Hi Saintsational......again. Its been a long time!

[SENsei]

I hope this thread doesn't click over to 19 pages. Seems right that a GT thread should stop on 18.

[SENsei]

Hahaha....

[Saints43]

Still maintain that list he had at his disposal had a lovely blend of hardened bodies and star kid talent on the way up......cant believe we didnt get a flag.

You can't believe we didn't get a flag or are bitterly disappointed we didn't get a flag?

I would have thought competing against teams with salary cap concessions, the merged Fitzroy/Brisbane list and Port who'd finished on top of the ladder three years in a row would make it reasonably easy to believe.

[White Winmar]

I can't believe it either, Teflon. That list in 2004-5 was one of the best I've seen in 40 years of following football. IMHO it was by far the best list ever assembled by St.Kilda. A perfect match of experience and young talent. I think we could have done at least as well as Geelong and snared 3 flags over the past decade, but alas, we did the usual "St.Kilda thing" and blew it. Too many big egos, not enough expertise where it was needed and before you knew it we were changing coaches, again, and by that time, the once mighty list was heading south at a rate of knots. The fact that RL was somehow able to squeeze a couple of Grand Finals out of what was left, combined with his now infamous "role players", is a testament to his ability as a coach and strategist.

While I appreciate the efforts of the those involved in the Butterss regime, including GT, the fact remains that while they did win respect for the club and made it competitive, they also failed to deliver the ultimate prize. I think the so-called "belief clouds" were more of a smoke screen that disguised some obvious excesses.
First, there was the Blight fiasco, in which they did the typical St.Kilda thing and went with the Messiah complex that has always dogged this club. They threw a couple of million dollars at a man who had previously shown open contempt for the club and who was, to put it mildly, struggling psychologically. Some even suggested he may have been mentally ill. John Reid, his good friend from the crows, openly expressed his concern, while Caroline Wilson posed the question on numerous occasions. Despite this and a failure to do any due dilligence on the man, he was hired amid great fanfare and backslapping. It would not be the first time the regime indulged itself instead of conducting a thorough process when appointing a coach. At least they had the balls to sack him before he tore the club apart. If half the stories I heard from people who worked directly with Blight are true, they should have not only sacked him, but demanded their money back. I posed the question to GT on here as to why, according to himself, he would've kept Blight on and would've argued with the Board to keep him. He did not bother to reply, which of course is his right, but I found it interesting that he answered my previous query, which allowed him to indulge in a classical piece of Thommo revisionism. Interesting.

Then came the fiasco of GT's appointment. This is the part that pisses me off more than anything the regime did. They treated the supporters, members, media and sponsors like fools. RB and GT lied to us directly with the nonsense that a thorough search and selection process had been conducted to find the best available coach. To everyone's surprise, that person turned out to be a rookie, with no immediate experience of the AFL coaching regime. On top of that, this rookie was paid a reported $500,000 per year (remember it was over a decade ago now), meaning he was one of the highest paid coaches in the competition. Can you imagine such an appointment being made today? It took years for the truth to come out, even if we knew it all along. GT seemed like a naughty schoolboy when admitting it and it seems he was forgiven by the vast majority. IMHO it was outrageous, narcisstic and egotistical in the extreme and predictably it ended badly, when the once great mates fell out. As the great poet Rabbie Burns wrote, "Oh what a wicked web we weave, when first we practice to decieve."

While lamenting the fact that there wasn't enough money and resources to implement what GT wanted, there always seemed to be enough money to pay the coach an exorbitant amount. The recruiting budget at the time was around $70K per year, making it a miracle that JB could do his job at all. The next great deception was that the injury management wasn't appalling. I recall going to rehab at Cheltenham physio and seeing several saints sitting in the waiting room, waiting and waiting and waiting. One player lamented that he had seen several different physios during his rehab, including a couple of students working under supervision. Marvellous. Then again, they had to save dollars because of the lack of resources. Except when it came to the rookie coach's pay packet.

GT also wrote on here recently that most of the major injuries during his time were unavoidable as they were due to "collision type" incidents. Really? Is that why they ripped up the "spongy" Moorabbin surface and relaid it in an attempt to resolve the soft tissue injury curse? Is that why they had a PhD student in residence, whose thesis was examining the cause of soft tissue, especially hamstring injuries? Is that why there was a revolving door when it came to the hiring and firing of fitness and conditioning people? I seem to recall Harvey, Jones, Hudghton, X and others constantly going down with hamstring strains. Is that why RL, upon coming to the saints, described the list as being in the worst physical condition of any list he'd worked with? Is that why it took Dave Misson at least 2 preseasons to get the list into shape? And isn't it curious that most of our soft tissue injury woes seemed to dramatically decrease under his guidance?

