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Wayne42 wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 2:31pm
Good for us if we get Big Ben but i'm hoping he re-signs with the Suns, like any club in the AFL the Suns need to retain their developing players in order to progress.
They probably needed to keep Greenwood, too...But they screwed that up.
Compared to GWS, they have continually stuffed up themselves up. Their pinnacle was losing co-captains Lynch and May in the same trading period.
Hard to have any pity for them.
Was always going to be a tough gig. The Gold Coast is a soulless strip of commerce if ever I've seen one. Trying to plant AFL in there, in a rugby mad state was always going to be an uphill battle. I doubt they'll ever find any genuine sustained success.
Tougher than setting up the Melbourne Storm here in AFL mad Victoria?
The big difference to me between teh 2 scenarios is that the group behind Melbourne Storm were very good operators and seemed to know what they were doing.
I don't think we can say the same about those in charge of setting up the Suns.
I think that's partly it. But more so that ingrained in Melbourne's culture is the love of sport. The tribal culture of VFL/AFL may be significantly diluted from the days of suburban home grounds, but that cultural narrative of following a team through thick and thin with commitment still runs deep. The Gold Coast, as far as I can tell, has sfa sporting history or roots. Surfing, iron man maybe, but it hasn't got tribalism and committed team affiliation bred into it. It's sporting history is shallow and scanty at best. Challenging ground to try and plant the seeds of a foreign game into.
I’ll add to this… was a no BS set up right from the induction
...........
And endless praising and positive PR for something that stands for nothing, that no one of any value/quality is interested or passionate in and is drowned in money and advantages whilst others like us have to do more with less
It’s like a novelty team
At least GWS was smart enough to actually get some ppl there that were passionate about the club
Agree with all of what you wrote Skeptic, especially this bit. GC stands for nothing except the commercial market grab, TV dollar, franchise that they are. SFA connection to any cultural base or recognisable identity that says, "This is us".
They're a joke and will remain so flag or not.
I have to be honest, I am not interested in this story at all because there is a far more likelihood that many will end up being disappointed thus time next year.
However, two factors will play into our chances of luring him from the Gold Coast.
1) However Gold Coast go next year, if they have a half decent season or better, he may see better opportunity for success with the Suns than with us.
2) Coach, if the Suns have an average season and the AFL swings it so Clarkson takes over reigns there, again he will stay with the Suns.
But as I said, it is all fanciful speculation for now and I'll believe he's a St.Kilda player when I see him put pen to paper to a contract with us, however, don't get too excited by this possibility as there is a hell of a long way to go.
Wayne42 wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 2:31pm
Good for us if we get Big Ben but i'm hoping he re-signs with the Suns, like any club in the AFL the Suns need to retain their developing players in order to progress.
They probably needed to keep Greenwood, too...But they screwed that up.
Compared to GWS, they have continually stuffed up themselves up. Their pinnacle was losing co-captains Lynch and May in the same trading period.
Hard to have any pity for them.
Was always going to be a tough gig. The Gold Coast is a soulless strip of commerce if ever I've seen one. Trying to plant AFL in there, in a rugby mad state was always going to be an uphill battle. I doubt they'll ever find any genuine sustained success.
Tougher than setting up the Melbourne Storm here in AFL mad Victoria?
The big difference to me between teh 2 scenarios is that the group behind Melbourne Storm were very good operators and seemed to know what they were doing.
I don't think we can say the same about those in charge of setting up the Suns.
I think that's partly it. But more so that ingrained in Melbourne's culture is the love of sport. The tribal culture of VFL/AFL may be significantly diluted from the days of suburban home grounds, but that cultural narrative of following a team through thick and thin with commitment still runs deep. The Gold Coast, as far as I can tell, has sfa sporting history or roots. Surfing, iron man maybe, but it hasn't got tribalism and committed team affiliation bred into it. It's sporting history is shallow and scanty at best. Challenging ground to try and plant the seeds of a foreign game into.
