
And bugger anyone not in his top twenty five or so

4GFs
More than Cuddles ,,,,fast attacking footy that’s not sustainable for a qtr ???
I’d take the Lyon era anyday thanks
There’s a reason why clubs want him still and why Essendon players apparently wanted him too
Demands excellence doesn’t suffer fools.
Unlike cuddles….”gee fellas….why not us??”
Cringe.

Yeah. And 5 grandfinals without a cup and the fantasy is finally over. Now he gets to be a couldabeen instead of a never was.

[CQ SAINT]

Maybe just get Ross Lyon back

Just don’t ask him to interview or present his vision.
I suppose we all know what his vision is:
Six goals to five
And bugger anyone not in his top twenty five or so

4GFs
More than Cuddles ,,,,fast attacking footy that’s not sustainable for a qtr ???
I’d take the Lyon era anyday thanks
There’s a reason why clubs want him still and why Essendon players apparently wanted him too
Demands excellence doesn’t suffer fools.
Unlike cuddles….”gee fellas….why not us??”
Cringe.

Yeah. And 5 grandfinals without a cup and the fantasy is finally over. Now he gets to be a couldabeen instead of a never was.

[repta]

Ratts has Plan A. Which has now been worked out.
Never came up with Plan B.

Game day appears to be clueless.

Being the players best mate is ok. But doesn't bring them to account. Leadership an issue on and off the ground.

What do you attribute to our absolutely hopeless effort in the first quarter of Spuds game?

Is that Ratts? (Hypothetical)
I guess so.

One thing that he is consistent with.. actually stkilda excel at.

Not turning up to big games.

- Spuds game
- Interstate - overseas games (building new markets)
- Good Friday
- players anniversary games

We have a perfect record

Plenty played none won.

Not only lost.. completely outplayed and flat each time

Absolutely the coaches roll.

[Scollop]

Maybe just get Ross Lyon back

Just don’t ask him to interview or present his vision.
I suppose we all know what his vision is:
Six goals to five
And bugger anyone not in his top twenty five or so

4GFs
More than Cuddles ,,,,fast attacking footy that’s not sustainable for a qtr ???
I’d take the Lyon era anyday thanks
There’s a reason why clubs want him still and why Essendon players apparently wanted him too
Demands excellence doesn’t suffer fools.
Unlike cuddles….”gee fellas….why not us??”
Cringe.

Yeah. And 5 grandfinals without a cup and the fantasy is finally over. Now he gets to be a couldabeen instead of a never was.

Love it

the fantasy is finally over.

[Teflon]

Maybe just get Ross Lyon back

Just don’t ask him to interview or present his vision.
I suppose we all know what his vision is:
Six goals to five
And bugger anyone not in his top twenty five or so

4GFs
More than Cuddles ,,,,fast attacking footy that’s not sustainable for a qtr ???
I’d take the Lyon era anyday thanks
There’s a reason why clubs want him still and why Essendon players apparently wanted him too
Demands excellence doesn’t suffer fools.
Unlike cuddles….”gee fellas….why not us??”
Cringe.

Yeah. And 5 grandfinals without a cup and the fantasy is finally over. Now he gets to be a couldabeen instead of a never was.

Love it

the fantasy is finally over.

What’s the point of that?
A journalist tweeting an opinion is your big reveal???
Bombers wanted Lyon - they still haven’t asked GT to put his hat in the ring as far as I can tell??
Odd.

[Scollop]

Bombers wanted Lyon

So you reckon Wallsy would have the last say Teffers? As Stan Grant would say…..Hmmmm

[Saints58]

should we go for Mark Williams as a forward coach at least sound him out he would be fantastic

[Teflon]

Bombers wanted Lyon

So you reckon Wallsy would have the last say Teffers? As Stan Grant would say…..Hmmmm

Stan Grant?????
Geezus …I rest my case.

[Teflon]

should we go for Mark Williams as a forward coach at least sound him out he would be fantastic

I’d go for him to oversee footy
He’s been hugely successful and popular now at 3 clubs won a flag
Has the passion to bring out the best in coaches and players
We won’t go near him.

[CQ SAINT]

There are only a few lists Lyon would want to coach. Unfortunately they are already coached, becoming successful with a solid leadership group and playing finals.
Ross remains much more relevant in the press, discussing what other coaches are doing wrong.

[Vortex]

should we go for Mark Williams as a forward coach at least sound him out he would be fantastic

I’d go for him to oversee footy
He’s been hugely successful and popular now at 3 clubs won a flag
Has the passion to bring out the best in coaches and players
We won’t go near him.

Chocco is also extremely attracted to quality lists, he won't come anywhere near us.

[Teflon]

should we go for Mark Williams as a forward coach at least sound him out he would be fantastic

I’d go for him to oversee footy
He’s been hugely successful and popular now at 3 clubs won a flag
Has the passion to bring out the best in coaches and players
We won’t go near him.

Chocco is also extremely attracted to quality lists, he won't come anywhere near us.

I’d make him an offer he can’t refusa…

[Gershwin]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

[samoht]

Quality recruiters make quality lists and in turn "quality coaches."

