Classic Plugger

[karnak]

Would Plugger (or any othe star) be a champion today if he was 17 and about to embark on a career.

The answer is of course he would. Judd is Judd not just cause of his natural abilities but because of technology. If Judd was born in the 1930's he would have dominated the competition, however; the gym equipment would have been poor, he would have been working a full time job. and boozing every other night. The point is that a champion in any era could be a champion in todays terms. But you can't just transfer them.

you would have to see them born later so that they can devlop with current technologies and tactics.

Ask yourself this. It isnt' the game that has changed, it is how the people playing it have changed the game. The point is that over time as it has become more professional the players have had to work harder to make it. Plugger would be no exception, in todays game with todays technology he would be just as much of a freak because of his agro and sporting abilty.

Dont' underestimate peoples abilities to adapt, however; instead of being 6"3 and 108kg with a bit of flab. He'd be 6"3, 103kg of solid muscle.

In conclusion, if Lockett was born 20 years later he would be even better than he was in his day, (not relative to the competiion necessarily) because of better technology, training facilities, dietry information etc.

over and out.

[stinger]

i remember plugger running into the goals and kicking the ball low ...trying to take the head off of that white haired pr!ck who used to hog the limelight when ever the swans would sign their song...pity he missed ...

those low torps used to go like an exocet missile. iit was unusual for plugger to miss anything from point blank range so the old bloke must have moved away just in time. he was lucky because, as you say, it would have taken his head clean off.

in later years the old white-haired bloke became plugger's no. 1 fan ... one of football's complete u-turns

have a look at the video......it is the goal where tony runs right into the square..

...i have copied stbyrons link...

[st.byron]

i remember plugger running into the goals and kicking the ball low ...trying to take the head off of that white haired pr!ck who used to hog the limelight when ever the swans would sign their song...pity he missed ...

those low torps used to go like an exocet missile. iit was unusual for plugger to miss anything from point blank range so the old bloke must have moved away just in time. he was lucky because, as you say, it would have taken his head clean off.

in later years the old white-haired bloke became plugger's no. 1 fan ... one of football's complete u-turns

have a look at the video......it is the goal where tony runs right into the square..

...i have copied stbyrons link...

You've got to love the way he runs on and eyeballs the Sydney crowd with absolute menace. Lucky too that after his last mark, the left arm swing didn't connecct with Kickett's head. He would have had the pill taken off him.

[Falchoon]

Tony Lockett at 18 years of age was not 108 kg. Probably not even 90 kg.

He'd have been drafted today, one thing that set him apart, barring his physique was his skills, his right foot was the best in the club, his left foot was the best in the club and I always said he was a better mark than Loewe.

But anyone questioning his athleticism needs to get their hands on a copy of a state game where he went into the ruck in the last quarter and dominated.

When he came back from his ankle then back he was a lot heavier and still dominated, prior to that he was an athlete. Either wat he dominated in a way we won't see again.

My nephew once asked me Riewoldt or Lockett.

Not even a contest.

[bigcarl]

But anyone questioning his athleticism needs to get their hands on a copy of a state game where he went into the ruck in the last quarter and dominated.

as someone else pointed out his chronic asthma didn't help.

if not for that he could have played any key position on the ground without a problem.

actually played at full back (under tony jewell, i think) early on. also won us matches when swung into the ruck and moved to chf.

thankfully, he played most of his football in his best position.

after all, why would you play the best full forward of all time (imo) anywhere other than full forward? it's a no-brainer

[Beej]

OLB you're ability to compile great video package is just phenomenal - can you do a Plugger one?? I respect your viewpoint and know where your coming from. I just firmly believe that the game ha not changed that much that a young Tony Lockett would not still forge a superb career in today's game. There is always room for a freak in the game - look at Judd!!!

Thanks yipper! Unfortunately I have no access to any footage of his so, as much as I would love to, it's impossible for me to come up with anything.

Has there been a highlights dvd of his released?

Would Plugger (or any othe star) be a champion today if he was 17 and about to embark on a career.

The answer is of course he would. Judd is Judd not just cause of his natural abilities but because of technology. If Judd was born in the 1930's he would have dominated the competition, however; the gym equipment would have been poor, he would have been working a full time job. and boozing every other night. The point is that a champion in any era could be a champion in todays terms. But you can't just transfer them.

you would have to see them born later so that they can devlop with current technologies and tactics.

