What the %$&^ type of footy do we actually play?

[rodgerfox]

Interesting thread....

Further to what the OP raised, it's clearly still the case. How do we play? What are we? What's our game plan? When Richo talks about overlooking Freeman because he isn't ready to 'play the way we want to play' - WTF is he talking about?

How do we play?? What are we actually trying to do?

18 months on from the OP, it's the same old, same old. Beat up pathetic teams - get flogged by good ones. To the untrained eye, we look like a shambles with no flow, rhythm or system, even when we win!

The stats still, 18 months on from this OP give no indication as to WTF we are as a team....

Stat	2018 Ranking	2017 Ranking
Disposals	3rd	3rd
Cont. Possessions	16th	13th
Effective Disposals	2nd	3rd
Goals	15th	14th
Points For	14th	12th
Assists	15th	12th
Inside 50s	12th	10th
Marks Inside 50	13th	4th
Rebound 50s	15th	8th
Tackles	14th	13th
1%ers	11th	17th
Clearances	17th	14th

We're not 'strong' and a 'pressure' team, and weren't last year either based on the above. So this appears to be nothing more than a myth perpetuated by the club. We're rubbish in Clearances, Contested Possessions, Tackles and 1%ers.

We are also terrible at moving the ball forward, and were last year too. We were 10th for Inside 50s last year, 12th this year. And clearly when we do, even with Riewoldt making a big difference to the Marks Inside 50 stat last year, we couldn't score. Even last year when being in the Top 4 for this stat - we were still 12th for Points For! And 14th for Goals.

This biggest concern, is that we actually get the ball. And this is the damning part regarding our game plan, and our strategy. Top 4 for Disposals and Effective Disposals for the past 2 years - yet we've been 10th and 12 for Inside 50s.

[Con Gorozidis]

We play Saints Footy.
That is our brand.
When we bring the high pressure effort and intensity we are elite and can match it with the top sides. Think Maddie's match and GWS games.
We are inconsistent because we are a young side.
Once the youngsters get some not games and consistency then bang. Top 4.


This is the company mantra on here. Stray from it and expect abuse.

P.s.
Good analysis by OP and Rodger.
Raises more questions than answers

What kind of team are We?
Based on the stats we are an easy team to play against.
To the naked eye we have a 'numbers at the contest' approach where we break even at a contest or lose a stoppage.
Trouble is when the ball spills out. Even when we when it..We are outnumbered at the next contest whether in offence or defence.
It looks like the same thing we have been bemoaning for several years. Armo, Ross, dunstan and Steele are all all competent individual players.
But as a unit they are awful. Too similar. Too crab like. Too sideways.
We can't have all 4 of these blokes in the middle together week in week out.
We need a better mix.

This is obvious to 90% of observers. Apart from Richo it seems.

[Cairnsman]

Terrible at moving the ball forward? Did we have the ball in our forward line more than GWS on Saturday? I thought I saw that stat somewhere.

[Con Gorozidis]

What a load of crap. We have beaten the best team in the competition (GWS). Sydney may have had a shocking start to the season and may or may not get to the finals, but they are a Top 4 team.

Your analysis says nothing other than attempt to reinforce your anxieties.

LOL

[rodgerfox]

Terrible at moving the ball forward? Did we have the ball in our forward line more than GWS on Saturday? I thought I saw that stat somewhere.

But isn't that a case in point?

On the weekend, we had 60 Inside 50s! That's equal with Melbourne's average which is number 1 in the comp.

How do you lose when you have that many Inside 50s?? Not only how do you lose....HOW THE f*** DO YOU ONLY MANAGE 61 POINTS FOR THE ENTIRE GAME!!!!

It's just unfathomable.


We average 52 Inside 50s a week, which is 12th in the comp. The club, and some supporters seems to have this awful habit of pointing to the outlier stats as proof that things are working. Pointing at 60 Inside 50s on the weekend as evidence that we move the ball forward well is honestly laughable. It's like the constant reflection on the Richmond win last year, and the GWS Draw this year.

It's the exception - not the rule.

[spert]

It might be tedious, but we need an in-depth analysis of each inside 50- I would expect the coach and his assistants to be doing this.

