Is your BBQ up to it?

[saintspremiers]

Just tell me the last time a new stadium was built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

We all know there hasn't been a new stadium built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

But I think the debate isn't about the past - it's about the future.

Think beyond Melbourne, if you can, and up to the burgeoning growth areas of Queensland. The major urban growth area of Queensland is the Gold Coast.

Skilled Park is located in the suburb of Robina in the Gold Coast City Council. It was opened in March 2008 and is the home ground of:

* NRL club Gold Coast Titans
* A-league club Gold Coast United which will join the A-League in 2009.

It seats 27,400 spectators.

It is more than 5km from Brisbane - in fact it is 75 km from Brisbane.

Now we are comparing Casey to the most popular tourist area in Australia. You really are a funny man.

Are you going to ask if he is child also by any chance?

[casey scorp]

Just tell me the last time a new stadium was built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

We all know there hasn't been a new stadium built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

But I think the debate isn't about the past - it's about the future.

Think beyond Melbourne, if you can, and up to the burgeoning growth areas of Queensland. The major urban growth area of Queensland is the Gold Coast.

Skilled Park is located in the suburb of Robina in the Gold Coast City Council. It was opened in March 2008 and is the home ground of:

* NRL club Gold Coast Titans
* A-league club Gold Coast United which will join the A-League in 2009.

It seats 27,400 spectators.

It is more than 5km from Brisbane - in fact it is 75 km from Brisbane.

Now we are comparing Casey to the most popular tourist area in Australia. You really are a funny man.

You really do take the cake.

You asked a question – where had a stadium been built more than 5km from the City of Melbourne?

You get an answer you don’t like, so you misrepresent the answer.

Nowhere in my response did I mention Casey. I simply pointed out to you that Melbourne wasn’t the only place where stadiums were being built, and provided you with an example where a stadium was being built 75 km from the State capital in Queensland.

The Gold Coast has a permanent population of around 480,000 people (they aren’t tourists). It has similar demographic characteristics to the rest of Australia.

It might be a popular tourist area, but it is the fact that it is a major population area, with significant growth, that is the driving force for attracting elite national sporting code clubs and hence stadiums.. There is no doubt that the tourism will help with attendances, but it isn’t the primary consideration.

Kids 0-4 (GC) = 5.9%
Kids 0-4 (Aust) = 6.3%

15-54 (GC) = 55.4%
15-54 (Aust) = 55.8%

65+ (GC) = 14.1%
65+ (Aust) = 13.3%

Full time workers (GC) = 59.1% (of workforce)
Full time workers (Aust) = 60.7% (of workforce)

Part time workers (GC) = 30.0% (of workforce)
Part time workers (Aust) = 27.9% (of workforce)

You ought to do just a bit of research instead of just responding with puerile comments - come to think of it my 14yo son can debate with more logic. Let's call it sub-puerile.

[Solar]

really interesting stats... had an idea that the GC was a growth area but that really confirms it.

Interestly casey actually has a better formed local comp and sporting culture then the GC. Very similar to waveley when it was built, developing area away from the city centre.

Anyway there wont be another stadium in mlebourne because all the good areas have been taken. Redeveloping princess park would be the closest position IMO, since olympic park has been already been taken to re-develop.

[plugger66]

Just tell me the last time a new stadium was built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

We all know there hasn't been a new stadium built more than 5kms from the City of Melbourne in the last 10 years.

But I think the debate isn't about the past - it's about the future.

Think beyond Melbourne, if you can, and up to the burgeoning growth areas of Queensland. The major urban growth area of Queensland is the Gold Coast.

Skilled Park is located in the suburb of Robina in the Gold Coast City Council. It was opened in March 2008 and is the home ground of:

* NRL club Gold Coast Titans
* A-league club Gold Coast United which will join the A-League in 2009.

It seats 27,400 spectators.

It is more than 5km from Brisbane - in fact it is 75 km from Brisbane.

Now we are comparing Casey to the most popular tourist area in Australia. You really are a funny man.

You really do take the cake.

