Saints in Milne legal funds row

[kosifantutti]

After re-reading my post, fair comment dragit.

That's why Jigging Saint is held in such high esteem on here.
How many of us can review something we said and admit we got something wrong?

Plugger66 and BigMart.

It's just that neither of them ever get anything wrong.

[plugger66]

My question would be is why do we always get nothing stories. Maybe these nothing sories having something in it. To me its doesnt look a big story but I also dont think you can blame the papers. It was started by one of our supporters. Again.

[SemperFidelis]

Until someone actually demonstrates how it is said that the club promoted or encouraged this, I regard it as an unfortunate beat-up. Nowhere is it suggested that the club gave out sponsor or coterie names or details, or encouraged the players to undertake this on Milne's behalf.

Some senior players at the club appear to have contacted people that they know, and presumably assumed shared their sentiments. That is an understandable but unfortunate error of judgment. I wish they knew better, but they are footy players, not media advisors.

It is unfortunate that one of those approached (who it seems was not offended by the call) has forwarded that to another, who has seen fit to leak it to the media. It is unfortunate that the players did not have the foresight to see that that was a possibility. But it is frankly shameful that this unknown beneficiary of an unwanted email saw fit to share that with the media rather than the club first, if only to check. Self aggrandisement. Pathetic. Eastern gave a great summary of the two main issues. Plugger is also right; don't blame the papers for reporting it when it gets served up on a platter with a "quotable quote" to boot. But the editorial goes too far. Unless someone can demonstrate that the board or the executive were aware of the plan and tacitly accepted or encouraged it, they can put their sharpened stakes down.

If the board or the executive did do this, I despair at their lack of foresight, and they can and should be called to account. The AGM will be a hotbed of intrigue. But, like Milne, in the interim, I will afford them the presumption of innocence.

[plugger66]

After re-reading my post, fair comment dragit.

That's why Jigging Saint is held in such high esteem on here.
How many of us can review something we said and admit we got something wrong?

Plugger66 and BigMart.

It's just that neither of them ever get anything wrong.

Are you on drugs? I gat many things wrong. Wish others would admit it as much as I do. Funny what people imagine and what is fact on here. Talk about taking things to seriously. Why would any person care if they are wrong?

[maverick]

My question would be is why do we always get nothing stories. Maybe these nothing sories having something in it. To me its doesnt look a big story but I also dont think you can blame the papers. It was started by one of our supporters. Again.

Agree, find the problem and toss the sponsorship/coterie member

[mr six o'clock]

With the way milne's been portayed in the media for the last 5 years , I think the judical system will be able to find a unbiased jury !
You couldn't pick any saints supporters
Every other afl supporter's hate him
That's probably 85 - 90% of the state .

That will only leave the broader asian and some minor ethnic community's who have no idea what afl is .

[Con Gorozidis]

My question would be is why do we always get nothing stories. Maybe these nothing sories having something in it. To me its doesnt look a big story but I also dont think you can blame the papers. It was started by one of our supporters. Again.

Sorry but I think St Igmata nailed it for me.

You cant blame the sponsors or supporters or media for this.
The players involved have shown an immense lack of awareness and failure to separate personal from professional. It is an abuse of privelege.
If milnes real mates(not groupies and hangers on) want to help him out then thats great. They should do so in private.

[St.Roly]

Surely we have a PR department that should vet things like this?
Not prepared to accept the excuse that players did it off their own bat without consulting the club.
Serious questions need to be asked of our "leadership group", surely one amongst them would have questioned the PR implications.

You have demonstrated in a number of your comments in this thread, that you have no regard for the presumption of innocence, no interest in the concept of a fair trial and indulge in a 'mob rule' mentality. If you are ever sellected for jury duty, please decline. In the meantime please get off your hysterical high horse.

Where was your regard for the presumption of innocence when, in another thread concerning this case, you named a former member of the bench and called him corrupt?

Secondly, your earlier comment that an "innocent" verdict (actually "not guilty") would demonstrate that Milne had been the subject of a false complaint is patently wrong. Consent appears to be the major issue in this case. It would be open to a jury to find that Milne held a genuine belief that the woman was consenting (ie he thought she knew it was him not Joey) and therefore acquit. Such a finding is not mutually exclusive of the possibility that the woman herself may not have felt that she was consenting (ie she in fact mistakenly thought it was Joey). A complaint made by a woman holding that belief cannot and should not be labelled "false".