I’ll add to this… was a no BS set up right from the induction
They picked a unique colour scheme and set up to something Melbourne has always banged on about (4 seasons in a day - not that one cares that much), the mascot kind of looked like a Bushranger, which was more well thought of at the time
United all of Victoria under one banner
AFL style song that is pretty decent
Nice little ground
A bunch of serious NRL players of the time… struggle to remember them all now but Lazarus, Kimmorley, Geyer, Bay, Kearns
Very clear message from the outside that this team was here to be a success and no bull$&@ing around
Compare that to GC - lame colours, ridiculously cutesy BS logo - we’re the Suns… there’s one sun here
Niche market
Cringe worthy theme song
Plethora of absurd advantages in picks/home games, salary cap etc to gift them a flag
Paid millions of dollars to buy the biggest star of the comp who clearly saw the whole thing as nothing more than a cash grab and left when he could
That joke recruiting of Folau
And endless praising and positive PR for something that stands for nothing, that no one of any value/quality is interested or passionate in and is drowned in money and advantages whilst others like us have to do more with less
It’s like a novelty team
At least GWS was smart enough to actually get some ppl there that were passionate about the club
Wayne42 wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 2:31pm
Good for us if we get Big Ben but i'm hoping he re-signs with the Suns, like any club in the AFL the Suns need to retain their developing players in order to progress.
They probably needed to keep Greenwood, too...But they screwed that up.
Compared to GWS, they have continually stuffed up themselves up. Their pinnacle was losing co-captains Lynch and May in the same trading period.
Hard to have any pity for them.
Was always going to be a tough gig. The Gold Coast is a soulless strip of commerce if ever I've seen one. Trying to plant AFL in there, in a rugby mad state was always going to be an uphill battle. I doubt they'll ever find any genuine sustained success.
Tougher than setting up the Melbourne Storm here in AFL mad Victoria?
The big difference to me between teh 2 scenarios is that the group behind Melbourne Storm were very good operators and seemed to know what they were doing.
I don't think we can say the same about those in charge of setting up the Suns.
I think that's partly it. But more so that ingrained in Melbourne's culture is the love of sport. The tribal culture of VFL/AFL may be significantly diluted from the days of suburban home grounds, but that cultural narrative of following a team through thick and thin with commitment still runs deep. The Gold Coast, as far as I can tell, has sfa sporting history or roots. Surfing, iron man maybe, but it hasn't got tribalism and committed team affiliation bred into it. It's sporting history is shallow and scanty at best. Challenging ground to try and plant the seeds of a foreign game into.
I’ll add to this… was a no BS set up right from the induction
They picked a unique colour scheme and set up to something Melbourne has always banged on about (4 seasons in a day - not that one cares that much), the mascot kind of looked like a Bushranger, which was more well thought of at the time
United all of Victoria under one banner
AFL style song that is pretty decent
Nice little ground
A bunch of serious NRL players of the time… struggle to remember them all now but Lazarus, Kimmorley, Geyer, Bay, Kearns
Very clear message from the outside that this team was here to be a success and no bull$&@ing around
Compare that to GC - lame colours, ridiculously cutesy BS logo - we’re the Suns… there’s one sun here
Niche market
Cringe worthy theme song
Plethora of absurd advantages in picks/home games, salary cap etc to gift them a flag
Paid millions of dollars to buy the biggest star of the comp who clearly saw the whole thing as nothing more than a cash grab and left when he could
That joke recruiting of Folau
And endless praising and positive PR for something that stands for nothing, that no one of any value/quality is interested or passionate in and is drowned in money and advantages whilst others like us have to do more with less
It’s like a novelty team
At least GWS was smart enough to actually get some ppl there that were passionate about the club
Folau didn't play for the Suns.
No he didn't. Spot on mate. Wrong rugga bugger. Karmichael Hunt played 30 to 40 odd games with Suns.
I agree with the comments regarding GCS, they will never succeed in that cesspit.
