$19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844657Post Sanctorum »

Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 2:20pm
So why does BackFromUSA say we can avoid the AFL gaining full control of our club if we manage our finances through a donation system. What is he concerned about to make such a suggestion. And I think you've missed the fact that there will be a different set of rules, a different regime if you like after this crisis, if we are forced into it, most of what you wrote is based on the old rules and old regime.

The situation we find ourselves in is similar to why the fed government changed last week the rules on foreign ownership to scrutinise foreign countries swooping in like vultures to exploit our stressed economy.

If there are clubs 4 clubs (possibly 6) allowed to break away and form thier own rules and tell the AFL to get stuffed then we should be forming an alliance with the other clubs and seeking an independent loan from a bank.

If the old rules and the old regime was working ok then why the need to change it, why can't the AFL keep propping up the clubs under the old system, the AFL was a highly, highly profitable business before the crisis, why do they need full control, they should be able to secure loan without then need to take full control of the clubs.

And another thing, anyone know how much of a pay cut executive managers have taken?
I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:

"I write to you today as part of our commitment to provide regular updates as we confront one of the biggest challenges in St Kilda’s history.

This is a fight we all face: our administration, coaches, players, Board, and you, our loyal members.

We need the support of our members now more than ever if we are to emerge from this period as a competitive force in the AFL.

The club has been required to take unprecedented steps to navigate the financial impact of this global pandemic.

The vast majority of our workforce has been stood down, while a skeleton staff remain working on significantly reduced wages.

Our players have committed to a minimum 50 per cent pay cut for the remainder of the season, even when games resume, and a 70 per cent cut if the shut-down period extends beyond 31 May.

They are currently staying connected via regular online video calls and working hard to remain fit and healthy to ensure they are ready to go when the season restarts.

We have recently completed discussions with the AFL regarding the league’s COVID-19 crisis financial support model for clubs.

The AFL has moved swiftly to leverage the strength of its balance sheet to provide security to the 18 clubs, all of which will be massively affected by this crisis.

As part of the model to secure the competition, all clubs will now receive the same base distribution from the AFL – an amount which will cover the majority of each club’s player payment costs.

Previously agreed distributions allocated to clubs like St Kilda based on competitive balance principles (such as the fixture and stadium deals) will no longer be allocated beyond amounts already received.

And for the remainder of 2020, clubs requiring additional financial support from the AFL will need to acquire those funds in the form of a loan, rather than a distribution.

At the risk of making this email a little longer than I would ordinarily write, I want to provide a clear picture of what this means for your club.

Our player payments essentially account for approximately one third of our annual costs.

Then there are the payments for our coaches, broader football staff, commercial operations, administration and operating expenses covering a host of things from travel and player uniforms to IT licences and building maintenance.

Most of these expenses are set from the start of the year and then we rely upon income from membership, sponsorship, match receipts and the like, which is centred on the AFL season.

St Kilda already operates one of the leanest cost bases in the AFL, and this base will significantly reduce via the forced staffing changes referred to above.

But the reality is that without matches being played, we are now more reliant than ever before on our members to ensure our club is not forced to extend our AFL debt to new heights.

We would all prefer that we didn’t have $12m debt (roughly half of which is with the AFL and the other half with our bank) going into this current crisis.

But broadly maintaining, rather than shrinking, this debt over the past 4 years, was the result of the club prioritising returning home and building world-class headquarters in Moorabbin.

The position of strength that RSEA Park provides for the next 30 years is just starting to be realised. We recruited extremely well in the off-season, signed several new partners and were reconnecting with our community in St Kilda’s heartland.

It seems likes years ago now, but it has only been a matter of weeks since we came together for our first ever AFLW match and our pre-season men’s game at RSEA Park. They were special moments as thousands of you packed into the ground to cheer on our team and loudly sing our song.

The club had also secured the support of 43,000 members in record speed and was marching towards 50,000 for the first time in our history.

We had grounds for optimism, before the crisis hit, that we would start to emerge as a competitive force on the field and become significantly stronger financially which would allow us to pay down our debt.

Things have obviously changed but we can fight back. The extent to which we receive continued support from our members will now largely determine how we emerge from this crisis.

My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have already offered to assist the club, and sent in thousands of messages of support.

The sense of belonging and connection that binds us as St Kilda people is certainly alive and well.

The club also acknowledges that there will be members facing significant financial hardship and we will support you, as you have supported us in the past. Our membership team is available to discuss this with you should you require.

But I want to reiterate that by maintaining your membership (and I’m aware that our monthly instalments program is still operating as scheduled) you will be directly shaping our future.