Ask yourself this. It isnt' the game that has changed, it is how the people playing it have changed the game. The point is that over time as it has become more professional the players have had to work harder to make it. Plugger would be no exception, in todays game with todays technology he would be just as much of a freak because of his agro and sporting abilty.

Dont' underestimate peoples abilities to adapt, however; instead of being 6"3 and 108kg with a bit of flab. He'd be 6"3, 103kg of solid muscle.

In conclusion, if Lockett was born 20 years later he would be even better than he was in his day, (not relative to the competiion necessarily) because of better technology, training facilities, dietry information etc.

over and out.

I have no doubt that if Lockett was 15 years old right now, he'd have every chance to go on and become a superstar of the game. I'm not debating that at all. But no, you couldn't transfer a footballer (or any athlete) from one era to another and expect him to dominate in the same fashion. Technology plays a massive part, definitely, but it's also the evolution of skills.

It is my opinion that if, for example, Robert Harvey dedicated his life to hockey, he would've become one of the best hockey players in the world. It's ones mentality more than anything which makes someone great.

We see things in footy today that we didn't see 10 years ago, like Daniel Wells catching the ball out of a ruck contest and kicking a goal in one motion before hitting the ground, like Motlop kicking a checkside goal from outside 50 on what should've been the wrong side. Basic skills have improved remarkably over the last 5 years let alone 50.

Players become great because, in a way, they're before their time. They do things nobody else has seen. The next batch of players see these things, master it, and something that was once so incredible all of a sudden becomes common place. This is why players naturally get better over time.

[bigcarl]

Has there been a highlights dvd of his released?

i've got a couple of the video ones somewhere, but not the dvds. something i'd love to have for a bit of nostalgia. they were exciting days going to moorabbin and wondering how many he'd kick that day.

[The Fireman]

I saw every game plugger played and during his time with the Saints was a shining light in a sea of darkness, it was the firt time for me to actually witness a champion in a StKilda side, I witnessed many huge losses over a long period so Plugger was good medicine.

I compiled a video tape of Plugger which had almost every mark he took that was on video but instead of burning it on his leaving I gave it to a Swans supporter. I can still remember when Plugger pulled the pin on the Saints for the big bucks just like when people say they remember exactly where they were when Kenndy was shot or man stepped on the moon, I heard it on 3aw when Brian Taylor announced he would never play the for the Saints again, apart from the fact I was not used to the Saints losing players to other sides (mainly bercause we didn't have any to lose) it was the turning point in how I perceived the game. I was shattered.

I was at "that" Swans game and I ran like crazy to Plugger at the final siren, is still one of my favourite games and it also highlighted the hypocrisy's of the game, the hate that was displayed towards Plugger by the Swans crowd that day was incredible, I had never witnessed so much hate at a game before then and to see these same people hanging out of Pluggers backside only months later was incredible not to mention sickening.
I would walk end to end at Moorabbin to watch Plugger and was lucky enough to meet him on occasions but today I would not piss on him if he was on fire(and I'm a fireman)some will argue he gave the club good service and he did but I just can't get my head around him abandoning the club , maybe I just couldn't bare to watch him play for another club, he should have stayed.

[bigcarl]

today I would not piss on him if he was on fire(and I'm a fireman)some will argue he gave the club good service and he did but I just can't get my head around him abandoning the club

yeah, it hurt when he left ... but in the end he became a property of the game. nowadays i'm just glad that the afl's greatest goalkicker played his best football for st kilda.

[The Fireman]

today I would not piss on him if he was on fire(and I'm a fireman)some will argue he gave the club good service and he did but I just can't get my head around him abandoning the club

yeah, it hurt when he left ... but in the end he became a property of the game. nowadays i'm just glad that the afl's greatest goalkicker played his best football for st kilda.

I makes me sick when Swan supporters brag about him especially when you consider how many of them are still trying to grasp the concept of the game,. He would have been number one Saints legend if he had stayed.
Robert Harvey resisted being a property of the game.

[Oh When the Saints]

We see things in footy today that we didn't see 10 years ago, like Daniel Wells catching the ball out of a ruck contest and kicking a goal in one motion before hitting the ground, like Motlop kicking a checkside goal from outside 50 on what should've been the wrong side. Basic skills have improved remarkably over the last 5 years let alone 50.