[satchmo]

It would be open to a jury to find that Milne held a genuine belief that the woman was consenting (ie he thought she knew it was him not Joey) and therefore acquit. Such a finding is not mutually exclusive of the possibility that the woman herself may not have felt that she was consenting (ie she in fact mistakenly thought it was Joey). A complaint made by a woman holding that belief cannot and should not be labelled "false".

Herein lies the difficulty in this case.

There will only ever be one person that knows whether Milne is guilty.

[thejiggingsaint]

A reasoned and sensible post on the subject Satchmo. In some respects, IF there was interference in the original investigation by a Police officer "sympathetic" to the Saints, then that officer has done nothing except compound the "perception of guilt" that is held by a huge proportion of the public, instead of protecting his "presumption of innocence". And this sorry saga has dragged on for all concerned.
Tragic really.

[kosifantutti]

I gat many things wrong.

I was wrong. Yes you do.

[supersaints]

Not sure who doctor Tim is but this article on AFL news has to be close to slander , the club should not sit back and let dickwits like this get away with writing crap like this.
No other club would stand by and let this happen, imagine if had been about Fat Eddies side!


The St Kilda Football Club is a marketer's nightmare. Since the end of last season it has sacked a coach, tried to set a dwarf on fire, and lost a player for taking a banned supplement.

Now The Sunday Age has revealed senior players have approached the club's Halo Coterie group for funds to cover Stephen Milne's defence against rape charges. The club's board was aware of the approaches but not actively involved. Nonetheless, it has not attempted to stop the players.

The right of individuals to contribute to a person's defence in criminal or civil proceedings is not in question here. That's a matter of individual choice.

So, too, is the right of an institution such as St Kilda. But it's a risky strategy, especially given the club's very patchy track record.

Over the past couple of years, the Saints have managed to play in grand finals. It was defeated narrowly by the Cats in 2009 and Collingwood the following year.

But the club has been also embroiled in the 'St Kilda schoolgirl' affair. When the girl involved, Kim Duthie, posted far from flattering photographs of players on social media, the club went into over-drive. It threatened to sue the street-smart kid and with some justification.

The shots of Nick Dal Santo in a pre-masturbation pose, and Zac Dawson holding a condom wrapper next to his penis, were far from flattering for a so-called elite football club's image.

But men will be boys, especially when let loose for a bit of male-bonding in Miami or some other US party town.

Throughout the 1980s the club had built a solid reputation for partying rather than playing. Though St Kilda had a fine side in the 1990s, and played off in the 1997 grand final, the party taint stuck. It wasn't helped by some unsavoury and well publicised incidents.

For example, in 2004 the club's star full forward, Fraser Gehrig, urinated on a woman's leg while on a pub binge. Gehrig later defended himself saying she only got the "splashback".

The partying taint turned grubbier in 2009 with rape charges brought against the newly recruited Andrew Lovett. The talented Lovett had just joined St Kilda from Essendon, but he had form in other areas.

A year before he was fined for breaching an intervention order against his former girlfriend. St Kilda captain, Nick Riewoldt, sledged him about it when the two opposed each other during the 2008 season.

By late 2009 they were teammates – or so it seemed. This changed when Lovett joined his new club mates for an end-of-year celebratory 'piss-up' at Richmond's Royal Saxon Hotel. By the end of the evening, he was facing rape allegations. On this occasion the coteries weren't called in to lend support. The club swiftly cut Lovett from the playing list and his teammates dropped him like the proverbial hot spud.

Lovett was subsequently cleared of the charge in court but his footy career was shot.

Also involved in the incident was Jason Gram. The alleged rape had taken place in Gram's Port Melbourne apartment. From the evidence presented it detailed footy's murky world of casual sexual engagement and did little to enhance the club's PR image.

The court heard how some St Kilda players stepped over the distraught women as she lay slumped across Gram's hallway. She was apparently between the playing group and a fridge full of beer. One player asked Lovett did he "chop her." Another angrily rebuked Lovett for "bringing the club down", while Gram confessed his initial instinct on hearing the woman's charge was to call his manager rather than the police.

