Club or Entertainment?

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Post: # 691002Post saintspremiers »

saintsRrising wrote:Following up my point from the other thread used by the OP....

My view is that today that I really follow the St Kilda Football TEAM....

My team is a team that I am still very passionate about....but I have no illusions that it is truly a club any longer.

It is in name, but in reality we are only members of it in the same way that one is a member of saya local gym. It is a business relationship in terms of the "membership".

However above and beyond that I havea passionate and personal relationship with my "team".

My membership of the "club" is an entertainment package that allows me to watch my "team" play...but really plays no great role in my bond with my team.

I view it as that, rather than as being a true "club" membership.
Agree 100% on that SRS....to give an analogy would be the Melbourne Cricket Club - with the huge growth they've had, as a member I do just feel like a number/revenue stream....but that's fine, I pay my $500 odd dollars a year and get to go to the Granny, end of story.

As for the Saints, my 300ish dollars gives me 10 games entry, a reserved seat and peace of mind getting in - anything else (including good footy), I treat as a bonus, not an expectation unfortunately.


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Post: # 691004Post rodgerfox »

Banger2Plugger wrote:
BUT why should that impact our passion for our club. Manchester United perhaps one of the biggest business operated clubs - their supporters are still passionate - they pay heaps more than we do for memberships - the players less accessible to the public, and their jumpers etc cost a fortune to buy. Yet their supporters are totally one eyed and passionate as anyone.
That's because Man U represent their city.

It's tribal.


The AFL lost that. Gave it up.


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Post: # 691008Post degruch »

rodgerfox wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
My membership of the "club" is an entertainment package that allows me to watch my "team" play...but really plays no great role in my bond with my team.

I view it as that, rather than as being a true "club" membership.
Question - would you buy a membership if you couldn't attend games?
Case in point...me. I do not have a paid membership as I can't afford the cash. However, if I have the spare cash, I would purchase a membership know I will be unlikely to see more than one game a year, maybe not even that. It's got nothing to do with entertainment for me. The circus is entertaining.

However, none of this has anything to do with my passion for the club - one of the first things anyone learns about me in the fist half an hour of meeting me, I'm a Saints man through and through (no, not because I have a Saints pencil case on my head). It's just a little sad I can't afford to reinforce my passion by becoming a paid up member this year.


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Post: # 691052Post Richter »

rodgerfox wrote:
Banger2Plugger wrote:
BUT why should that impact our passion for our club. Manchester United perhaps one of the biggest business operated clubs - their supporters are still passionate - they pay heaps more than we do for memberships - the players less accessible to the public, and their jumpers etc cost a fortune to buy. Yet their supporters are totally one eyed and passionate as anyone.
That's because Man U represent their city.

It's tribal.


The AFL lost that. Gave it up.
No they don't. The Manchester area has many football league clubs - probably around as many clubs as Melbourne has AFL teams. Man City, if anything, is traditionally seen as the "Manchester" club.

The "tribal feel" of AFL is different to the EPL - but that is mainly because the EPL fan base remains much more male dominated than AFL is. Nevertheless the AFL remains fiercely tribal.


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Post: # 691055Post milney044 »

My answer to your question is probably irrelevant to you because i'm 18, i missed the VFL days so have missed the atmosphere and the "family, history" side. So in my case, i have always known the AFL as a money making business and am happy with the way things are going.
I think the club could do a little more for it's members ala club functions even but i realise that we are now a big club and it is very hard to please 30 odd thousand members. I'm not happy with the way they have recently treated reserved seat holders, but on the whole, i'm a paid up member and have been since the late 90s and doom days of 2000.

Our game style is not always pretty, but the Saints still have their own ways of exciting me, even with the fact that you just never know what you're going to get.
I see where you're coming from Rog in terms of losing that family feeling and being a part of the club. Just out of interest in this day and age where the Dome exists and the whole of Australia participates in the sport (minus Tasmania and NT?) what would you like the club to be doing differently? Or is it a lost cause?


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Post: # 691084Post saint66au »

rodgerfox wrote:
Banger2Plugger wrote:
BUT why should that impact our passion for our club. Manchester United perhaps one of the biggest business operated clubs - their supporters are still passionate - they pay heaps more than we do for memberships - the players less accessible to the public, and their jumpers etc cost a fortune to buy. Yet their supporters are totally one eyed and passionate as anyone.
That's because Man U represent their city.

