No cattle, what can a coach do?

[samoht]

Oh God this 'coach hasn't developed the players' Bullsh*t again?!?!
recruitment has been mind bendingly F*CKED

The list sucks...
No one will ever develop Newnes
No one will ever develop Savage
No one will ever develop Weller
etc etc etc

Keep recruiting talent like Gresh and Steele, and we might get somewhere

Why do Weller, Savage and Newnes get picked every week if they're not doing what the coach is asking of them?

Weller didnt get picked every week - I think he's looking to join his brother. Newnes is our longest kick and played quite a few games forward this year. Savage is our best kick, and he was surplus to Hawthorn's needs - yet has proven very useful, we are actually getting the best out of him. Coffield and Clark may eventually become A graders for us, and they got quite a few games in their first year.

[BenLong#21]

Join his brother?
Even the Suns. Who are the biggest basket case in vfl/afl history wouldn't consider offering Mav Weller a contract.

Newnes and Savage aren't handy. They are the entrenched mediocrity at the heart of the club.

[samoht]

It's not only the talent, we've recruited too many of the same types of players - and we're trying to fit 10 half back flankers into 2 positions, and 6 inside midfielders into 2 positions and 4-6 ruckmen into 1 position.
None of the recruits are A grade - but it looks like Steele is heading that way.

Steele isn't going to let game plans, coaches or CEOs/administration stand in his way - and other players can take a leaf out of his book.

Obviously we've also had injuries and an unsettled lineup this year - but we still got 1/2 a win more than Fremantle did in 2016, despite their million dollar coach and proven game plan.

Yes, but they played in a GF in 2013, tumbled down the ladder and have leapfrogged us again.

Which goes to prove that only 1 or two things need to go wrong and you go from a GF to a bottom team. We've had more than 1 or 2 things go wrong this year - we've copped a lot of injuries and didn't have a settled lineup all year - and the players that eventually returned -like Acres who was on track for a breakout year - didn't hit their straps. The way we've recruited - a scattergun approach with no plan over the last 10 or so years, where we've recruited the same types over and over - is not going to help us going forward.

[saintbob]

HAwks - same coach for over a decade, gun players retired and replaced with average GOP's - out of the finals in straight sets.
A great coach does not a great team make!
Players can make the coach look a genius and also a dud. It seems every team needs enough A grade talent before you can judge a coach. I am as disappointed in the insipid Ricoh as anyone, but whether he stays or goes we will go nowhere without real talent.
We need to trade some of the better GOP's if it gets us that gun player - keep our high draft picks and stick to a strategy that will build that A grade core not be panicked into bringing in just who is available

You are kidding right? Clarkson should be applauded for getting that team to finsihing 4th and playing finals. Richo won 4 games for gods sake.

Exactly

[saintadamski]

The reason we have ‘no cattle’ is because Richo and his team have done a piss poor job of developing our youngsters over the past 5 years.

What youngsters are those?
Newnes? Weller? Sinclair?

They couldn't f****** develop in a photo dark room

Billings, Acres, Dunstan, McCartin, Goddard, Lonie, Longer , Weller, Minchington and many more

The only player in there that has any potential to become A grade is Acres.

You are seriously including Weller, Lonie, and McCartin?
And Goddard had like one or two games

Billings is so soft he may as well be a prize at a fair.

I think you're suffering the same sickness as the coach and recruiting staff.

[samoht]

The reason we have ‘no cattle’ is because Richo and his team have done a piss poor job of developing our youngsters over the past 5 years.

What youngsters are those?
Newnes? Weller? Sinclair?

They couldn't f****** develop in a photo dark room

Billings, Acres, Dunstan, McCartin, Goddard, Lonie, Longer , Weller, Minchington and many more

The only player in there that has any potential to become A grade is Acres.

You are seriously including Weller, Lonie, and McCartin?
And Goddard had like one or two games

Billings is so soft he may as well be a prize at a fair.

I think you're suffering the same sickness as the coach and recruiting staff.

And even Acres doesn't have and will never have the elite kicking skills we need - he'll be like Ross and Steven, where they win a lot of ball, and where their kicking lets them down all too often, and undoes their good work. We need midfielders like Sidebottom , Pendlebury, Dusty Martin, etc... we need A grade Wagyu cattle. We don't have these really talented players - a core of these really talented players - to build a team around.