Some obvious issues to identify are: poor delivery (and by whom), poor decision making (and by whom), are the forwards leading when the ball is coming to the 50, if not, why not and is the ball carrier not honouring leads either by poor decision making or poor disposal. Set shots are still a big problem. etc etc etc.

There was a colossal forward half failure against GWS (and many times this season). I remember one of the commentators months ago saying that we have a disconnect between the midfield and forward line...how true.

This is something a coach is paid to rectify- it falls directly at the feet of the head coach. The failure of the coach to remedy this is pretty clear.

[Cairnsman]

Not well, clearly we can get it in enough however to this untrained eye it loooks like the mechanism into F50 is problematic. Too slow or indirect and it allows the defence to setup easly well on an undermanned forward line. And so is it chicken and egg, is the mechanism of qucik entry failing because of slow play out of the half back and midfield, or is it because our forward line isn't working well enough and so the ball movement slows down while players probe for a leadup forward option and only left with a kick to contest option, aka the bomb.

[rodgerfox]

It might be tedious, but we need an in-depth analysis of each inside 50- I would expect the coach and his assistants to be doing this.

Some obvious issues to identify are: poor delivery (and by whom), poor decision making (and by whom), are the forwards leading when the ball is coming to the 50, if not, why not and is the ball carrier not honouring leads either by poor decision making or poor disposal. Set shots are still a big problem. etc etc etc.

There was a colossal forward half failure against GWS (and many times this season). I remember one of the commentators months ago saying that we have a disconnect between the midfield and forward line...how true.

This is something a coach is paid to rectify- it falls directly at the feet of the head coach. The failure of the coach to remedy this is pretty clear.

My understanding is that Kingsley was 'promoted' to the newly created role of Transition Coach this season. This role apparently oversees the link between defence, midfield and forward. The transition.

And funnily enough - this is the precise problem that we have!


There seems to be just such an enormous disconnect between the way we defend, and how we transition this to attack. And on the flipside - the way in which we attack, and how we then transition that back to defending.

Our 'run and gun' attack isn't supported by the way we set up to defend. The amount of times we play on manically and try to move the ball at kamikaze speed when we win it back defensively, only to be horribly out of position in the front half is astounding.

I think that's why the stats show such a high amount of disposals. We overuse it going forward as we aren't transitioning from defence to attack. We either run and gun and bomb it to an unstructured mess up forward (as the forwards haven't had time to transition from defence to attack yet) or we flip it around to each other whilst we wait for our offence structure to setup. Unfortunately by this time, the opposition's defence has also setup and we missed out chance.

[rodgerfox]

Not well, clearly we can get it in enough however to this untrained eye it loooks like the mechanism into F50 is problematic. Too slow or indirect and it allows the defence to setup easly well on an undermanned forward line. And so is it chicken and egg, is the mechanism of qucik entry failing because of slow play out of the half back and midfield, or is it because our forward line isn't working well enough and so the ball movement slows down while players probe for a leadup forward option and only left with a kick to contest option, aka the bomb.

Fair question.

However I'm am firmly, unequivocally in the camp that says that the transition and ball movement is the reason we suck - not the forward line.

[spert]

It's a big problem. Putting the poor disposal aside, I could see real structural problems in our forward half of the ground- the ball just moves out of our forward half way too easily. A couple of reasons are our poor one on one contested marking outcomes..I'll let Membrey off there, but the rest just need to be in more control of the ball. I reckon in my unfit state, I could run the ball out of the Saints forward half- there seems to be big unguarded holes to run into- and the half forwards and midfield are letting their opponents control the ball far too easily. Hey..I'm not the coach though!

[parkeysainter]

Everyone wants to and plays a similar style overall in the AFL with some differences though of course. Its just some sides are better at executing it due to having better skills and players. I know it sounds simple, but its still just footy at the end of the day. The obvious end goal for any side is the same.

[Cairnsman]

Not well, clearly we can get it in enough however to this untrained eye it loooks like the mechanism into F50 is problematic. Too slow or indirect and it allows the defence to setup easly well on an undermanned forward line. And so is it chicken and egg, is the mechanism of qucik entry failing because of slow play out of the half back and midfield, or is it because our forward line isn't working well enough and so the ball movement slows down while players probe for a leadup forward option and only left with a kick to contest option, aka the bomb.