It's tribal.


The AFL lost that. Gave it up.
Man U represent their city??? Bwahahahahahah Id love you to say that to Noel or Liam Gallaghers face :-)

Man U is a very interesting case actually

A few years ago the club were bought by a pair of American brothers named the Glazers (Please, the Man U fans among you feel free to correct me on any of this and addd more detail). The rank and file Man U fans were soo incensed by the "corporatisation" of their Club afterwards that thousands of them threw their Memberships in the bin and used the money to buy a side in a league about 10 divisions under Premier League. The renamed the club FCUM (Football Club United of Manchester) and followed them instead. They won their League in their first season and were promoted. They average 2-3,000 people to a came, many times more than anyone else in ther League and sing songs like "We're havin a party when Glazer dies" on the terraces.

Obviously nothing like that can happen in Australia, we dont have enough leagues, finances or the population, but it just shows that disenfranchsed fans exist in all levels of team sport throughout the world.


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Post: # 691114Post BAM! (shhhh) »

For me it's entertainment - when I'm purchasing my memberships, I'm purchasing season tickets. The fact that the club gains financial support from this action is good, but if I didn't go to the games, I wouldn't be inclined to throw my money behind my emotional tie to AFL.

Similarly, when I'm purchasing merchandise, I can make the effort to spend the $$$ at Moorabbin or the relevant tent outside a game rather than at the Essendon owned outlet at Telstra Dome... but the purchase itself is driven by the merch, not the financial support.

That said, even I can see a huge difference between the club now and as it was in even 1997, when the place constantly had supporters and fans coming and going - as well as merchandise and pokies, there was the public bar and the social club bar... what reason and opportunity is there to spend time at Moorabbin now? While I don't feel the need or desire to be spending time there, I probably wouldn't be that hard to persuade otherwise. As an adult, that environment hasn't been part of my life.

But if it had, I'd miss it.


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Post: # 691129Post GrumpyOne »

saint66au wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
Banger2Plugger wrote:
BUT why should that impact our passion for our club. Manchester United perhaps one of the biggest business operated clubs - their supporters are still passionate - they pay heaps more than we do for memberships - the players less accessible to the public, and their jumpers etc cost a fortune to buy. Yet their supporters are totally one eyed and passionate as anyone.
That's because Man U represent their city.

It's tribal.


The AFL lost that. Gave it up.
Man U represent their city??? Bwahahahahahah Id love you to say that to Noel or Liam Gallaghers face :-)

Man U is a very interesting case actually

A few years ago the club were bought by a pair of American brothers named the Glazers (Please, the Man U fans among you feel free to correct me on any of this and addd more detail).
You can see right through the Glaziers' work. :wink:


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Post: # 691137Post WayneJudson42 »

GrumpyOne wrote:
saint66au wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
Banger2Plugger wrote:
BUT why should that impact our passion for our club. Manchester United perhaps one of the biggest business operated clubs - their supporters are still passionate - they pay heaps more than we do for memberships - the players less accessible to the public, and their jumpers etc cost a fortune to buy. Yet their supporters are totally one eyed and passionate as anyone.
That's because Man U represent their city.

It's tribal.


The AFL lost that. Gave it up.
Man U represent their city??? Bwahahahahahah Id love you to say that to Noel or Liam Gallaghers face :-)

Man U is a very interesting case actually

A few years ago the club were bought by a pair of American brothers named the Glazers (Please, the Man U fans among you feel free to correct me on any of this and addd more detail).
You can see right through the Glaziers' work. :wink:
That's a very reflective thought, Grumpy. I'd be shattered if the same thing happened to the Saints.

Still, it just goes to show that we shouldn't throw stone...


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Post: # 691168Post PJ »

I disagree that clubs in the VFL days weren't businesses interested in the dollar - to my way of thinking they just weren't professional about it, they ran the two streams of footy and business together (not a good recipe for success). It's more an argument of amateur vs professional.

In the 70's Nth Melb decided one year to buy a few big name players - I think Doug Wade was one - and I remember being gobsmacked at the idea that a player could go to another club for money, it was almost unthinkable. That's were I lost my innocence.