You asked a question – where had a stadium been built more than 5km from the City of Melbourne?

You get an answer you don’t like, so you misrepresent the answer.

Nowhere in my response did I mention Casey. I simply pointed out to you that Melbourne wasn’t the only place where stadiums were being built, and provided you with an example where a stadium was being built 75 km from the State capital in Queensland.

The Gold Coast has a permanent population of around 480,000 people (they aren’t tourists). It has similar demographic characteristics to the rest of Australia.

It might be a popular tourist area, but it is the fact that it is a major population area, with significant growth, that is the driving force for attracting elite national sporting code clubs and hence stadiums.. There is no doubt that the tourism will help with attendances, but it isn’t the primary consideration.

Kids 0-4 (GC) = 5.9%
Kids 0-4 (Aust) = 6.3%

15-54 (GC) = 55.4%
15-54 (Aust) = 55.8%

65+ (GC) = 14.1%
65+ (Aust) = 13.3%

Full time workers (GC) = 59.1% (of workforce)
Full time workers (Aust) = 60.7% (of workforce)

Part time workers (GC) = 30.0% (of workforce)
Part time workers (Aust) = 27.9% (of workforce)

You ought to do just a bit of research instead of just responding with puerile comments - come to think of it my 14yo son can debate with more logic. Let's call it sub-puerile.

So we are talking about Melbourne and there hasnt been a stadium built more than 5km from the city in the last 10 years so you then go and pick the Gold Coast. The answer you gave is right in that it is more than 5km from Melbourne it is just in the wrong state.

Why would you even bring up the Gold Coast. It has nothing to do with building a stadium in Casey or any other place in Melbourne. The Gold Coast is a huge city so building a stadium there has nothing to do with your beloved Casey. The one thing with your logic is that it is illogical.

[casey scorp]

So we are talking about Melbourne and there hasnt been a stadium built more than 5km from the city in the last 10 years so you then go and pick the Gold Coast. The answer you gave is right in that it is more than 5km from Melbourne it is just in the wrong state.

Yes, we are talking about a new stadium for Melbourne, but why would you ignore what is happening in other parts of Australia. The world has moved on from the days of the horse and cart, where what happens in your world tomorrow is generally what has happened in previous decades. We can recognise that the world is constantly changing, and we can look at the experiences of other areas, and learn from them.

Or we can just put our head in the sand, and say “well it hasn’t happened here in the last 10 years, so it won’t happen here in the next 10 yearsâ€

[plugger66]

So we are talking about Melbourne and there hasnt been a stadium built more than 5km from the city in the last 10 years so you then go and pick the Gold Coast. The answer you gave is right in that it is more than 5km from Melbourne it is just in the wrong state.

Yes, we are talking about a new stadium for Melbourne, but why would you ignore what is happening in other parts of Australia. The world has moved on from the days of the horse and cart, where what happens in your world tomorrow is generally what has happened in previous decades. We can recognise that the world is constantly changing, and we can look at the experiences of other areas, and learn from them.

Or we can just put our head in the sand, and say “well it hasn’t happened here in the last 10 years, so it won’t happen here in the next 10 yearsâ€

[To the top]

And who is presenting that Docklands is anything other than a "white elephant", despite being located as it is?

Docklands was initially financed by the "owner" borrowing from a bank plus attracting "equity" by offering "Stapled Security" instruments thru a prospectus which envisaged the project listing on the ASX.

I wonder if anyone still has a copy of that Prospectus?

There were massive construction over-runs.

The "Stapled Security" investors were in it for the taxation breaks, exclusively and courtesy of an ATO Ruling and a complex borrowing structure to accomodate that ruling.

The "stapled Security" investors met progress payments thru calls made on them.

But the cost over-runs led to problems, the envisaged business model never materialised, the "Stapled Security" investors lost their money and the stadium has passed thru several owners, each losing money.

The current impasse between the AFL and the current proprietors of the stadium, which is before the courts, points to the financial duress the stadium continues to be under because it can not generate sufficient revenue to service its operational and (written down) debt servicing obligations.