Fair question.

However I'm am firmly, unequivocally in the camp that says that the transition and ball movement is the reason we suck - not the forward line.

I think we might be in agreement RF, the transition, the Melbourne victory is probably exbit A of when it all worked well as a complete system. We had Josh, Paddy and Membrey working well to provide options and the ball was being sling shot off half back quicky which also regularly allowed the ball to come in through the middle and further put their defence under pressure from forwards spreading well with good running patterns, to the eye the forwards looked cohesive that day. Is the game plan that defeated Melbourne what we are trying to achieve?

[saintbob]

Aren't we paying ~90% of the salary cap? How could you possibly beat the top teams on a regular basis? We'd be playing two top players down every time we get out on the field.

If we’re only paying 90% it because we have too, the only blokes who would deserve anywhere near market value would be Gresh, Roberton, Jake and Steven (although personally I think he’s overrated).

The blokes getting over paid IMO would be Newnes, Ross, Savage, McCartin, Weller, Lonie, McKenzie and Geary, there’s plenty I’ve missed in that list they’re just the ones that sprung to mind without thinking too much.

[Con Gorozidis]

Billings is on big coin.

[rodgerfox]

I find this interesting, as the Melbourne game was clearly the best we've looked.

But statistically, we looked the same....

Stat	2018 Average	Melbourne Game
Disposals	389.4	387
Cont. Possessions	136.9	137
Effective Disposals	286.1	278
Goals	10	18
Assists	6.9	11
Inside 50s	52.1	50
Marks Inside 50	10.5	17
Rebound 50s	35.8	42
Tackles	61.7	48
1%ers	48.3	54
Clearances	33.4	32
Points For	71	119
Opponent Points For	94.6	117

So granted I'm selecting some fairly generic stats out here, but as you see we basically did nothing different. Oddly, we laid 13 less Tackles than our season average, and even actually had less Effective Disposals!

The glaring differences however are that we clearly were more efficient with our ball movement. More Marks Inside 50 as a result, and although our conversion was still only 62% and we went Inside 50 less than usual - we increased our Points For by 8 goals!

The other glaring difference? We allowed our opponents 25 more points than usual.

So maybe it's simplistic....but I think we sacrificed some of our defence that day, and as a result it freed us up to attack more sensibly and efficiently. Now if we tried that every week, we'd get mauled quite a bit. So I'm not suggesting we scrap all defence and just go all out attack. But in my opinion, the two strategies we have in place are not working together.

We either need to adjust our defence to compliment our offence - or change out offensive strategy to something that actually works with our defensive setups.

[stkfc1]

Its pretty bloody simple why we suck going into F50.
We do not kick to our forwards advantage. It more often to the defenders advantage.
We more often than not kick to 2 on 1 or 3 on 1. Not in our favour.
We often kick it on top of our leading forwards heads or at their feet. Again making it easy for the defender to negate.
When we dont honour leads and we go to the bomb it long, to said 2 or 3 on 1 situation quite often our small forwards are not front and center to the drop of the ball in contested situations and then the opposition get an easy run out of D50.
We cant hit the side of a barn let alone get it between the big stick.
How many games this year have we lost due to bad kicking? 5 at least I'd say. Scoreboard pressure is such a game changer and we let teams off the hook constantly. Teams know they just have to keep going as we'll kick ourselves out of it eventually. Must do wonders for their confidence and totally destroys ours.
Its fricken school yard fooball stuff but our professional coaching staff and players cant seem to figure it out. Time for change at all levels.

[saynta]

Good posts from Roger and stfc1.

[dragit]

Billings is on big coin.

how much con?

[Cairnsman]

I find this interesting, as the Melbourne game was clearly the best we've looked.

But statistically, we looked the same....

Stat	2018 Average	Melbourne Game
Disposals	389.4	387
Cont. Possessions	136.9	137
Effective Disposals	286.1	278
Goals	10	18
Assists	6.9	11
Inside 50s	52.1	50
Marks Inside 50	10.5	17
Rebound 50s	35.8	42
Tackles	61.7	48
1%ers	48.3	54
Clearances	33.4	32
Points For	71	119
Opponent Points For	94.6	117

So granted I'm selecting some fairly generic stats out here, but as you see we basically did nothing different. Oddly, we laid 13 less Tackles than our season average, and even actually had less Effective Disposals!

