Issues going forward

[meher baba]

A few thoughts which I've brought together on the one post so that it might prompt some discussion:

1. Opposing teams now appear to be putting more effort into countering Wilkie. This is having a detrimental impact on our defensive efforts, and the coaching staff need to work out a way to address this, although I think Webster coming back will eventually help the situation.

2. Crouch looks like he desperately needs a rest. The club should make Scollop's dreams come true and bring in Bytel for him against the Roos. Unlike many on here, I don't think Bytel is anywhere near as good as Crouch, but he'll do against the Roos.

3. Philippou looks like he needs some time at the Zebras to dominate a bit more and build his confidence (and, as BM suggests, work on passing the ball by foot rather than by hand). Billings will make a good replacement.

4. If it were up to me, I would stick with Cordy, Byrnes and Paton for now. Perhaps Caminiti can come back for Cordy against the Crows. Webster should be back after the bye, or possibly even before, and - assuming that Billings can play as well as I think he can - that will leave Byrnes, Paton and Philippou potentially competing for one spot. We all hope that Phillipou can make it his own, but perhaps that doesn't happen until 2024.

5. Steele played a lot better last night than he did against the Blues, so this will help our midfield situation going forward. I reckon that the first choice lineup featuring Steele, Crouch, Ross and Clark should be enough to beat most sides if they are all fit. Port Adelaide have a particularly powerful group of players at their core: the best we've played against so far this year IMO. JHF looks like an amazing prospect (although I suspect his attitude is going to be a problem for him, and the clubs for whom he plays, throughout his career).

[Bernard Shakey]

We were completely outmuscled all over the ground!

[WellardSaint]

Am i wrong, or did they get away from us at each centre bounce?
Even though our mids coach is a Hall of Famer?

[meher baba]

Am i wrong, or did they get away from us at each centre bounce?
Even though our mids coach is a Hall of Famer?

They were greatly superior to us at the centre bounces, but I don't think they won them all.

Port had a formidable lineup around the centre bounce, and our best mid is still coming back from injury.

Injuries have weakend our forward line so far this year, but our midfield remains our weakest link going forward. It's ok, without being stellar.

[cwrcyn]

In the heavy traffic Port were just better than us.

Other issues going forward

Will King and Membrey be able to provide the requisite forward pressure and chasing when they both play?


Marshall's work around the ground is excellent, but at centre bounces he is being out-rucked. Is there a need to change strategy at centre bounces?

Can Paton improve his decision making with ball in hand?

Can Byrnes provide more consistent output?

Should either Bytel or Windhager be playing in the starting 22 when we are at full strength?

[saynta]

In the heavy traffic Port were just better than us.

Other issues going forward

Will King and Membrey be able to provide the requisite forward pressure and chasing when they both play?


Marshall's work around the ground is excellent, but at centre bounces he is being out-rucked. Is there a need to change strategy at centre bounces?

Can Paton improve his decision making with ball in hand?

Can Byrnes provide more consistent output?

Should either Bytel or Windhager be playing in the starting 22 when we are at full strength?

Both imhfo.

[Banger9798]

Just watched the replay

Port are a very good side and have been playing beneath themselves recently. They really set themselves for this match against us on a 5 day break.

We are a good side and have some excellent players.

A couple of errors in the backline cost us, otherwise would have been a good win.

Very confident we will continue to improve.

Clark is approaching career best form

Owens is an absolute monster

NWM silk

Phillipou a wonderful talent

King and Billings to come back ....don't worry, we are in good hands

[Sanctorum]

I don't think the back 6 or centre 6 were a problem last night, rather the front 6 failed to function well at all.

Lyon mentioned post-match that when the ball was in St Kilda's attacking zone, no less than 4 times these resulted in bad turnovers with serious consequences.

If you look at the stats, St Kilda had 54 inside 50s but only 25 shots at goal, a return of just 46%, among the comp's lowest.

Simply not good enough and unacceptable if they are going to seriously contend for finals.

In contrast, the Saints won pretty well all other aspects of the game:

38 - 25 hit-outs
37 - 32 clearances (14 -11 centre bounces)
both contested and uncontested possessions
OMG, they even won the free kicks 28 -14!!!!

They need to do a lot work on the forward set-up and I don't know if Robert Harvey is the right man for this job, his forte is midfield which is Lenny Hayes' job.

I say this because conversely it is no accident that the defensive coach, Corey Enright, was an elite backman with Geelong.

Specialist structural coaches have to "know their onions" and that's the concern I have with Harvs in that role....there must be one or two elite forward coaches that they can bring in to assist the off-field squad.