Clubs became aquainted with media and how it could work for them. They smartened up to the idea that if they wanted to exist in the future and not go under if they were not succeeding on the field they needed to keep the business and the footy separate.

The media now controllers the formatting and layout of how it's presented and each club wants a slice of that - it's no different to anything else in this world. Viability is part of survival, we're a comsumer society.

Do I still love my club - hell yes. To quote SRS I follow the St.Kilda football team and those involved with the footy side. Yes they are highly paid professional men but they clearly motivated to win for St.Kilda and "the fans". Do you thinking Maxxy was putting on the tears that game a few years ago when we should have won but got pipped (bullies??)?

I've sat in a few WAFL dug outs watching games because of my relatives and remember the passion they had for their club. They are no less passionate today than they were then - it's just different now.


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Post: # 691182Post bobmurray »

I think these types of threads are a load of bollocks,brought about by
absolutely nothing happening in AFL Football land at this time of the year.

Having said that , at least these sorts of topics prevent the forum from experiencing too big a lull when there is nothing newsworthy....

Mind you,i'll still keep reading any active thread,regardless....

If football wasn't a business then the players wouldn't be,couldn't be,apprentice millionaires....... :lol:


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Post: # 691187Post Solar »

an interesting question is where does the passion come from and once lost can either party bring it back to the table....

I thought I was lost to the general AFL game outside the saints but sheesh that grand final was fun to watch.

Ever followed your club via internet scores in japan... thats humbling.... or via sms in a valley in NSW... thats difficult....

I remember 3/4 time of the 2004 prelim and being in the pisser. In a whole toilet of port fans there was just two saints fans... us v them... there was a nod and an agreement in our looks that as a club we were going to give everything in that next 30 minutes. Emotionally I kicked every kick in that last quarter.....

If the saints played in the local league thats who I would go see. It just happens that we play in the AFL.


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Post: # 691191Post St Fidelius »

FWIW it is both a CLUB and an ENTERTAINMENT IMO

As it is a BUSINESS and a BELIEF, a CLUB, a RELIGION, a GATHERING, a TIME TO SHARE WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS..

I feel for the likes of joffaboy and the fireman and have sent off my anger towards the Club on how these (and others) have been treated.

Some of them never received any prior notification of the impending changes, and to me that is totally p1ss poor

The Club has treated these loyal supporters wrongly, and at the time I felt that I should not renew my membership in support of these loyal members.

In my mind they have divided our membership and have created a "class" or some type of barrier between memberships which has not previously been seen to the naked eye.

Archie's email to me about this issue has been flippant, digressive and unimpressive and I really feel that he has little concern on that issue.

I am really bewildered on just where we are heading and the direction this group of administrators are taking us.


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Post: # 691208Post rodgerfox »

Solar wrote:
I thought I was lost to the general AFL game outside the saints but sheesh that grand final was fun to watch.
I took my fam to the Show on GF Day.


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Post: # 691210Post rodgerfox »

St Fidelius wrote:
Archie's email to me about this issue has been flippant, digressive and unimpressive and I really feel that he has little concern on that issue.
Has there been any form of contact with the club that hasn't resulted in a flippant, digressive and unimpressive response from Archie Fraser?


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Post: # 691215Post joffaboy »

rodgerfox wrote:
St Fidelius wrote:
Archie's email to me about this issue has been flippant, digressive and unimpressive and I really feel that he has little concern on that issue.
Has there been any form of contact with the club that hasn't resulted in a flippant, digressive and unimpressive response from Archie Fraser?
Very good question.

Its what happens when you put passionless non football automotrons in charge whose only concern is to fleece the member for as much cash as he can.

The member means F*** all to these type of apparantick suits - doesn't matter what they say - couldn't care less about anything except of how much money you can give them.

Fraser and this admin is a disgrace.


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Post: # 691224Post BAM! (shhhh) »

Another thought that's occurred to me as I read... the AFL and it's clubs are turning people off with their "big business" approach. While the AFL can genuinely claim to be a relatively large enterprise in the context of Australian business, the clubs (including interstate financial powerhouses and Melbourne clubs like Collingwood and Essendon) by both scale and consumerbase are much more in line with SME.