In response to Bruce Mc comments suggesting the chance of Ben King coming to the Saints as 'fanciful speculation'. Surely people are allowed to speculate on our future options?
If we weren't looking at attempting to bring Bing in next year, I believe we would have gone a lot harder at recruiting Ladhams from Port. That would mean trading out a first round 2022 pick, which we were really keen to keep. The other option was attempt to recruit a tall forward at one of the drafts, again no banana.
As it stands if we lose Max King we don't have a backup apart from Marshall, who is a better player when rucking.
So when we look at it from a list build scenario it holds some merit. At least worthy od discussion...
Wayne42 wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 2:31pm
Good for us if we get Big Ben but i'm hoping he re-signs with the Suns, like any club in the AFL the Suns need to retain their developing players in order to progress.
They probably needed to keep Greenwood, too...But they screwed that up.
Compared to GWS, they have continually stuffed up themselves up. Their pinnacle was losing co-captains Lynch and May in the same trading period.
Hard to have any pity for them.
Was always going to be a tough gig. The Gold Coast is a soulless strip of commerce if ever I've seen one. Trying to plant AFL in there, in a rugby mad state was always going to be an uphill battle. I doubt they'll ever find any genuine sustained success.
Tougher than setting up the Melbourne Storm here in AFL mad Victoria?
The big difference to me between teh 2 scenarios is that the group behind Melbourne Storm were very good operators and seemed to know what they were doing.
I don't think we can say the same about those in charge of setting up the Suns.
I think that's partly it. But more so that ingrained in Melbourne's culture is the love of sport. The tribal culture of VFL/AFL may be significantly diluted from the days of suburban home grounds, but that cultural narrative of following a team through thick and thin with commitment still runs deep. The Gold Coast, as far as I can tell, has sfa sporting history or roots. Surfing, iron man maybe, but it hasn't got tribalism and committed team affiliation bred into it. It's sporting history is shallow and scanty at best. Challenging ground to try and plant the seeds of a foreign game into.
I’ll add to this… was a no BS set up right from the induction
They picked a unique colour scheme and set up to something Melbourne has always banged on about (4 seasons in a day - not that one cares that much), the mascot kind of looked like a Bushranger, which was more well thought of at the time
United all of Victoria under one banner
AFL style song that is pretty decent
Nice little ground
A bunch of serious NRL players of the time… struggle to remember them all now but Lazarus, Kimmorley, Geyer, Bay, Kearns
Very clear message from the outside that this team was here to be a success and no bull$&@ing around
Compare that to GC - lame colours, ridiculously cutesy BS logo - we’re the Suns… there’s one sun here
Niche market
Cringe worthy theme song
Plethora of absurd advantages in picks/home games, salary cap etc to gift them a flag
Paid millions of dollars to buy the biggest star of the comp who clearly saw the whole thing as nothing more than a cash grab and left when he could
That joke recruiting of Folau
And endless praising and positive PR for something that stands for nothing, that no one of any value/quality is interested or passionate in and is drowned in money and advantages whilst others like us have to do more with less
It’s like a novelty team
At least GWS was smart enough to actually get some ppl there that were passionate about the club
Folau didn't play for the Suns.
That was GWS wasn’t it
Doh
Yeah, but you unwittingly made a good point:
No one gives a sh.it
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
Wayne42 wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 2:31pm
Good for us if we get Big Ben but i'm hoping he re-signs with the Suns, like any club in the AFL the Suns need to retain their developing players in order to progress.
They probably needed to keep Greenwood, too...But they screwed that up.
Compared to GWS, they have continually stuffed up themselves up. Their pinnacle was losing co-captains Lynch and May in the same trading period.
Hard to have any pity for them.
Was always going to be a tough gig. The Gold Coast is a soulless strip of commerce if ever I've seen one. Trying to plant AFL in there, in a rugby mad state was always going to be an uphill battle. I doubt they'll ever find any genuine sustained success.