The focus of us all must be ensuring we do far more than just survive.

Simply surviving to make up the numbers isn’t what any of us want for St Kilda.

We need to emerge in a position to compete, to recapture our momentum and return to regular finals football with an eye firmly on the prize of our second premiership.

That is the job in front of us all, to continue the legacy of strength through loyalty.

We believe that 2020 still offers so much for our footy club. Our players and coaches remain as committed as ever, and the experience and smarts within our football department will be an advantage as we confront a very different football season.

Together, I am certain we will rise to this challenge."


Whilst full particulars have yet to be spelt out my take on this information is that the AFL is tightening the fiscal strings in an endeavour for clubs to do more with less - I recently saw a grab on TV of the Essendon coaches box and there would have been 20 or more support staff sitting there manning screens and laptops not unlike Mission Control at Cape Canaveral launching a spacecraft to the moon!

The devil is going to be in the detail but I contend it will not be in the AFL's interest to make any radical decisions that would risk clubs going to the wall, quite the opposite, but the days of the gravy trains are now over and all clubs will have to be lean and mean.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844660Post ace »

A double degree chartered accountant at KPMG now getting a total package of $62,000, still working massive unpaid overtime but now from home.
Not me I am comfortably retired.
These players take a 50% cut and maybe 70% later.
They don't have any idea what a real wage is.
When their wages are cut to $62,000 a year then I will chip in.
My membership is all I am donating.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844661Post bigred »

So I wonder how the AFL is handling our current loan structure.
With any luck the bank isnt screwing us and we could perhaps just be covering interest?

Ten full time staff you would think maximum?



We are not going to have a pot to piss in after this.

And before Covid we borrowed said pot to piss in it.

I reckon we will end up a few more million in the red to the AFL.

I would rather owe money to a bank than that bunch of ****.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844663Post Secret Kiel »

Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844712Post Sanctorum »

Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844722Post Secret Kiel »

Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844728Post Nick_BlueNRG »

It amazes me that supporters don't/can't commit to $19 per month for 19 months to save OUR club yet spend at least $40 per week on buying stupid coffees. I have an idea, when we all go back to work, how about you make your coffee at work where it is free. That way you will be easily able to afford $19 per month for 19 months.

BackFromUSA, I'm in. I don't want St Kilda to fold. How do we get the ball rolling?????


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844736Post asiu »

push it up a hill


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844936Post asiu »

all right then newNick

lets push this fucker up the hill
and we’ll prove the theorem

how much are you willing to donate
as a one off payment
via Saintsational and as from ‘Saintsational’
to the Club

(regardless of any other fundraising for the Saints you may have already /may participate in)


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844945Post Nick_BlueNRG »

asiu wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 5:09pm all right then newNick

lets push this fucker up the hill
and we’ll prove the theorem

how much are you willing to donate
as a one off payment
via Saintsational and as from ‘Saintsational’
to the Club

(regardless of any other fundraising for the Saints you may have already /may participate in)
I'm prepared to do the $19 per month for 19 months and I am prepared to donate my time to get it off the ground.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844947Post asiu »

not pushing very hard are ya !!

you donate something decent
and i’ll match it

then i’ll harass some of the boys in here to also match it

lets get this thing moving


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844950Post saynta »

I'm in for a cool 20.00 per month, as long as my tenants don't stop paying rent


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844952Post Scollop »

Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844955Post Joffa Burns »

Scollop wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:19pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions
Wow scollop, you are on a roll at the moment.

I agree on the billion dollar companies paying tax, but your call on franking credits and negative gearing is ridiculous.

How is franking credits double dipping?
Do you want to stop company directors paying themselves in franked dividends as well?
The company pays the tax and you pay the top up between the company tax and the marginal rate, how is that double dipping?

So you want self funded retirees who are no burden on society to pay more tax so the useless welfare bums, druggies and losers can continue to be a drain on society, yes the same self funded retirees who paid tax all their working life.

Geez I get pissed off with self entitled Australians who think the country owes them a living and they want to drag down those who have actually contributed to society throughout their working lives.

Who do you think keeps this country moving? It's the SME operators and they are the ones who you want to stop owning rental properties and double tax on the way out in their retirement.

Shame scollop, shame.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844962Post Secret Kiel »

Joffa Burns wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 9:47pm
Scollop wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:19pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions
Wow scollop, you are on a roll at the moment.

I agree on the billion dollar companies paying tax, but your call on franking credits and negative gearing is ridiculous.

How is franking credits double dipping?
Do you want to stop company directors paying themselves in franked dividends as well?
The company pays the tax and you pay the top up between the company tax and the marginal rate, how is that double dipping?