While SME (small and medium enterprise) are corporates, my experience is that those who run them successfully borrow both from big corporate strategy and small business approach. If we take supporters as demographics, and members as loyal customers, then the vibe of these threads seems to be that people aren't getting the extra value that small businesses are expected to provide to keep their niche.

If we take bookstores as an example, some local stores thrive, and there are a couple of minor chains that succeed in spite of cheaper options (Borders) or internet ordering (Amazon) - the key to this is the "3rd place" approach that made starbucks such a monster (idea is that we've all got home and work as our main 2 venues, so what's the next place we'll choose to spend time when we're not in one of these 2 places?). St Kilda and other AFL clubs may be both missing an opportunity and disenchanting their key customers by ignoring such a fundamental marketing concept.

By scale, AFL clubs are not in line with their European and American counterparts. Their turnovers are miniscule in comparison (witness the salary cap, where individual players in MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL frequently exceed what an AFL team is paid) . While pursuing this success is both natural and a good long term strategy, perhaps there's a key message to these threads...

At the moment the club is not taking people with it on that journey.


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Post: # 691233Post terry smith rules »

rodgerfox wrote:
Solar wrote:
I thought I was lost to the general AFL game outside the saints but sheesh that grand final was fun to watch.
I took my fam to the Show on GF Day.
and there is the thing

I reckon Rodger that your "passion" not only for the "current" saints is waning but also the entire game.

How can you dismiss watching two of the best teams of recent years play in what was an absolute brilliant advertisement for our game.

I love the Saints but I also love "the footy', I love the genius of Buddy , the fev show , the passion of brad johnson.

You guys need to see the big picture. We are lucky enough to have a team playing in the greatest sporting comp in the world! no bias of course.

To me that is amazing, and I feel sorry for those stuck at rugby union or league and other ball games.

The desire to be standing on a couple of cans in the outer at moorabbin may evoke fantastic memories but in reality...

Without commercialism we would be watching our colours in a suburban comp, if at all.

fqf


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Post: # 691234Post rodgerfox »

BAM! (shhhh) wrote:Another thought that's occurred to me as I read... the AFL and it's clubs are turning people off with their "big business" approach. While the AFL can genuinely claim to be a relatively large enterprise in the context of Australian business, the clubs (including interstate financial powerhouses and Melbourne clubs like Collingwood and Essendon) by both scale and consumerbase are much more in line with SME.

While SME (small and medium enterprise) are corporates, my experience is that those who run them successfully borrow both from big corporate strategy and small business approach. If we take supporters as demographics, and members as loyal customers, then the vibe of these threads seems to be that people aren't getting the extra value that small businesses are expected to provide to keep their niche.

If we take bookstores as an example, some local stores thrive, and there are a couple of minor chains that succeed in spite of cheaper options (Borders) or internet ordering (Amazon) - the key to this is the "3rd place" approach that made starbucks such a monster (idea is that we've all got home and work as our main 2 venues, so what's the next place we'll choose to spend time when we're not in one of these 2 places?). St Kilda and other AFL clubs may be both missing an opportunity and disenchanting their key customers by ignoring such a fundamental marketing concept.

By scale, AFL clubs are not in line with their European and American counterparts. Their turnovers are miniscule in comparison (witness the salary cap, where individual players in MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL frequently exceed what an AFL team is paid) . While pursuing this success is both natural and a good long term strategy, perhaps there's a key message to these threads...

At the moment the club is not taking people with it on that journey.
That's a really good point.

In order to survive against big businesses, small businesses need to differentiate themselves. Offer something that the big businesses can't. Because clearly the big businesses offers customers stuff that the small businesses can't. That's generally price, and variety.

If a small business can't compete on cost and variety, which generally they can't, they need to offer something else to stay afloat. That 'something else' is often a 'personal touch'. Friendliness, an emotional connection, a sense of community. They know your name. Ask how you are, and are interested in the the response.

That's just an example.

AFL clubs used to offer this sort of feeling. The AFL had no connection with it's 'customers', that was clear some time ago. However the clubs still had it. The Saints definately did.

The Saints definately do not now. In my view.