[6621104]

HAwks - same coach for over a decade, gun players retired and replaced with average GOP's - out of the finals in straight sets.
A great coach does not a great team make!
Players can make the coach look a genius and also a dud. It seems every team needs enough A grade talent before you can judge a coach. I am as disappointed in the insipid Ricoh as anyone, but whether he stays or goes we will go nowhere without real talent.
We need to trade some of the better GOP's if it gets us that gun player - keep our high draft picks and stick to a strategy that will build that A grade core not be panicked into bringing in just who is available

You are kidding right? Clarkson should be applauded for getting that team to finsihing 4th and playing finals. Richo won 4 games for gods sake.

Exactly

I do wonder at the capacity for some on here to actually read and understand the contents of a post. Some it seems think there is some disparagement of the great Clarko in my original. He is the same or even more experienced coach as he was when the premierships seem never ending. Yet...?
He is neither as great as he appeared or now a dud. He had some of the best players in the comp, now he does not. So the hawks are out.
A new coach will not make the Saints a premiership team. Finding players with the talent will!
Goodwin is 2 years in- the Dees flying! He has the cattle and good luck to him.

[saintadamski]

It's not only the talent, we've recruited too many of the same types of players - and we're trying to fit 10 half back flankers into 2 positions, and 6 inside midfielders into 2 positions and 4-6 ruckmen into 1 position.
None of the recruits are A grade - but it looks like Steele is heading that way.

Steele isn't going to let game plans, coaches or CEOs/administration stand in his way - and other players can take a leaf out of his book.

Obviously we've also had injuries and an unsettled lineup this year - but we still got 1/2 a win more than Fremantle did in 2016, despite their million dollar coach and proven game plan.

Yes, but they played in a GF in 2013, tumbled down the ladder and have leapfrogged us again.

Which goes to prove that only 1 or two things need to go wrong and you go from a GF to a bottom team. We've had more than 1 or 2 things go wrong this year - we've copped a lot of injuries and didn't have a settled lineup all year - and the players that eventually returned -like Acres who was on track for a breakout year - didn't hit their straps. The way we've recruited - a scattergun approach with no plan over the last 10 or so years, where we've recruited the same types over and over - is not going to help us going forward.

Completely agree samoht

Everyone keeps banging on here about 'player development', as if with the right coaches, we could send 15 year olds onto the field, and they'd dominate.

It's just utter garbage.

- our list has no depth and utterly lacks X factor talent
- we haven't recruited role players
- injuries to guys like Roberton and Long who have real talent, exposed the playing group for what it is.
- Brown and Carlisle in the back are like witches hats they are so slow
- inept coach has his favorites that he plays week in week out no matter how absolutely sh*t they are...see Newnes
- our list is devoid of leaders. Geary as captain is laughable

And yet all I hear is 'player development'

Steele couldn't give a rat's ass about player development....he does what any good player does, and refines his craft with experience on the field

[The_Dud]

The reason we have ‘no cattle’ is because Richo and his team have done a piss poor job of developing our youngsters over the past 5 years.

What youngsters are those?
Newnes? Weller? Sinclair?

They couldn't f****** develop in a photo dark room

Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Lonie, Minchington, McCartin, Newnes, Webster, Bruce, Hickey, Pierce, Steele, Ross, Gresham, McKenzie, Sinclair, Weller, Membrey have all shown over the last few years (mostly before 2017) that they have the potential to be very good players, yet I would say almost none are consistantly in that category, that is 100% development. It would be almost statistically impossible to have ALL misses at the draft over that long a period.

And I feel for the likes of Long, Clarke, Coffield, Battle, Marshall, Phillips etc who I see heading down the same path.

Our club wide deplorable goal kicking is another indicator it’s something bigger than just individual players.

At other clubs i guarantee you a lot of those players would thrive.

[8bloggs]

well clarkson can take them to a top four finish. he'd have us playing a heck of a lot better than richo. knows his players and how to get the best out of them, and how to train them to play a successful game plan. richo has shown the exact opposite.