In being seduced into constructing stadiums, Docklands is at best a case study for how you do not go about it and at worst a classic case study as to why you would not construct a stadium.

As with any enterprise, that enterprise needs to meet its operational costs, its opportunity costs, its debt servicing costs (including principal repayment over the economic life time - buildings also pass their use by dates for a raft of reasons) and produce a return for investors.

And, of course, they are specific use assets - which introduces significant risk.

So if the talk is constructing stadiums the response is be very, very careful and have very, very, very deep pockets.

[To the top]

Just on the Geelong situation, Westpac wrote off $3 Million but collateral to that "arrangement" was that GFC re-finance $4 Million of the $7 Million debt they had at Westpac, which they did with Bendigo Bank.

I am unaware of the "arrangements" at Bendigo Bank and whether any amount of the re-financed debt of $4 Million was appropriated to "sponsorship" by Bendigo Bank.

The problem with debt and sporting clubs (including for facilities) is that the revenue generated by sporting clubs is "concessional" revenue which is the first stream of revenue to dry up when, as Buffet says, the tide goes out and you find out who is swimming naked.

Geelong got caught swimming naked in the late 1990's and now Collingwood has been caught swimming naked.

Not that they are the only ones because the so called "financial crisis" is the end event of 6 years or so of massive debt build up globally - including in Australia which has over $600 Billion of Net Foreign Debt.

Our lending institutions hold that debt, which is why the Financial Index has been discounted as it has been (and banks globally virtually nationalised to survive - so that the Bill of Exchange Act retains currency) - and the highly leveraged entities have also suffered with many such as Westpoint, Fincorp, ABC Learning etc. etc. etc. failing.

Don't be seduced by the assets - also look at the Liability side of the Balance Sheet, and then the ability to service those liabilities and accrue Shareholder Funds thru profit retention.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

TTT, I've read those last two posts a couple of times, and can't understand why you're referring to Telstra Dome as a White Elephant?

I don't know what their revenue streams are, but unless they're losing money and in need of being propped up - and doing a deal with another airline that in my view is within their rights does not count as being "propped up" - then they're a viable business.

I'm also at a loss as to your Collingwood "swimming naked" comment. Their assetts turned out to be bad investments, but it wasn't a reduction in discretional spend that killed them, it was that they didn't create viable revenue streams, even before the financial crisis.

I'm not having a go, from reading of your posts elsewhere, I assume you know what you're talking about in these areas... as do I, and I'm wondering if you could shed some more light?

Thanks

[To the top]

Debt mate, DEBT.

If you borrow everything, and have no hard earned dollars of your own invested into a purchase, why should you enjoy a return?

Be an easy world wouldn't it? Getting "rich" on someone else's money.

BUT, you can survive for a time in a certain climate, and that is what we have had over the past 4 or 5 years (and the reason the RBA was hiking interest rates - to slow Credit Growth and debt fuelled inflation), then the forced sellers emerge because they can not service the Debt and the lenders come a calling - mind you, the lender does money too because the asset does not sell for what was paid for it!

Hence where the share prices of our lending institutions and "Millionaire factory" Investment Banks are heading.

Because their assets are the money they have lent.

Collingwood borrowed full to buy the Leasehold of a couple of hotels and now, as forced sellers because the level of debt meant they could not trade at profit, they have found the Leaseholds are worth a cool $8 Million less than they paid for them.


You tip people upside down and shake them by the ankles to find out what drops out - then you know how rich they really are.

[loris]

Debt mate, DEBT.

You tip people upside down and shake them by the ankles to find out what drops out - then you know how rich they really are.

So has always been, and will always be eh ttt?

[saintbrat]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 42,00.html

DOCKLANDS Stadium's sponsorship deal with Etihad Airways is understood to be $5 million a year - $2 million better than other offers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

any way we can get them involved in the ' sand' beach club"

Despite threats that the clubs and AFL would refuse to refer to the dome as Etihad Stadium, the airline said it was "strongly committed" to Victoria and sports fans.

"We believe that our investment will bring tangible benefits to sport," a spokesman said.