Tougher than setting up the Melbourne Storm here in AFL mad Victoria?
The big difference to me between teh 2 scenarios is that the group behind Melbourne Storm were very good operators and seemed to know what they were doing.
I don't think we can say the same about those in charge of setting up the Suns.
I think that's partly it. But more so that ingrained in Melbourne's culture is the love of sport. The tribal culture of VFL/AFL may be significantly diluted from the days of suburban home grounds, but that cultural narrative of following a team through thick and thin with commitment still runs deep. The Gold Coast, as far as I can tell, has sfa sporting history or roots. Surfing, iron man maybe, but it hasn't got tribalism and committed team affiliation bred into it. It's sporting history is shallow and scanty at best. Challenging ground to try and plant the seeds of a foreign game into.
I’ll add to this… was a no BS set up right from the induction
They picked a unique colour scheme and set up to something Melbourne has always banged on about (4 seasons in a day - not that one cares that much), the mascot kind of looked like a Bushranger, which was more well thought of at the time
United all of Victoria under one banner
AFL style song that is pretty decent
Nice little ground
A bunch of serious NRL players of the time… struggle to remember them all now but Lazarus, Kimmorley, Geyer, Bay, Kearns
Very clear message from the outside that this team was here to be a success and no bull$&@ing around
Compare that to GC - lame colours, ridiculously cutesy BS logo - we’re the Suns… there’s one sun here
Niche market
Cringe worthy theme song
Plethora of absurd advantages in picks/home games, salary cap etc to gift them a flag
Paid millions of dollars to buy the biggest star of the comp who clearly saw the whole thing as nothing more than a cash grab and left when he could
That joke recruiting of Folau
And endless praising and positive PR for something that stands for nothing, that no one of any value/quality is interested or passionate in and is drowned in money and advantages whilst others like us have to do more with less
It’s like a novelty team
At least GWS was smart enough to actually get some ppl there that were passionate about the club
Folau didn't play for the Suns.
No he didn't. Spot on mate. Wrong rugga bugger. Karmichael Hunt played 30 to 40 odd games with Suns.
You were half right, Saynta - Folau played for the Storm ( as a teenager ) and was a star - another example of the Storm’s brilliant recruiting .
ausfatcat wrote: ↑Thu 02 Dec 2021 10:02pm
Good idea give a AFL team to a town of 80k because it has a river called fitzroy great business case there, I am sure they could raise the 5k a year for the banners but beyond that......
Basing it on demographics is why it hasn’t worked in Gold Coast and western Sydney.
And why Tasmania would have worked…
You need the history, the name…the colours etc.,
I don’t think Rocky would be necessarily great but better than Gold Coast…
How many people in Gold Coast actually like footy? A lot of ex Vics used to move up there to get away from Melbourne..
Anyway it’s not about fans…it’s about broadcasting and streaming rights..more and more every year.
Impatient Sainter nailed it with one word, "cesspit". It truly is the Fool's Gold Coast. Without checking migration statistics, I'd suggest the Vic ex-pats are moving further north with the GC being last on their Qld wish list.
The key to us getting Bing is how they have set up their list in terms of contracts, their length, their weighting. How they sign Steele & Roma will play a big part in helping secure a deal for Bing in terms of what they can offer him. Then structure it in a way not to impact keeping our other young talent.
It will be the story of 2022. I'll be interested to see how Ben handles the spotlight. Fingers crossed for a happy St Kilda ending.
Impatient Sainter wrote: ↑Fri 03 Dec 2021 9:52pm
I agree with the comments regarding GCS, they will never succeed in that cesspit.
In response to Bruce Mc comments suggesting the chance of Ben King coming to the Saints as 'fanciful speculation'. Surely people are allowed to speculate on our future options?
If we weren't looking at attempting to bring Bing in next year, I believe we would have gone a lot harder at recruiting Ladhams from Port. That would mean trading out a first round 2022 pick, which we were really keen to keep. The other option was attempt to recruit a tall forward at one of the drafts, again no banana.