That said, last night's loss was not a disaster and shouldn't have much impact on the stats provided by Champion Data that I posted on another thread, which stated that currently St Kilda is tracking along the same lines as the teams were in 1966 and 2009.

[SydneySainter]

Just watched the replay

Port are a very good side and have been playing beneath themselves recently. They really set themselves for this match against us on a 5 day break.

We are a good side and have some excellent players.

A couple of errors in the backline cost us, otherwise would have been a good win.

Very confident we will continue to improve.

Clark is approaching career best form

Owens is an absolute monster

NWM silk

Phillipou a wonderful talent

King and Billings to come back ....don't worry, we are in good hands

Port are good, but not as good as we made them look.

They’re not so good that they should be kicking 4 goals to zip on us in a qtr.

They exposed for the lack of height in the forward line, as an underdone Membrey was being easily managed by their defence and taking Cordy off was a bad move.

Also, we were out muscled in the midfield. Our midfield bulls in Crouch & Steele are both underdone. A teen on this third year having a blinder says it all.

Billings would not have helped, because we lost the midfield on strength, whereas at best, Billings just would have been another runner.

Midfield bulls almost used to be surplus to requirements. Now we badly need them.

[Superboot]

We were thrown off our normal game, snd scrapping to get back into it. Looked like a drop in confidence from early in the 3rd onwards.

Port applied a lot of pressure, but there was a 'perceived pressure' element to it. No need for Battle to turn it over so close to goal, for example. Just settle, have a look, and be careful.

And given the pressure that was actually there, we were really slow to dispose of it on too many occasions. The Steele holding the ball incident, for example.

The bonus is that we might learn more from this game than from any other so far.

[The Fireman]

Just watched the replay

Port are a very good side and have been playing beneath themselves recently. They really set themselves for this match against us on a 5 day break.

We are a good side and have some excellent players.

A couple of errors in the backline cost us, otherwise would have been a good win.

Very confident we will continue to improve.

Clark is approaching career best form

Owens is an absolute monster

NWM silk

Phillipou a wonderful talent

King and Billings to come back ....don't worry, we are in good hands

Port are good, but not as good as we made them look.

They’re not so good that they should be kicking 4 goals to zip on us in a qtr.

They exposed for the lack of height in the forward line, as an underdone Membrey was being easily managed by their defence and taking Cordy off was a bad move.

Also, we were out muscled in the midfield. Our midfield bulls in Crouch & Steele are both underdone. A teen on this third year having a blinder says it all.

Billings would not have helped, because we lost the midfield on strength, whereas at best, Billings just would have been another runner.

Midfield bulls almost used to be surplus to requirements. Now we badly need them.

Good to see you being rational again SS and you are right we are one midfield bull short

We need another crouch but a better one

[Otiman]

We were completely outmuscled all over the ground!

This is a very good point.

We have trained our team to run, not to wrestle.

In a game that turns into a physical wrestle, we lose.

Needed to swing the game back to a running game to win it.

Another big reason to have Windhager and Bytel in the side.

[Otiman]

We need another crouch but a better one

Matt Crouch isn't getting a game this year. Worth picking up as a DFA.

[Banger9798]

Bytel?
Maybe he's ready

[Scollop]

We need another crouch but a better one

Matt Crouch isn't getting a game this year. Worth picking up as a DFA.

No thanks

[Scollop]

I don't think the back 6 or centre 6 were a problem last night, rather the front 6 failed to function well at all.

Lyon mentioned post-match that when the ball was in St Kilda's attacking zone, no less than 4 times these resulted in bad turnovers with serious consequences.

If you look at the stats, St Kilda had 54 inside 50s but only 25 shots at goal, a return of just 46%, among the comp's lowest.

Simply not good enough and unacceptable if they are going to seriously contend for finals.

They need to do a lot work on the forward set-up and I don't know if Robert Harvey is the right man for this job…

Banga isn’t the problem. It’s the decision making and execution of players and that’s both our mids who are getting it in but not giving our forwards a chance…. AND also forwards themselves who can’t hit up their team mates by hand or foot or just waste their opportunities

[ace]

Am i wrong, or did they get away from us at each centre bounce?
Even though our mids coach is a Hall of Famer?

St Kilda two crack midfielders did not turn up.
Petracca and Bontempelli would have destroyed them but some imbeciles were allowed to sabotage the teams recruitment.

[bigcarl]

Am i wrong, or did they get away from us at each centre bounce?
Even though our mids coach is a Hall of Famer?

They were greatly superior to us at the centre bounces, but I don't think they won them all.

Port had a formidable lineup around the centre bounce, and our best mid is still coming back from injury.

Injuries have weakend our forward line so far this year, but our midfield remains our weakest link going forward. It's ok, without being stellar.