Gram has since left the club. In October 2012 he too violated an intervention order brought against him by a woman and was sacked.

The Milne-Montagna 2004 'family-day' romp was just another in St Kilda's rather sordid and sorry past. Revelations of St Kilda players approaching the ironically named Halo Coterie do little to bolster the club's image.

Indeed, The Sunday Age's coupling of the players' approach with Milne's 'footy sl*t' remark suggests St Kilda has much to do to address perceptions – rightly or wrongly – that it has a misogynistic culture.

The AFL's reputation could also suffer. The response of media manager, Patrick Keane, was lame to say the least.

In stating "the community must respect the legal process", Keane and the AFL missed an opportunity to declare their position on the wisdom of clubs and players soliciting funds from business coterie groups or other well-heeled sources to finance criminal cases.

In this case, the right response should have been 'no means no', especially given St Kilda's sorry past and the welcome social push to bring attention to the problem of violence against women.

(Dr Tom Heenan lectures in sport and Australian Studies at Monash University)

[Con Gorozidis]

Surely we have a PR department that should vet things like this?
Not prepared to accept the excuse that players did it off their own bat without consulting the club.
Serious questions need to be asked of our "leadership group", surely one amongst them would have questioned the PR implications.

You have demonstrated in a number of your comments in this thread, that you have no regard for the presumption of innocence, no interest in the concept of a fair trial and indulge in a 'mob rule' mentality. If you are ever sellected for jury duty, please decline. In the meantime please get off your hysterical high horse.

Where was your regard for the presumption of innocence when, in another thread concerning this case, you named a former member of the bench and called him corrupt?

Secondly, your earlier comment that an "innocent" verdict (actually "not guilty") would demonstrate that Milne had been the subject of a false complaint is patently wrong. Consent appears to be the major issue in this case. It would be open to a jury to find that Milne held a genuine belief that the woman was consenting (ie he thought she knew it was him not Joey) and therefore acquit. Such a finding is not mutually exclusive of the possibility that the woman herself may not have felt that she was consenting (ie she in fact mistakenly thought it was Joey). A complaint made by a woman holding that belief cannot and should not be labelled "false".

Pretty obvious (from this and previous posts) St Roly that you are a man of the law - Interestingly if the incident took place in WA - The 'reasonably held belief' defence could not be used by SM and the issue of consent would rest with the victims evidence.

Anyway off topic.

'

[Con Gorozidis]

Not sure who doctor Tim

(Dr Tom Heenan lectures in sport and Australian Studies at Monash University)

Dont want be a pedant but there is no such thing as 'slander' anymore and he hasnt said anything untrue.

I cant find what his phd is in - seems to be some kind of sports history buff - so a pretty mickey mouse 'dr' if ever I saw one (that probably is slanderous right there funnily enough ).

If you want a laugh look at the phds he is supervising

http://www.monash.edu.au/research/peopl ... 9&pid=3590

One of them is

Grappling with change: the tag team of professional wrestling and media transformation.

[plugger66]

I gat many things wrong.

I was wrong. Yes you do.

I admit it. I got gat wrong. See it isnt that hard. Others should follow.

[Moods]

Not sure who doctor Tim is but this article on AFL news has to be close to slander , the club should not sit back and let dickwits like this get away with writing crap like this.
No other club would stand by and let this happen, imagine if had been about Fat Eddies side!

Haven't reposted his article - but how is it slander? It's not pleasant reading through everything - but which parts aren't true?

My overwhelming feeling about the Saints lately is that they aren't run like a professional footy team. The players act like blokes do at a local footy club. They do things that local footballers do, except they're not local footballers. They are professional athletes, constantly scrutinised. The dwarf episode was a classic example. Boys having a piss up with a bit of dark humour mixed in. Players approaching influential supporters to help their mate out on a rape charge. Photographs on footy trips depicting guys in compromising positions - not x rated, just embarrassing. Not having the good sense to delete the photos after the fun has finished though. All things that ordinarily no-one gives a stuff about. I really wonder if the penny will drop for some of these guys. 8 times bitten twice shy?

[thejiggingsaint]

It's sad to see all this sort of negative stuff occurring while Nick Reiwoldt is captain. It must be embarrassing for our champion to see this happening on his "watch". Leads to me speculating whether it would have happened with someone like Lenny Hayes.