The glaring differences however are that we clearly were more efficient with our ball movement. More Marks Inside 50 as a result, and although our conversion was still only 62% and we went Inside 50 less than usual - we increased our Points For by 8 goals!

The other glaring difference? We allowed our opponents 25 more points than usual.

So maybe it's simplistic....but I think we sacrificed some of our defence that day, and as a result it freed us up to attack more sensibly and efficiently. Now if we tried that every week, we'd get mauled quite a bit. So I'm not suggesting we scrap all defence and just go all out attack. But in my opinion, the two strategies we have in place are not working together.

We either need to adjust our defence to compliment our offence - or change out offensive strategy to something that actually works with our defensive setups.

Me using the Melbourne game as a reference point is based purely on optics, we just looked really quick sling shotting out of defence and into F50. Is there a stat or stats for measuring the speed of the sling shot out of defence? That's what I think needs improving, it pressures the opposition when you are in attack mode. So strong pressure is applied defensively and ALSO offenevisley. Isn't the sling shot a part of many clubs game plan?

[Scollop]

Its pretty bloody simple why we suck going into F50.
We do not kick to our forwards advantage. It more often to the defenders advantage.
We more often than not kick to 2 on 1 or 1 on 3. Not in our favour.
We often kick it on top of our leading forwards heads or at their feet. Again making it easy for the defender to negate.
When we dont honour leads instead go to the bomb it long to said 2 or 3 on 1 situation which leads too quite often our small forwards are not front and center to the drop of the ball in contested situations and then the opposition get an eady run out of D50.
We cant hit the side of a barn let alone get it between the big stick.
How many games this year have we lost due to bad kicking? 5 at least I'd say. Scoreboard pressure is such a game changer and we let teams off the hook constantly. Teams know they just have to keep going as we'll kick ourselves out of it eventually. Must do wonders for their confidence and totally destroys ours.
Its fricken schoold yard fooball stuff but our proffessional coaching staff and players cant seem ro figure it out. Time for change at all levels.

Nailed it. Brilliant disply of Saints footy on the weekend. We have some very good footballers that a decent head coach can work with, but unless we do what you said there in that last sentence, members and supporters will just get more of the same from this team.

[rodgerfox]

Me using the Melbourne game as a reference point is based purely on optics, we just looked really quick sling shotting out of defence and into F50. Is there a stat or stats for measuring the speed of the sling shot out of defence? That's what I think needs improving, it pressures the opposition when you are in attack mode. So strong pressure is applied defensively and ALSO offenevisley. Isn't the sling shot a part of many clubs game plan?

That's pretty much my point though.

We are hell bent on slick and super fast ball movement going forward - but due to the way we defend structurally, there's nothing to kick to when do sling shot.

Everyone is grossly out of position due to how we're setting up to defend.


And to make matters worse, I think we then get caught out on the way back when we inevitably turn it over when we go forward.


We're not transitioning well at all.

[chico2001]

A lot of high ball coming in which no forward likes unless you are 200cm with good hands

[thejiggingsaint]

“What type of footy do we actually play”? Errrrrrrrrr BAD footy! DUMB footy! Pretty much the most demoralising side I’ve seen in a few years of following this club.

[Linton Lodger]

What a load of crap. We have beaten the best team in the competition (GWS). Sydney may have had a shocking start to the season and may or may not get to the finals, but they are a Top 4 team.

Your analysis says nothing other than attempt to reinforce your anxieties.

LOL

Dastyari's Dogsbody, what the f**k are you on about?

If you're going to dredge up a comment I made over a year ago, you might want to make your point clear, instead of your typical sub-moronic LOL. Or do you just have little spasms whilst typing? Dastyari must go for 'special' employees, you know ones that never cotton on to what's in the brown paper bags. Given that your current or former boss is an intellectually empty space, you can't be far behind.

By the way I stand by the comment you have mysteriously dredged up. Round 7 2017, GWS were the best team in the comp hands down and Sydney despite their start where as good as any Top 4 team in 2017.

You might want to explain your point, because at the moment you're looking like someone born and always destined to be a half witted dogsbody.