I think get Owens in there ASAP. Which will be when King and Caminiti are available.

[Teflon]

Our midfields one paced
Why is that an issue?? Did anyone notice at speed we had NO ONE who could go with JHF???
Clarke, Crouch, Steele, Ross…even Bytel are similar pace/style players
We need midfield variety - some run/carry with a bit of toe
Sinclair is closest along with Owens
Sooner these 2 start getting more looks in middle the better
Coffield to take Sincs HBF spot when fit

[Scollop]

Our midfields one paced
Why is that an issue?? Did anyone notice at speed we had NO ONE who could go with JHF???
Clarke, Crouch, Steele, Ross…even Bytel are similar pace/style players
We need midfield variety - some run/carry with a bit of toe
Sinclair is closest along with Owens
Sooner these 2 start getting more looks in middle the better
Coffield to take Sincs HBF spot when fit

With the current crop of players you've got guys like Lachie Neale, Tom Liberatore, Taylor Adams who are all ball hunters and also not quick (but watch how fast the footy travels when they handball)

Wines and Butters aren't quick. They just beat our guys to the footy when it counted and their clearances were more effective

[Devilhead]

Port played with spark and hunger and hunted the ball and man whereas we had a few little bursts here and there

Once Port got a proper sniff in that 2nd quarter we were done for as we couldn't sustain our effort or at least match theirs whether that was due to physical and/or mental tiredness it was obvious we were in trouble

Don't need to be much off your game these days to get beat

[Scollop]

The long bombs into the forward line were happening from the get go. Wood did it. Ross did it. Crouch did it and even Sincs did it

I find it amazing that people think it’s just the defenders fault which cost us the game. They made a few errors, but they weren’t the only reason we lost. I think our mids were ineffective and they couldn’t work enough as a team to run and gun and try and create some clean entries inside 50.

Port had a really good 2nd quarter, but we fought back. I thought we played the better footy and the ball lived in our forward half in the 3rd. We had our chances but inside 50 work was sloppy. Wasted too many entries with wayward kicks.

Then when we found targets in the pockets near the boundary late in the 3rd, Higgins just had absolutely no thought of sharing the footy.

Steele got us going with that first goal in the last quarter and Gresh got us the lead

We controlled the footy in the first ten minutes of the last quarter. We were the dominant team.

We had the momentum and we had about 5-6 entries inside 50 after the Gresh goal. ALL were again wasted.

Port only had about 4 entries for 2 goals while we had about 12 inside 50’s for 3 goals. Clark was showing the rest of our midfield what class looks like.

After Hunter’s goal, Rowan actually got a ruck tap to the advantage of our mids. The ball landed in Brad Couch’s lap and Brad get’s the stat that says ‘clearance’ and ‘contested possession’. Unfortunately it went straight to a Port player at Centre Half Back (just like most of his possessions on the day). There’s about 8 minutes to go.

What really annoys me isn’t when Crouch is under pressure in congestion and he turns it over, but it’s when he blasts away and wastes inside 50’s instead of looking for a team mate. After a goal to Finlayson and a goal to Charlie Dixon, it put them 8 points up. Ball goes to the middle and again we win a centre clearance. Theres under 6 minutes to go at this stage

Marshall gets a clear tap to Sinclair who handballs to Steele who gets it to Crouch. Boak is on his hammer so Crouch kicks to the flank. There’s no clean possession until again Sinclair and Steel combine and Crouch is the beneficiary. Instead of Brad using his captain who is free on the wing near the boundary he bombs it into the half forward flank (for a pathetic shallow entry) and we wasted another inside 50.

Allir marks about 45 out from our goal and then Port start controlling the footy and looking for the loose man. Port are still 8 points up and basically they win most of the 50/50 ball. They were more desperate and they won the ground ball contests.

Instead of the mids running and gunning which only happened once when Hunter Clark ran clear and demanded the footy, most of the time they kicked a tired long bomb to no one. Hunter was everywhere and even took a nice contested mark. He was brilliant in the last.

We got it inside 50 more than twice as many times as they did in the last quarter I reckon. The last opportunity we had was from Marshall getting a clear tap to advantage. Steele handballs to Sebby who kicks an up and under and it’s marked again by Allir. Port iced it after that with only 1 minute left to ice the game

[Toy Saint]

Unfortunately we lost a bit of our (recent) trademark endurance running along the wings. Unfortunately both Hill & Wanganeen took some heavy knocks and Mason Wood was moved forward. Without that run we were forced into a wrestle which suited Port.

Mason Wood is great when he's running the wings, but not as a forward marking option.