[saintspremiers]

It's sad to see all this sort of negative stuff occurring while Nick Reiwoldt is captain. It must be embarrassing for our champion to see this happening on his "watch". Leads to me speculating whether it would have happened with someone like Lenny Hayes.

interesting observation. Rooey is a great player and leader but on the other hand Lenny is a cleanskin and never flopped the chop on camera.

[joffaboy]

Wow attacked on all sides for suggesting that supporters are fickle.

Who was the coterie supporter who blabbed to the press? Is that not giving up Milne and his friends who are trying to raise money for a trial that is irrevocably tainted and will not be fair. How can Milne get a fair trail in Melbourne?

To ensure he gets the best defence will cost 100's of thousands of $$. So friend ask contacts at the club to VOLUNTARILY help out. Was anyone pressured? Forced to fork out? Were anyone on here forced to fork out money or was asked.

I said in the previous post, up to the individual to decide where their loyalties lay. Convenient to lay into Milne now he is gone in my opinion.

Oh and Con, not with us or against us. If Milne is found guilty of rape, then he deserves whatever he gets, until then however I believe in the presumption of innocence.

Unfortunately most of Melbourne demand a lynching of Milne therefore the trail cannot possibly by fair in this city. This is the reason he needs help, this is the reason his true friends are trying to get money for his defence, and this is why, in my opinion some supporters are fickle and take the moral high ground.

Easy and convenient to make this a parlour game and an abstract argument when it is not your life, and your familys future in the balance.

And SainterK, really, rude to you? How? By asking for one piece of corroborating evidence that the players run the club. Do you always get so upset when asked to verify your outrageous claims? Or do you use the defence that your delicate feelings have been hurt by the request? Either way, pretty poor response. If you cant prove your meme, you should really chose something else to ponder.

[Moods]

JoffaBoy

Who is 'laying into Milne' on here? I have not read one post where one person is hoping he's found guilty. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a post where anyone has expressed that they believe he IS guilty.

Milne and his mates would be in the top 1% in terms of earning capacity in this town. You make him sound like he's just about to go on welfare. Yes, he'll take a hit, but sometimes thems the consequences of foolish/reckless behaviour. It's a private matter completely unrelated to the club. In fact the only thing connected to the club is that he was part of the club when it happened, and the club as well as Milne suffered as a result.....

Why can't his wealthy mates chip in? Why does it have to be rich supporters? As soon as any person is asked, a sense of obligation to help is accompanied whether overtly or covertly. Ever felt bad closing your door on a charity worker requesting money for a worthy cause?

I am confident that Milne will get a fair trial. If Lovett can get a fair trial (and his sounded far worse) then I'm happy that Milne will too. Hate to say it, but not everyone gives a stuff about footy in this town. In fact, the majority don't. Most take a passing interest. I would estimate in a work place of 100 ppl, 10 would be mad footy supporters, 40 would follow a team and maybe attend a couple of games a year (if they're lucky) 20 would never go, but state a team they support, and the rest are completely disinterested. That's about the level in the work place I'm at anyway and we run footy tipping and supercoach comps.

[magnifisaint]

Why doesn't Saintsational pass around the hat also?
No compulsion to contribute, but I'd chuck in 5 bucks

[joffaboy]

Why doesn't Saintsational pass around the hat also?
No compulsion to contribute, but I'd chuck in 5 bucks

Cause it would be on the front page of the paper inferring we support rapists.

[saintspremiers]

Why doesn't Saintsational pass around the hat also?
No compulsion to contribute, but I'd chuck in 5 bucks

Got a better idea.

Let's pass the hat around to help fund or standalone reserves team instead.

[stinger]

thank god i got sick of reading in this thread very early on.....otherwise i would have wasted a good 15 minutes of my life reading crap.....

[gringo]

I hope the Essendon asking for money for legal costs is put on the front page of the paper. A club sanctioned illegal activity was exposed and the club has sanctioned the fund raising from high profiole and every day supporters and coterie folks. Hmmm why is that not made more of. In fact Essendon has just signed the aircon people after this terrible error ofjudgement.

Maybe until a coterie member stick themselves in the paper in outrage nothing will happen.