Received a bit of an inside running today - Ratten has brought in his assistant who was his data and stats man at Hawthorn along with him to the Saints. He is a lifelong St. Kilda supporter and apparently one of the absolute best going around in the industry. This is very good news.
As a St Kilda supporter, he is absolutely rapt to be at Moorabbin. Never underestimate the power of data and stats to improve performance. High performing teams pay great attention to detail. And you can bet that this guy has the intrinsic motivation to improve our results.

Glad to hear some science will be used to help improve what happens on field...we sure need it.

[prwilkinson]

well clarkson can take them to a top four finish. he'd have us playing a heck of a lot better than richo. knows his players and how to get the best out of them, and how to train them to play a successful game plan. richo has shown the exact opposite.

Received a bit of an inside running today - Ratten has brought in his assistant who was his data and stats man at Hawthorn along with him to the Saints. He is a lifelong St. Kilda supporter and apparently one of the absolute best going around in the industry. This is very good news.
As a St Kilda supporter, he is absolutely rapt to be at Moorabbin. Never underestimate the power of data and stats to improve performance. High performing teams pay great attention to detail. And you can bet that this guy has the intrinsic motivation to improve our results.

Great stuff!

[saintadamski]

The reason we have ‘no cattle’ is because Richo and his team have done a piss poor job of developing our youngsters over the past 5 years.

What youngsters are those?
Newnes? Weller? Sinclair?

They couldn't f****** develop in a photo dark room

Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Lonie, Minchington, McCartin, Newnes, Webster, Bruce, Hickey, Pierce, Steele, Ross, Gresham, McKenzie, Sinclair, Weller, Membrey have all shown over the last few years (mostly before 2017) that they have the potential to be very good players, yet I would say almost none are consistantly in that category, that is 100% development. It would be almost statistically impossible to have ALL misses at the draft over that long a period.

And I feel for the likes of Long, Clarke, Coffield, Battle, Marshall, Phillips etc who I see heading down the same path.

Our club wide deplorable goal kicking is another indicator it’s something bigger than just individual players.

At other clubs i guarantee you a lot of those players would thrive.

Most of thre names you have mentioned... especially Newnes, Weller and McCartin have shown jack sh*t

Gresh is fantastic, Acres has potential, and Membrey is solid...all keep.

Billings I think should be traded while he still has some residual value.

This unrelenting and irrational belief that we have an amazing young list that just needs 'development' will hold us at the bottom of the ladder for years to come.

Start recruiting kids with X factor who have mongrel in them.... and get rid of this f*cling ridiculous PC psychology test along with gender neutral toilets.

Start becoming a club to be feared!!

[BenLong#21]

Why do Weller, Savage and Newnes get picked every week if they're not doing what the coach is asking of them?

The coach is a soft touch who wants to be 'liked' more than he wants to be respected.

Same goes for Lethlean. Tough guy picking off soft targets and low hanging fruit like Minch, Freeman, Conellan and Goddard.
If Lethlean really wants to be seen as ruthless he needs to grow a set and do something about the entrenched mediocrity at the heart of club.
e.g. Richo, Sexton, Geary, Newnes, Savage, Weller, Armo etc.

The place is being run at a suburban Ammos standard the last 5 years.

[saintadamski]

Oh God this 'coach hasn't developed the players' Bullsh*t again?!?!
recruitment has been mind bendingly F*CKED

The list sucks...
No one will ever develop Newnes
No one will ever develop Savage
No one will ever develop Weller
etc etc etc

Keep recruiting talent like Gresh and Steele, and we might get somewhere

Why do Weller, Savage and Newnes get picked every week if they're not doing what the coach is asking of them?

The coach is a soft touch who wants to be 'liked' more than he wants be respected.

Same goes for Lethlean. Tough guy picking off soft targets and low hanging fruit like Minch, Freeman, Conellan and Goddard.
If Lethlean really wants to be seen as ruthless he needs to grow a set and do something about the entrenched mediocrity at the heart of club.
e.g. Richo, Sexton, Geary, Newnes, Savage, Weller, Armo etc.

The place is being run at a suburban Ammos standard the last 5 years.

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!

FINALLY SOME SENSE!

THANK YOU!!!!!

The only players delisted were basically VFL all year anyway.

Hard decisions HAVE NOT, I repeat HAVE NOT been made!