So you want self funded retirees who are no burden on society to pay more tax so the useless welfare bums, druggies and losers can continue to be a drain on society, yes the same self funded retirees who paid tax all their working life.

Geez I get pissed off with self entitled Australians who think the country owes them a living and they want to drag down those who have actually contributed to society throughout their working lives.

Who do you think keeps this country moving? It's the SME operators and they are the ones who you want to stop owning rental properties and double tax on the way out in their retirement.

Shame scollop, shame.
Hey JB just on negative gearing, do you think this crisis will force a reform? This crisis has turned it into a house of cards as best I can tell. Nearly everyone I speak to that has accessed NG as an investment and/or tax reduction instrument is losing sleep over the real possibility of mass bankruptcy and destroying retirement plans.

Multiple properties purchased on minimum deposit and interest only loans with tenants unable to pay rent and property values dropping by up to 30%.

The perfect storm.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844969Post saynta »

Joffa Burns wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 9:47pm
Scollop wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:19pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions
Wow scollop, you are on a roll at the moment.

I agree on the billion dollar companies paying tax, but your call on franking credits and negative gearing is ridiculous.

How is franking credits double dipping?
Do you want to stop company directors paying themselves in franked dividends as well?
The company pays the tax and you pay the top up between the company tax and the marginal rate, how is that double dipping?

So you want self funded retirees who are no burden on society to pay more tax so the useless welfare bums, druggies and losers can continue to be a drain on society, yes the same self funded retirees who paid tax all their working life.

Geez I get pissed off with self entitled Australians who think the country owes them a living and they want to drag down those who have actually contributed to society throughout their working lives.

Who do you think keeps this country moving? It's the SME operators and they are the ones who you want to stop owning rental properties and double tax on the way out in their retirement.

Shame scollop, shame.

Excellent post.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844979Post Sanctorum »

I posted this earlier today, but it probably fits better under this heading...

In today's Oz there is a report about Essendon FC deciding to remain independent of AFL handouts and among comments from their President Lindsay Tanner the following is pertinent to this debate:

As part of the AFL funding position moving forward, clubs are required to determine whether they will require additional funding from the AFL and, as such, become positioned as an ‘assisted club’.

“Assisted clubs will be required to work closely with the AFL around in-depth club reporting and will also have to stringently work with AFL-approved parameters with respect to expense management.

“And although the financial backing of the assisted club is guaranteed by the AFL, it is not lost on us that a significant portion of the club’s independence would be compromised
.”

I am still a little confused about the reservations commentators have about the financial constraints on the "assisted clubs" - what are the independent clubs able to actually do in terms of gaining off-field or on-field advantages by avoiding the management of expenses by the AFL. Given that every club is limited to the same expenditures for players salaries and football departments etc, can someone please outline the practical problems St Kilda FC will face under this scheme?


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844982Post Secret Kiel »

Sanctorum wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 1:02pm
Given that every club is limited to the same expenditures for players salaries and football departments etc.
The control by the AFL will be similar to that executed by a licensed insolvency practitioner engaged when a company becomes insolvent. They are not builders, they are wreckers, they are the meanest and nastiest, emotionally devoid dream smashers who are called upon to rise up from the bilges of hatred to do the dirty work that people with hearts would never be able to do. They are the starved and ravaged pitbull owned by bankers, lawers and accountants and CEOs.

Now back to your question, imagine this, a pitbull is pouring through the detailed accounts of the 12 assisted clubs and sees that lowly performing business unit number 9 (aka The Saints) is engaging the services of an analytics consultant and determines that the cost is not justifiable for that business unit and AFL KPIs would be better serverd by relocating that resource over to business unit no 3 ( The Gold Coast Suns).

No justification needed, the real reason could be varied, it could be as simple as Gill gets a bonus if the GCS performs well.

It means that one central department is looking at all 12 clubs and making decisions based how to maximise the postion of the AFL and not what's necessarily the best for an individual club.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844983Post Secret Kiel »

A world recession/depression is a grandfinal for insolvency practitioners, it's what dreams are made of for the industry.

Ask yourself this, if the AFL was one of the most successful businesses in the country why did Gil see a need to force an administration-type control on the clubs, why couldn't the clubs be trusted to continue working well as a collective for so long now to reach annual turnovers of $800 million and $50 million NET profit. Where is all that money going?

A question I've asked myself is this, have the banks been more concerned about how the AFL has been managing the books and not the clubs. I suspected this is why Jeff Kennett is concerned.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844987Post SydneySainter »

Joffa Burns wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 9:47pm
Scollop wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:19pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions
Wow scollop, you are on a roll at the moment.