Paraphrasing the above ...
It takes a quality list to make a "quality coach"
... and for that you need quality recruiters.

Quality recruiters are at the crux of it.
That's what we need to concentrate on.

Quality recruiters are real ... quality coaches are a myth unto themselves.

[Vortex]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Or the balls not to change. Sometimes the best decision is not to make a change.

2024 will be the year for decisions on rebuilds and coaches. Until then the list is where significant change is required.

The list is overrated, the core is too small and defective. The club and recruiters will fast track our next wooden spoon if they think we are capable of finals 4 footy with this list.

[Teflon]

Quality recruiters make quality lists and in turn "quality coaches."

Paraphrasing the above ...
It takes a quality list to make a "quality coach"
... and for that you need quality recruiters.

Quality recruiters are at the crux of it.
That's what we need to concentrate on.

Quality recruiters are real ... quality coaches are a myth unto themselves.

Sorry this is dross and you’ve been peddling this myth for months
Ofcourse coaches need good players to win football matches
But coaches aren’t divorced from recruiting decisions- infact read Tim Watson who was critical that Rutten hadn’t been instructive enough with Doddoro in what player types he wanted recruited. You talk like the 2 are separate abs good recruiters do it all by themselves in a dark room. Utter garbage.
Equally we have numerous examples where coaches and coaching styles hold a list back - see Buckley exit at Pies and McRae arrival with a new ethos and brand of footy that isn’t conservative hug the boundary line stuff.
Great coaches can drastically improve a side and a list.
Go listen to Lyons comments on what you train for us how you play - coaches set that up including the drills to embed game plans and improve skills.
Stop with the simplistic “it’s just all a good list”
That’s not true.

[Teflon]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Or the balls not to change. Sometimes the best decision is not to make a change.

2024 will be the year for decisions on rebuilds and coaches. Until then the list is where significant change is required.

The list is overrated, the core is too small and defective. The club and recruiters will fast track our next wooden spoon if they think we are capable of finals 4 footy with this list.

Lol balls not to change??
The clubs made a mistake de appointing Ratten…Bassatt knows it and he’s been sold a pup by his footy Dept so he wants an independent view and has Noble in.
It’s too late ofcourse as after 3 years of Ratten we’ve seen enough to know what he brings but they stuffed it
Don’t try make it sound like it’s a considered strategy - what nonsense
Clubs coaching is in a state
He’s got 12 months and if we are here this time next year he’s gone

[Teflon]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Bang on
Great clubs don’t care about Caro media flak they do what’s right for their club
We are a scared little member of the AFL
Always nice to HQ and never criticise an a poor umpiring effort after we’ve been mauled yet again…
We’ll “go along with the flow” and keep Brett when blind Freddy can see he ain’t the man to take us anywhere
Now we are embarking on a mini rebuild AFTER the Prez telling us the windows open
I wish it were and I wish a few would jump out..

[samoht]

Brett Ratten has the same w/l ratio as Richo.
A new coach has not improved things ... once again x 20.

Did premiership winning coach Malthouse improve Carlton when he replaced Ratten?

Lyon was the worst recruiter and coach in history ... if we are going to blame coaches for recruiting or co-recruiting. I wouldn't waste my time listening to any of his commments.

We need to get our recruiting right ... and the best recruiters.

Fully concentrate on that.

[Teflon]

Brett Ratten has the same w/l ratio as Richo.
A new coach has not improved things ... once again x 20.

Did premiership winning coach Malthouse improve Carlton when he replaced Ratten?

Lyon was the worst recruiter and coach in history ... if we are going to blame coaches for recruiting or co-recruiting. I wouldn't waste my time listening to any of his commments.

We need to get our recruiting right ... and the best recruiters.

Fully concentrate on that.

So your Ratten benchmark is Richo???
**** me
And Lyons team, whilst in the window, delivered with consistency cause he demanded they train for it and play that way. That’s the coaches job ffs
Ratten for 3 has failed to do it - we’ve gone backwards every year
We took 6 years to work that out with Richo???
Thanks for ignoring RECENT examples in Buckley and McRae
I’ll answer your Malthouse one - he was finished BEFORE he went to Blues the game had passed him by
Has Voss improved Carlton after Teague????? I have Blues mates who now see a defensive side to their footy ???
Again - you think you just recruit well and it’s all hunky dory match day…..GWS have had the pick of multiple drafts with a super talented list …..how many flags Nostradamus???
You need a side well prepared
Clear game plan with a coach who, when opposition throw changes, tactically can respond from the box
Ratten has 1 trick - Membrey to defense???
**** me it ain’t hard to see that our list better prepared and coached would play finals imo

[st.byron]

Teflon is right. It's not just recruiting. If that were the case GWS would have 3 flags already. Of course coaching is crucial. He sets the tone for the whole group. And if you've got some like Richo who avoided conflict like the plague and wouldn't make tough calls, the boats not going to steer straight. Ratten's too cuddly as well. They play like their desperate for someone to take the reins.