I read that quote out to my grandfather and he laughed.


He said go and tell that person to watch some of the stuff Baldock or Ian Stewart could do with a football. Said there has always been skillful players and the stuff those blokes did with the ball was the equal of anything you would see today.

[Beej]

We see things in footy today that we didn't see 10 years ago, like Daniel Wells catching the ball out of a ruck contest and kicking a goal in one motion before hitting the ground, like Motlop kicking a checkside goal from outside 50 on what should've been the wrong side. Basic skills have improved remarkably over the last 5 years let alone 50.

I read that quote out to my grandfather and he laughed.


He said go and tell that person to watch some of the stuff Baldock or Ian Stewart could do with a football. Said there has always been skillful players and the stuff those blokes did with the ball was the equal of anything you would see today.

Of course he'd say that.

In the next 50 years the level of footy would have risen by astronomical amounts again and when my grandkids are explaining to me how good the modern footballers are and all the magical things they can do, you can bet I'll be telling them in no uncertain terms that none would be able to hold a candle to a certain Nick Riewoldt.

Watch the 66 Grand Final and have a look at the difference. There have always been skilful players, without a doubt, but it's all relative to the era.

Once upon a time I'm sure a 30 metre kick hitting someone on the chest was something to marvel at. These days if you can't do that you'll struggle to get a game. Well, you should.

Players in the 70s would always go long and to a contest. They weren't precise enough to consistently hit short targets. Nowadays kicking to a contest is a last option.

Switching the play by kicking the ball across the face of goal was once seen as risky, now it's a common method to launch an attack.

[Oh When the Saints]

But that's the point - go and watch old matches. Some of the skills on show are just as good as you would see today.

Peter Daicos 20 years ago was a more skillful shot for goal than anyone playing AFL footy at the moment IMO.


Your argument here is based on a false view of infinite improvement in man's limited physical capabilities. It's an inherent contradiction. You say the level of "footy" will have risen by astronomical amounts in 50 years, but that supposes a change in the physical composition of man himself. There is a limited amount that can be extracted from a human being in terms of physical attributes.

But no, you couldn't transfer a footballer (or any athlete) from one era to another and expect him to dominate in the same fashion. Technology plays a massive part, definitely, but it's also the evolution of skills.

How do you explain the multitude of world records in several sports that have remained unbroken for twenty or thirty years?

Who was the most skillful soccer player of all time? Would Pele have had the same impact if he were playing in the Premier League this weekend?


There is no-one at St Kilda who has the kicking ability of Lockett - maybe Goddard.

I agree that skills across the board have improved - and that's where technology and professionalism come into play - but the ability of the elite, "freakish" players has not changed.


Lockett would dominate had he played at full-forward for the Saints in 2007.

[Beej]

But that's the point - go and watch old matches. Some of the skills on show are just as good as you would see today.

Peter Daicos 20 years ago was a more skillful shot for goal than anyone playing AFL footy at the moment IMO.


Your argument here is based on a false view of infinite improvement in man's limited physical capabilities. It's an inherent contradiction. You say the level of "footy" will have risen by astronomical amounts in 50 years, but that supposes a change in the physical composition of man himself. There is a limited amount that can be extracted from a human being in terms of physical attributes.

But no, you couldn't transfer a footballer (or any athlete) from one era to another and expect him to dominate in the same fashion. Technology plays a massive part, definitely, but it's also the evolution of skills.

How do you explain the multitude of world records in several sports that have remained unbroken for twenty or thirty years?

Who was the most skillful soccer player of all time? Would Pele have had the same impact if he were playing in the Premier League this weekend?


There is no-one at St Kilda who has the kicking ability of Lockett - maybe Goddard.

I agree that skills across the board have improved - and that's where technology and professionalism come into play - but the ability of the elite, "freakish" players has not changed.


Lockett would dominate had he played at full-forward for the Saints in 2007.

It's an interesting topic.

Daicos was amazing because by dribbling all those goals through from the boundary line he seemingly made the footy talk. He was before his time. Nowadays, players practice that sort of stuff in training, and you see it quite frequently. Now Jarrad Waite not only dribbles the ball in for a goal, but he dribbles the ball around the man on the mark as well. Those types of goals are becoming less and less miraculous.