As it stands if we lose Max King we don't have a backup apart from Marshall, who is a better player when rucking.
So when we look at it from a list build scenario it holds some merit. At least worthy od discussion...
While I agree with the comments posted by Bruce McAbee I also think discussing the likelihood of Ben King playing for St Kilda is certainly justified.
One of the issues that hasn't been mentioned so far is St Kilda's capacity to match whatever financial incentives that are very likely to be tabled by any number of clubs in 2022, including the Suns - will there be space in the salary cap if he is offered a humongous 7 year contract with any number of clubs - Swans for example, who will be looking for another big gun to replace Franklin, you wouldn't blame him for taking such a "once in a lifetime" opportunity to set himself up for life!!
It's all very well to pull the emotional "always wanted to play beside my brother at St Kilda" heart string, but the financial considerations are also a very powerful factor.
As I observed in an earlier post - Ben King's future for 2023 and beyond will be as big a story next year as Gazza Jr going to the Suns and Buddy to the Swans - remember that the latter was for a long time destined to move to the Giants, but it ultimately came down to the money.
"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen."
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) American writer and humorist
Not sure Ben will care too much about the Finance side of things .... as mentioned by BM above we have a few players coming out of contract and Ben will still get a decent whack similar to his brother
I think the lure of playing with Max and with a rising Saints team looking for that 2nd Premiership (and having a better chance than GC in winning one) is a bigger draw
As I observed in an earlier post - Ben King's future for 2023 and beyond will be as big a story next year as Gazza Jr going to the Suns and Buddy to the Swans - remember that the latter was for a long time destined to move to the Giants, but it ultimately came down to the money.
Get real. We're talking about two of the best footballers of the modern age who both left their respective clubs in their prime - against Ben King. Possible champion but has so far done very little in comparison.
Bruce G McAbee wrote: ↑Fri 03 Dec 2021 4:22pm
I have to be honest, I am not interested in this story at all because there is a far more likelihood that many will end up being disappointed thus time next year.
However, two factors will play into our chances of luring him from the Gold Coast.
1) However Gold Coast go next year, if they have a half decent season or better, he may see better opportunity for success with the Suns than with us.
2) Coach, if the Suns have an average season and the AFL swings it so Clarkson takes over reigns there, again he will stay with the Suns.
But as I said, it is all fanciful speculation for now and I'll believe he's a St.Kilda player when I see him put pen to paper to a contract with us, however, don't get too excited by this possibility as there is a hell of a long way to go.
I have a bit to do with a major sponsor of the GCS and so I hear a bit about all things the GC especially if I am at Metricon for a meeting like I was last Thursday and there is a lot of chatter around your point 2. GC people also believe their current list is the best they have had and there seems to be a genuine belief they will rise up the ladder and play finals. As you would expect they don't envisage losing a marquee player like Ben who will be one of the players the list will be built around.
The AFL very much want success on the GC and so it's highly doubtful they will sit back and let Ben walk, they treat him and his family very very well and he apparently is very happy up there.
Bruce G McAbee wrote: ↑Fri 03 Dec 2021 4:22pm
I have to be honest, I am not interested in this story at all because there is a far more likelihood that many will end up being disappointed thus time next year.
However, two factors will play into our chances of luring him from the Gold Coast.
1) However Gold Coast go next year, if they have a half decent season or better, he may see better opportunity for success with the Suns than with us.
2) Coach, if the Suns have an average season and the AFL swings it so Clarkson takes over reigns there, again he will stay with the Suns.
But as I said, it is all fanciful speculation for now and I'll believe he's a St.Kilda player when I see him put pen to paper to a contract with us, however, don't get too excited by this possibility as there is a hell of a long way to go.
I have a bit to do with a major sponsor of the GCS and so I hear a bit about all things the GC especially if I am at Metricon for a meeting like I was last Thursday and there is a lot of chatter around your point 2. GC people also believe their current list is the best they have had and there seems to be a genuine belief they will rise up the ladder and play finals. As you would expect they don't envisage losing a marquee player like Ben who will be one of the players the list will be built around.