I agree on the billion dollar companies paying tax, but your call on franking credits and negative gearing is ridiculous.

How is franking credits double dipping?
Do you want to stop company directors paying themselves in franked dividends as well?
The company pays the tax and you pay the top up between the company tax and the marginal rate, how is that double dipping?

So you want self funded retirees who are no burden on society to pay more tax so the useless welfare bums, druggies and losers can continue to be a drain on society, yes the same self funded retirees who paid tax all their working life.

Geez I get pissed off with self entitled Australians who think the country owes them a living and they want to drag down those who have actually contributed to society throughout their working lives.

Who do you think keeps this country moving? It's the SME operators and they are the ones who you want to stop owning rental properties and double tax on the way out in their retirement.

Shame scollop, shame.
Not everyone on welfare are bums, druggies and losers.

Also, plenty of well-paid and self-entitled public servants still milk the public coffer for every tiny entitlement and kick up a stink the moment anyone suggests they can't fly themselves and their family business class to attend question time.


Until we have an administration that demands success and a playing group that bleeds for the guernsey, St. Kilda will just be a sh*tty football club.
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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844990Post Joffa Burns »

Secret Kiel wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 7:04am
Joffa Burns wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 9:47pm
Scollop wrote: Tue 14 Apr 2020 8:19pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:41pm
Sanctorum wrote: Fri 10 Apr 2020 12:00pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 7:15pm
Sanctorum wrote: Thu 09 Apr 2020 6:20pm

I dunno SK, you are suggesting that the AFL has some ulterior and/or sinister motive to radically change the way clubs operate and take over the day to day operations of its member clubs. Today's letter from Andrew Bassat is instructive:
I only glean 2 points from Bassett's letter, first one being the AFL has put forward a new model. The second point is please dont stop your automatic membership payments.

With regards to the new model, shouldn't we be asking for more transparency and requesting some more meat on the bone, especially considering there are now 6 clubs having rejected the proposed model. How can the competition be a level playing field if these 6 other clubs have a different set of rules.

A side interest, have the executive managers at clubs right up to Gil taken a wage reduction?
There is obviously a lot more information that has yet to be released. In fact is is more than likely that what the AFL is proposing is in essence a draft paper that the Commission will be discussing with the club presidents and CEOs before it is signed off on by all stakeholders. To this extent I think it is a bit premature for any of us to be able to pass judgement on the shape of the AFL post-Coveid-19. I for one am quite content to trust the St Kilda Board to handle this competently.

The same could probably also be said for how the Commonwealth government and the states plan to recover the Australian economy post this pandemic, though one thing is patently obvious, we're all going to feel some pain, taxes and charges are going to increase. At risk of starting another argument, raising the GST to 15% or thereabouts would raise more than enough in a few years in one foul swoop and seems to me to be the most straight forward and sensible course of action!
OR, we could start a discussion on reforming the capitalist model. Maybe instead of raising taxes we could start talking about over consumption and the associated debt.

Use the issue AFL clubs are facing right now as an example, they are a house of cards, credit cards to be precise, right at this very point in this crisis the clubs aren't so worried about members who pay for thier memberships with cash, that money is in the bank and that category of member might not become problematic to cashflow until renewals next year. What club officials are losing sleep over is the member who buys thier membership on automatic monthly payments taken from a credit account. These types of members are the ones that could impact imediate cash flow.

I think I'm right in saying Jeff Kennett templated the membership model at Hawthorn that took thier very low membership base to being the biggest though creative membership packages purchased on credit.

It would be really interesting to know what percentage of the club's 43 000 members can't pay for thier membership upfront with a one off cash payment.

In the recession/depression we have only just commenced, discretionary spending will be the casualty and the best clubs can hope for is that members who currently purchase thier membership with credit are still capable of spending thier welfare payments on non essential items.

I look forward to any government proposing rasing the GST, let alone to 15%.
If anyone can do it then Scotty from marketing is your man...

Your average PAYG employee who has to fork out after tax dollars will be hit with a double whammy. They’ll be paying 25-30% of their yearly salary in tax while those with the means and the backing of their accountants will be lucky to be forking out 5-10%.

Speaking of reforms...

I look forward to companies paying their fair share of tax if they are earning $Billions in revenue from sales in Australia.

I look forward to the tax rorts and welfare to the rich being abolished, such as negative gearing and the double dipping that occurs with franking credits. How ludicrous is a system that refunds money to someone who is asset rich in retirement and they pay next to zero tax, however through superannuation concessions and franking credits the rest of the community has to pay them a cheque every year?