The loss of Camineti has affected our structure, and this was evident against Port. There has been much discussion around Cordy, on paper a tall forward, but I suspect a decoy. And again on paper a backup Ruckman, but if that's the case why was Owens in the ruck? Personally, I don't like Owens in the ruck, although he was very effective. He's a quality thoroughbred and we don't want his young body to get smashed up.

Our 2nd ruck is a quandary going forward. He needs to be capable forward as well as ruck. Our game plan requires mobility and that's probably why we're not using Campbell and probably why we're using Owens ahead of Cordy.

We're all looking forward to getting Max back, he will provide a forward marking option, but probably not pinch hit in he ruck, the same may apply to Caminiti. Jack Hayes seemed to fit the bill in his brief time last year and young Keeler sounds good on paper.

Overall, I reckon our issues going forward are mostly our key forward and 2nd ruck. Our backs and mids are solid and small forward capable.

[takeaway]

The long bombs into the forward line were happening from the get go. Wood did it. Ross did it. Crouch did it and even Sincs did it

I find it amazing that people think it’s just the defenders fault which cost us the game. They made a few errors, but they weren’t the only reason we lost. I think our mids were ineffective and they couldn’t work enough as a team to run and gun and try and create some clean entries inside 50.

Port had a really good 2nd quarter, but we fought back. I thought we played the better footy and the ball lived in our forward half in the 3rd. We had our chances but inside 50 work was sloppy. Wasted too many entries with wayward kicks.

Then when we found targets in the pockets near the boundary late in the 3rd, Higgins just had absolutely no thought of sharing the footy.

Steele got us going with that first goal in the last quarter and Gresh got us the lead

We controlled the footy in the first ten minutes of the last quarter. We were the dominant team.

We had the momentum and we had about 5-6 entries inside 50 after the Gresh goal. ALL were again wasted.

Port only had about 4 entries for 2 goals while we had about 12 inside 50’s for 3 goals. Clark was showing the rest of our midfield what class looks like.

After Hunter’s goal, Rowan actually got a ruck tap to the advantage of our mids. The ball landed in Brad Couch’s lap and Brad get’s the stat that says ‘clearance’ and ‘contested possession’. Unfortunately it went straight to a Port player at Centre Half Back (just like most of his possessions on the day). There’s about 8 minutes to go.

What really annoys me isn’t when Crouch is under pressure in congestion and he turns it over, but it’s when he blasts away and wastes inside 50’s instead of looking for a team mate. After a goal to Finlayson and a goal to Charlie Dixon, it put them 8 points up. Ball goes to the middle and again we win a centre clearance. Theres under 6 minutes to go at this stage

Marshall gets a clear tap to Sinclair who handballs to Steele who gets it to Crouch. Boak is on his hammer so Crouch kicks to the flank. There’s no clean possession until again Sinclair and Steel combine and Crouch is the beneficiary. Instead of Brad using his captain who is free on the wing near the boundary he bombs it into the half forward flank (for a pathetic shallow entry) and we wasted another inside 50.

Allir marks about 45 out from our goal and then Port start controlling the footy and looking for the loose man. Port are still 8 points up and basically they win most of the 50/50 ball. They were more desperate and they won the ground ball contests.

Instead of the mids running and gunning which only happened once when Hunter Clark ran clear and demanded the footy, most of the time they kicked a tired long bomb to no one. Hunter was everywhere and even took a nice contested mark. He was brilliant in the last.

We got it inside 50 more than twice as many times as they did in the last quarter I reckon. The last opportunity we had was from Marshall getting a clear tap to advantage. Steele handballs to Sebby who kicks an up and under and it’s marked again by Allir. Port iced it after that with only 1 minute left to ice the game

Thanks for your commentary. I think. You love watching Crouch from the couch with your little notepad don't you? Obviously he is a spud. Definite out for game vs North. Who do you suggest replaces him?

[Vortex]

Our one wood being our "flint hard" fitness and the advantage it has given us for the early part of the season will narrow and come back to the pack as the season draws on, it will especially be an interesting space to watch during the cold hard months of June through to August which will also be the time coinciding with the part of the season we have historically put the cue in the rack.

The sugar hit from the Lyon aurora could also be fading, especially with the fringe players who have been playing really well in the first 4 to 6 weeks but have been playing for their careers. I've always felt players who require that type of motivation to perform generally can't maintain the rage, Dunstan is the most recent and best example of my point.

The Lyon game plans have also been very taxing and this young group will also struggle at times as they did at Freo for many years, it's a great plan but it needs battle hardened warriors to go deep into September so my view is Lyon is only just going to start learning more about what his list needs are.

And finally, one of the other advantages we had during the first 6 weeks was the competition really learning what our system is, they now know how to pull us apart, even on our beloved quick small deck at Docklands.