If they don't offer that, and are offering simply 'entertainment' as a soulless brand, they need to be very, very careful And this is where the area of 'attractive footy' comes into it.

Those who have an emotional attachment to the club, don't care. Doesn't matter how you win, just win. You could tuck the ball down the back of your shorts and run the length of the ground for they care - it's the club winning that matters. How attractive it looks doesn't matter. The diehards aren't there to be entertained.

However the ones who aren't overly 'connected' to the club, want and expect to be entertained. If you're selling entertainment, you need to be entertaining. This is why it's such a dangerous tact for AFL clubs.

The reality is you're only entertaining for roughly a 3-4 year period if you're lucky. Then you're an easy beat for the next 3-4.

You better make sure you have enough cash in the bank when the tough times come around. Because the money will naturally dry up and the interest fade, if your core product is shiit (ie. entertainment).


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Post: # 691240Post markp »

It no doubt trickles through the playing group of any team too.... 'bleeding for the jumper' seems to be becoming a rarer commodity.

I remember my very first impression of the Dockland stadium was that it felt like an office building or shopping centre. I think that's why I look forward to the intra-club match at Moorabbin so much...... I don't wanna feel like I'm at work or shopping at Chadvegas.


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Post: # 691250Post Solar »

rodgerfox wrote:
Solar wrote:
I thought I was lost to the general AFL game outside the saints but sheesh that grand final was fun to watch.
I took my fam to the Show on GF Day.
ok I get it now... it's all about you...


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Post: # 691251Post Banger2Plugger »

Ok I'll play the naive bunny...
What were we doing as a club (not outspoken spinning Presidents, or Headline grabbing coaches)then that is different from now.

I honestly don't see a lot of differences - other than in the past 2 years I have seen DVD's not small tacky calendars, club cap and scarf instead of cheap metal boxes. In fact as a supporter I felt more loved receiving the cap and scarf.

Apart from that - the 12 month payment system certainly has relieved the strain on my finances at the beginning of the year to purchase a membership.

So are they looking after members better now than then - in a physical sense I think they have - as opposed to media displays of self indulgence and egos.

In terms of the level 2 seating - I thought alot of these seats which are now available were previously held by those attending the corporate functions??? In any case - if the demand of the seats on level 2 is so great, then that will force the price up - forcing them to be social club members I guess is a way they can achieve that.

We are blessed with high capacity stadiums, I shiver for Geelong supporters should their membership ever exceed the number of seats available at Skilled/Kardinia - as this will impact on their membership / seat costs as well.


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Post: # 691255Post Richter »

BAM! (shhhh) wrote:Another thought that's occurred to me as I read... the AFL and it's clubs are turning people off with their "big business" approach.

........................

At the moment the club is not taking people with it on that journey.
They are clearly turning off the likes of Rodgerfox, but they are turning on a whole heap of others like me, for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't St Kilda back in the 80s have a membership around 10-15,000. What is it now?

Sure there are vicissitudes - that's the natural swing of support for teams - and our team has had a difficult time adjusting to the post-GT era.

Some people are being turned off by the AFL - but many more are being wooed - says more about those who are turning away from the AFL than it does the AFL I reckon.


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Post: # 691268Post WayneJudson42 »

rodgerfox wrote: In order to survive against big businesses, small businesses need to differentiate themselves. Offer something that the big businesses can't. Because clearly the big businesses offers customers stuff that the small businesses can't. That's generally price, and variety.

If a small business can't compete on cost and variety, which generally they can't, they need to offer something else to stay afloat. That 'something else' is often a 'personal touch'. Friendliness, an emotional connection, a sense of community. They know your name. Ask how you are, and are interested in the the response.
Ok, I'm confused... Please clarify.

You've railed against the club using emotional blackmail to suck money from supporters, and now you're saying that smaller busineses have to do this as a point of difference.

So it appears that you condemn it, yet admit that it's necessary? And accept it. And you were happy tp pay for that point of difference... even if it was, after all, emotional blackmail, anyway.

Have I missed something?


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Post: # 691274Post rodgerfox »

WayneJudson42 wrote:
Ok, I'm confused... Please clarify.

You've railed against the club using emotional blackmail to suck money from supporters
No I haven't.


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