[SaintPav]

Can't fathom how Sexton has survived all these years.

What about Jamie Cox? Is he still there as well?

[Cairnsman]

HAwks - same coach for over a decade, gun players retired and replaced with average GOP's - out of the finals in straight sets.
A great coach does not a great team make!
Players can make the coach look a genius and also a dud. It seems every team needs enough A grade talent before you can judge a coach. I am as disappointed in the insipid Ricoh as anyone, but whether he stays or goes we will go nowhere without real talent.
We need to trade some of the better GOP's if it gets us that gun player - keep our high draft picks and stick to a strategy that will build that A grade core not be panicked into bringing in just who is available

Isn't it the biggest challenge most clubs have, and always have, and obviously the number of hands in the lolly bag increased when the new franchise teams joined.

Unfortunately the size of the lolly bag stays the same and that ain't going to change any time soon just because there are only 25 million lollies in the country.

However and luckily for us we are the only club in the market for high end talent.

But I've read on BF its all the fault of Richo and his game plan and the way he speaks.


The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

Gotta keep pluggin away with recruitment.

Gotta get an injury free ish list.

Gotta get continuity.

Slow and steady wins the race.

[SaintPav]

HAwks - same coach for over a decade, gun players retired and replaced with average GOP's - out of the finals in straight sets.
A great coach does not a great team make!
Players can make the coach look a genius and also a dud. It seems every team needs enough A grade talent before you can judge a coach. I am as disappointed in the insipid Ricoh as anyone, but whether he stays or goes we will go nowhere without real talent.
We need to trade some of the better GOP's if it gets us that gun player - keep our high draft picks and stick to a strategy that will build that A grade core not be panicked into bringing in just who is available

Isn't it the biggest challenge most clubs have, and always have, and obviously the number of hands in the lolly bag increased when the new franchise teams joined.

Unfortunately the size of the lolly bag stays the same and that ain't going to change any time soon just because there are only 25 million lollies in the country.

However and luckily for us we are the only club in the market for high end talent.

But I've read on BF its all the fault of Richo and his game plan and the way he speaks.


The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

Gotta keep pluggin away with recruitment.

Gotta get an injury free ish list.

Gotta get continuity.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Sure but this applies to all clubs and it still doesn't mean Richo can coach.

[BenLong#21]

Can't fathom how Sexton has survived all these years.

What about Jamie Cox? Is he still there as well?

http://www.saints.com.au/club/about/staff

Jamie Cox Head of Emerging Football Programs

Sexton is like a cockroach. If there is a zombie apocalypse I know where to turn because Sexton will know exactly what to do. The bloke can survive anything.

[freely]

well clarkson can take them to a top four finish. he'd have us playing a heck of a lot better than richo. knows his players and how to get the best out of them, and how to train them to play a successful game plan. richo has shown the exact opposite.

Received a bit of an inside running today - Ratten has brought in his assistant who was his data and stats man at Hawthorn along with him to the Saints. He is a lifelong St. Kilda supporter and apparently one of the absolute best going around in the industry. This is very good news.
As a St Kilda supporter, he is absolutely rapt to be at Moorabbin. Never underestimate the power of data and stats to improve performance. High performing teams pay great attention to detail. And you can bet that this guy has the intrinsic motivation to improve our results.

Great stuff!

+1 excellent news!

[Cairnsman]

Can't coach? Richo started at the club when the list was a basket case and finals were a possibility real late in the 2016 and 2017 seasons. What went right in those years? Well probably the fact we had a really good run with injury and so there was continuity and momentum. And you need a bit of luck on the injury front when you are a very young and developing side because you don't have depth of quality in your list. Depth of quality, what is it?

Richmond are proof of what happens when you have some luck on the injury front and can get continuity and momentum. And to really help matters they are having the same fortune in thier feeder team and so competition for spots in the 1s AND 2s is through the roof.

And apparently Hardwick can't coach either.

The head coach is the least of priorities for the club while they are trying to build depth of quality in the list.

The only coach that could help improve our club right now would be Clarko and only because of the gravitas he would bring and subsequent added attraction in recruitment. His game plan is probably not too dissimilar to Richos or the other 18 clubs becsuse despite the fascination and obsession with game plans, they would all be well known amoungst AFL coaches and so changing our game plan on it's own could be done without changing head coaches and really, does anyone else think this hasn't already been done?