The AFL very much want success on the GC and so it's highly doubtful they will sit back and let Ben walk, they treat him and his family very very well and he apparently is very happy up there.
Yes it's absolutely wonderful that the AFL can target players and clubs for preferential treatment ..... seems totally fair to me
As I observed in an earlier post - Ben King's future for 2023 and beyond will be as big a story next year as Gazza Jr going to the Suns and Buddy to the Swans - remember that the latter was for a long time destined to move to the Giants, but it ultimately came down to the money.
Get real. We're talking about two of the best footballers of the modern age who both left their respective clubs in their prime - against Ben King. Possible champion but has so far done very little in comparison.
Let's not get carried away here
Yes and no Moods, elite key tall forwards don't grow on trees and while I don't have the stats I expect both Kings are rating around the level where Buddy was at that stage of his career. Either way, there's little doubt both the King brothers are destined for glory.
My point is that if Ben tells his agent to test the market for his next contract (and he'd be a fool if he didn't) there are many clubs that are going to have a crack.....
If he decides to stay put and signs on for another short term 2-3 years with the Suns that would indicate that he will look to go elsewhere in the future, which certainly will include St Kilda, but if the Suns or another club offer him a massive 5 - 7 years it'll be a different story.
"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen."
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) American writer and humorist
He may well choose to remain at the GCS $$$ and for our list balance that wont be earth shattering. But if he does elect to remain, it should occur without GCS receiving any further assistance from the AFL.
I can understand the AFL wanting GCS to keep the marquee players - but surely there comes a point of over reach where they are seen as interfering with free player movement. Ben has already received ambassadorial payments from the AFL for the last 3 years, which would have been well in excess of any other player from his draft year having been paid.
I think if the AFL become involved in this negotiation, it will create a real tipping point of equality for the 17 other clubs in the competition. Our issue as a club is financially we are still far too reliant on the AFL's equality funding, so we dont have leverage with the AFL when it comes to these issues.
The AFL are known not to be fair. That's why they gave Ben the money because they are protecting their interests and annual bonuses by forcing the issue to ensure that these sides don't fail.
The only way this does not happen is if Ben's will to play with the team he loves alongside his brother means more than money.
Time will tell.
Glad its not me in his shoes.
ROLS-LEE wrote: ↑Mon 06 Dec 2021 10:04pm
The AFL are known not to be fair. That's why they gave Ben the money because they are protecting their interests and annual bonuses by forcing the issue to ensure that these sides don't fail.
The only way this does not happen is if Ben's will to play with the team he loves alongside his brother means more than money.
Time will tell.
Glad its not me in his shoes.
Yeah mate I 100% agree the AFL makes exception to suit their own agenda . Would be a great get but if money is the issue & he would rather stay at GC for the extra coin well it's out of our hands
"Gold Coast rising star Ben King has been sent for scans after injuring his knee in a marking contest '
Doesn't sound good. Based on age probably doesn't move the goal posts too much in regard to price will need to pay. Likely to see him spend more time in Melbourne than would normally so that could be a good thing
"Gold Coast rising star Ben King has been sent for scans after injuring his knee in a marking contest '
Doesn't sound good. Based on age probably doesn't move the goal posts too much in regard to price will need to pay. Likely to see him spend more time in Melbourne than would normally so that could be a good thing
Blessing in disguise.. ?
Gold Coast wash out again..
Appoint Clarko…
But they have tried that before …Ben wakes up to it and moves…
,,,just as he is about to put is key in the ignition, the wife says, ‘Where do you think you are going Ben?. We have a life up here now. I like it. The kids like it.’
Then the AFL calls and tells Ben the hard facts…AFL footy will die as a code if GC doesn’t succeed. They offer a scholarship and a Porsche for his unborn kids, off the books. Ben stays…