The only thing in the game that hasn't improved has been goal-kicking. It's a science and there's a lot more to it than just technical ability. It's like a penalty in soccer - no matter how good a player is or how good players will become, they'll still miss penalties.

It's like the serve in tennis, we'll always see double faults just like we'll always see golfers miss simple putts. They're mistakes and humans will always make mistakes, we're not robots.

I think soccer is a bit different - because it's a game more about touch than anything else. As a game it's more simple, less complex. The level of skills have definitely improved over the last 50 years, but not to the same extent as footy because there's a lot less involved and less areas that can be improved such is its simplicity.

Records are made to be broken. I don't think man has a limit. As time goes on and technology improves, man will continue to run faster and jump higher.

The 100m world record over the last 40 years has dropped by .20 seconds. If the trend continues that would mean that in 200 years the record would have dropped by a whole second. So by the year 3407 the world record for the fastest 100 metres should be around 2.74 seconds. The race will be run and then everyone will gather around their virtual-stadium for the super slow motion replay.

[bigcarl]

Lockett would dominate had he played at full-forward for the Saints in 2007.

... and he's 41 years old

[Dis Believer]

I don't think the skills are any better today than they were "back when" it's just that there is a higher number of players that can execute them - that is what comes with professionalism and more practice. The players are certainly more athletic though - as they should be!

Lockett however was a freak. I was fortunate enough to watch his whole career, and like many he was my bright light in a time of darkness. For a while, the result of matches was almost secondary to Plugger's output for the match, as the game outcome was almost a forgone conclusion in the 80's.
He would tear plenty of opposition a new one today. He was big, WIDE, fast of the mark, had great hands and a mean streak a mile wide. He also had a great footy brain. He genuinely put the fear of God into opponents, but in hindsight his skills are under-rated by many. The goal against Fitzroy down in Tassie in '91 being a case in point. The round 7 game in the '91 season was his first game for the year (the massive win against the Crows). He gave everyone a 6 game start and kicked 12, 10 & 12 in his first 3 games to be within a few goals of the coleman lead after 3 weeks. He was the reason that flooding evolved. As someone rightly pointed out, in round 10 that year, Sheedy played an 8 man backline against us and limited Plugger to about 3 goals. Tim Watson (a name we would all grow to love later on) carved up our backline and we lost the game. After that, a starting backline of more than 6 men became common against us. In that '91 season (if memory is correct), Plugger kicked 127 goals from just 17 games, including 1 final. That equates to about 7.5 goals per game.
Trust me, with the delivery our forwards got in 04 and 05, he would have re-written the record books.............

[stinger]

[

Once upon a time I'm sure a 30 metre kick hitting someone on the chest was something to marvel at. These days if you can't do that you'll struggle to get a game. Well, you should.

Players in the 70s would always go long and to a contest. They weren't precise enough to consistently hit short targets. Nowadays kicking to a contest is a last option.

.

i'm not so sure about that......i think the risk element has been minimised.....but a lot of the skills of the game have been lost...not improved......blokes like jimmy ross and kevin roberts could kick dropkicks 60 -70 yards with pin point accuracy.....and it and the stab pass have been long forgotten.....as well as the place kick...blokes like dave mcnamara could reef the ball a country mile......



my father was brought down from the country as a 17 year old by the dees.......he was a highly skilled centreman......when i was young he would delight in knocking me off my feet with bullet like stab passes over 25-30 yards.....would hit me on the chest everytime........stewart was a beautiful kick......could hit the doc on the chest everytime with a beautiful left foot kick ...

...the most accurate kick i have every seen was billy young..........five kicks...five goals...you could bet your house on it.....

[Eastern]

Gilbert McAdam is/was one of the best kicks of a football I have seen (Long & Short) !!

[bigcarl]

I just can't get my head around him abandoning the club

funny how the passage of time lessens the pain of him leaving and people tend to remember the good times instead.

just as ian stewart is referred to as a st kilda and richmond champion, lockett would be correctly described as a st kilda and sydney champion.

he did win a brownlow playing for st kilda, won us countless games and kicked 800-odd goals of his 1300-plus for us.

but i can see where you are coming from.