So even the great Clarko might not help improve the club, with maybe only said recruiting gravitas being the only thing he could bring for the short term.

We need some good fortune with recruiting.

[SydneySainter]

It's not only the talent, we've recruited too many of the same types of players - and we're trying to fit 10 half back flankers into 2 positions, and 6 inside midfielders into 2 positions and 4-6 ruckmen into 1 position.
None of the recruits are A grade - but it looks like Steele is heading that way.

Steele isn't going to let game plans, coaches or CEOs/administration stand in his way - and other players can take a leaf out of his book.

Obviously we've also had injuries and an unsettled lineup this year - but we still got 1/2 a win more than Fremantle did in 2016, despite their million dollar coach and proven game plan.

Yes, but they played in a GF in 2013, tumbled down the ladder and have leapfrogged us again.

Which goes to prove that only 1 or two things need to go wrong and you go from a GF to a bottom team. We've had more than 1 or 2 things go wrong this year - we've copped a lot of injuries and didn't have a settled lineup all year - and the players that eventually returned -like Acres who was on track for a breakout year - didn't hit their straps. The way we've recruited - a scattergun approach with no plan over the last 10 or so years, where we've recruited the same types over and over - is not going to help us going forward.

Completely agree samoht

Everyone keeps banging on here about 'player development', as if with the right coaches, we could send 15 year olds onto the field, and they'd dominate.

It's just utter garbage.

- our list has no depth and utterly lacks X factor talent
- we haven't recruited role players
- injuries to guys like Roberton and Long who have real talent, exposed the playing group for what it is.
- Brown and Carlisle in the back are like witches hats they are so slow
- inept coach has his favorites that he plays week in week out no matter how absolutely sh*t they are...see Newnes
- our list is devoid of leaders. Geary as captain is laughable

And yet all I hear is 'player development'

Steele couldn't give a rat's ass about player development....he does what any good player does, and refines his craft with experience on the field

“Player Development” was supposed to be Richo’s strength at Port and a key factor as to why he was selected as coach for this ill-fated rebuild.

It’s what Pelchen still uses as his justification for nominating Richo.

[saintsRrising]

I hope that with the new president, we might see some clear, smart direction at the club.

Why?

New President, but is not new on the board.

He has been on the board since July 2016. Most of the board is exactly the same as it was.

[derby Street]

Can't fathom how Sexton has survived all these years.

What about Jamie Cox? Is he still there as well?

http://www.saints.com.au/club/about/staff

Jamie Cox Head of Emerging Football Programs

Sexton is like a cockroach. If there is a zombie apocalypse I know where to turn because Sexton will know exactly what to do. The bloke can survive anything.

That you Con?

[samuraisaint]

well clarkson can take them to a top four finish. he'd have us playing a heck of a lot better than richo. knows his players and how to get the best out of them, and how to train them to play a successful game plan. richo has shown the exact opposite.

Received a bit of an inside running today - Ratten has brought in his assistant who was his data and stats man at Hawthorn along with him to the Saints. He is a lifelong St. Kilda supporter and apparently one of the absolute best going around in the industry. This is very good news.
As a St Kilda supporter, he is absolutely rapt to be at Moorabbin. Never underestimate the power of data and stats to improve performance. High performing teams pay great attention to detail. And you can bet that this guy has the intrinsic motivation to improve our results.

Great stuff!

+1 excellent news!

This is the guy I was talking about: Darren O'Shaughnessy
http://www.saints.com.au/news/2018-09-2 ... ter-saints

[Harvey To Hayes]

Which goes to prove that only 1 or two things need to go wrong and you go from a GF to a bottom team. We've had more than 1 or 2 things go wrong this year - we've copped a lot of injuries and didn't have a settled lineup all year - and the players that eventually returned -like Acres who was on track for a breakout year - didn't hit their straps. The way we've recruited - a scattergun approach with no plan over the last 10 or so years, where we've recruited the same types over and over - is not going to help us going forward.

What happened to that Pelchen blueprint we were supposedly following for a few years to assemble a premiership-contending list? Did we just write it off when he left?