I look forward to all the Cayman Island, British Virgin Island, and Bermuda based tax havens being abolished. The companies that run cruise ships have not only been making profits and avoiding tax with their subsidiaries in these tax havens, but they also avoid health and safety regulations from more stringent jurisdictions
Wow scollop, you are on a roll at the moment.

I agree on the billion dollar companies paying tax, but your call on franking credits and negative gearing is ridiculous.

How is franking credits double dipping?
Do you want to stop company directors paying themselves in franked dividends as well?
The company pays the tax and you pay the top up between the company tax and the marginal rate, how is that double dipping?

So you want self funded retirees who are no burden on society to pay more tax so the useless welfare bums, druggies and losers can continue to be a drain on society, yes the same self funded retirees who paid tax all their working life.

Geez I get pissed off with self entitled Australians who think the country owes them a living and they want to drag down those who have actually contributed to society throughout their working lives.

Who do you think keeps this country moving? It's the SME operators and they are the ones who you want to stop owning rental properties and double tax on the way out in their retirement.

Shame scollop, shame.
Hey JB just on negative gearing, do you think this crisis will force a reform? This crisis has turned it into a house of cards as best I can tell. Nearly everyone I speak to that has accessed NG as an investment and/or tax reduction instrument is losing sleep over the real possibility of mass bankruptcy and destroying retirement plans.

Multiple properties purchased on minimum deposit and interest only loans with tenants unable to pay rent and property values dropping by up to 30%.

The perfect storm.
Its only when the tide goes out that we see who was swimming naked - Warren Buffett

Personally I do not have enough knowledge or wide enough reach with people property investing to comment beyond my opinion.

First rule of thumb (I learnt the hard way) is to never make an investment decision based on it being a tax deduction. Remember the agri investments of the early 2000's?

At least in this (Covid-19) environment my understanding is the banks do not want royal commission like publicity and will be renegotiating loan terms over the next 1/4. With a tangible asset like property there is always a buyer at the right price and losses can be mitigated, I have an associate who had leveraged his property and business to invest in the share market and has seen his ($60M) portfolio value drop by over 50% rendering him bankrupt without the cash flow to pay the margin loan. There is not get out here as many of the funds invested in have been temporarily frozen.

My opinion is there will be no great change to NG ATO regulations but they will may constrain the property investment purchase by issuing banking measures such as increasing minimum equity and toughen up the approval criteria, which I guess is regulating so I'm contradicting myself.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1844999Post Secret Kiel »

Joffa Burns wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:39pm

My opinion is there will be no great change to NG ATO regulations but they will may constrain the property investment purchase by issuing banking measures such as increasing minimum equity and toughen up the approval criteria, which I guess is regulating so I'm contradicting myself.
I reckon that depends on how tragic this recession/depression cuts and how much the government has to absorb the financial mess it creates.

The NG handbook was written for an economic model that was thrown into the trashbin a few weeks ago, and for good measure some petrol was poured over it and then set on fire.


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1845004Post Joffa Burns »

Secret Kiel wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 5:38pm
Joffa Burns wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:39pm

My opinion is there will be no great change to NG ATO regulations but they will may constrain the property investment purchase by issuing banking measures such as increasing minimum equity and toughen up the approval criteria, which I guess is regulating so I'm contradicting myself.
I reckon that depends on how tragic this recession/depression cuts and how much the government has to absorb the financial mess it creates.

The NG handbook was written for an economic model that was thrown into the trashbin a few weeks ago, and for good measure some petrol was poured over it and then set on fire.
Yes, but it will be chicken feed compared to what they will be forking out in Jobkeeper and Jobseeker, will it get the attention?


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Re: $19 per month for 19 months ... your thoughts?

Post: # 1845012Post Secret Kiel »

Joffa Burns wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 7:52pm
Secret Kiel wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 5:38pm
Joffa Burns wrote: Wed 15 Apr 2020 3:39pm

My opinion is there will be no great change to NG ATO regulations but they will may constrain the property investment purchase by issuing banking measures such as increasing minimum equity and toughen up the approval criteria, which I guess is regulating so I'm contradicting myself.
I reckon that depends on how tragic this recession/depression cuts and how much the government has to absorb the financial mess it creates.

The NG handbook was written for an economic model that was thrown into the trashbin a few weeks ago, and for good measure some petrol was poured over it and then set on fire.
Yes, but it will be chicken feed compared to what they will be forking out in Jobkeeper and Jobseeker, will it get the attention?
Uncharted waters, so many issues have seeded from COVID-19 in the past three weeks, germination awaits us. Prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.


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