Which brings me to the last point. Instead of contending in 2006-7-8, (even though we made the finals twice and one preliminary) we were well off winning a premiership. Apart from the obvious misses in '04-'05, those three years were the one's we should've dominated. Instead our list was in poor physical shape and the core from the nineties started to deteriorate. I know RL was in charge for two of those years, but they were spent rebuilding and undoing the damage of the years before he took over. That's why I'm pissed off with GT. Don't even get me started on the control he exerted over every aspect of the football department. Indulgence before the club, the individual before the club. Dissenters, including a couple of club legends left because they would not be heard. So in the end we didn't get what we paid for. We should've been able to afford the best in the business. A proven coach who would have been handed a list that was the football equivalent of Elle McPherson. A list that the Pelican, when he was at Hawthorn in 2006, described as the best in the competition, talent wise. All we got for our millions spent recklessly, was a couple of preliminary finals. Some on here will drink GT's bathwater and believe anything he says. I'm not one of them

[cwrcyn]

I don't give a rats tossbag about GTs appointment process. On this issue, the media and the rest of the football world can go and get stuffed. In that moment the club truly stood up for itself and what it believed in. Butterss and Thomas were a fine team at that point and gave us a steely resolve that was desperately needed.







.

[sunsaint]

Everything that White Winmar wrote.
I disagree with.

[Spinner]

Everything that White Winmar wrote.
I disagree with.

I disagree with everything written in this post.

WW - On the money.

[asiu]

i didn't give a rats about the process either.
... they did what had to be done.

500 big ones is a fair wack though,
on that point i'd like to hear / know the total job description.

[White Winmar]

Everything that White Winmar wrote.
I disagree with.

Which bits are factually wrong? All of them? The size of the paycheck? The money wasted on Blight? The lies about his appointment process? The appalling injury toll and lack of management. The control freak allegations? All of these things seem to be on the public record. You have sipped from GT's substantial bullshyte well. Enjoy! He's made a career out of fooling the gullible.

[sunsaint]

Everything that White Winmar wrote.
I disagree with.

Which bits are factually wrong? All of them? The size of the paycheck? The money wasted on Blight? The lies about his appointment process? The appalling injury toll and lack of management. The control freak allegations? All of these things seem to be on the public record. You have sipped from GT's substantial bullshyte well. Enjoy! He's made a career out of fooling the gullible.

seriously I never sip from anyones bulls*** well as you so eloquently put it
fact? you state things as opinion, your opinion nothing more.
GT's Paycheck ? He wore several hats at the same time.
Money wasted on Blight? Yes in the wash up of his short tenure, but no one, NO ONE was screaming about his paycheck before he was sacked. The club enticed and got the very best credentialed coached available at the time.
Injury toll? Young bodies when pushed too hard, too early will often break, the best resourced/staffed clubs can have embarrassingly bad (essendon 2012) soft tissue injuries today when the level of medical treatments & professionalism have gone to a whole new level
Control freak allegations? Well now you are just being disrespectful to Mr Lyon.

[White Winmar]

Thanks for your response. Denial is not an argument. I don't expect you to agree with me, but at least have the integrity to distinguish between fact and opinion.

[st.byron]

Everything that White Winmar wrote.
I disagree with.

I disagree with everything written in this post.

WW - On the money.

Agree. Eloquently put WW.

[Scollop]

Thanks for your response. Denial is not an argument. I don't expect you to agree with me, but at least have the integrity to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Your opinion is that RL was a better coach than GT. My opinion and many others is that the culture, team ethos and the legacy left behind by GT has had a far greater and more positive impact on the Saints FC than that of RL's tenure. My opinion is that GT is a better coach.

There are many doubts as to the coaching talents of RL and GT and Rodney Eade - for that matter. These 3 coaches in the past decade have not won any silverware. Fact is they are coaches who many believed had teams that were capable, but ultimately they fell short.

[plugger66]

Thanks for your response. Denial is not an argument. I don't expect you to agree with me, but at least have the integrity to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Your opinion is that RL was a better coach than GT. My opinion and many others is that the culture, team ethos and the legacy left behind by GT has had a far greater and more positive impact on the Saints FC than that of RL's tenure. My opinion is that GT is a better coach.

There are many doubts as to the coaching talents of RL and GT and Rodney Eade - for that matter. These 3 coaches in the past decade have not won any silverware. Fact is they are coaches who many believed had teams that were capable, but ultimately they fell short.

I have no doubt RL was a much better coach than GT but in GT defence he had much less money to work with in the footy department. There actually arent many doubts of the coaching talent of RL from people in the media who have bugger all bias. He is clearly rated in the top 3 by just about everyone in the media.

Whilst i dont agree with all things WW said there is no doubt the list was much better in 2004 than 2009 except for our now experienced players not quite being experienced enough in 2004 which cost us dearly.

[bergholt]

Which bits are factually wrong?

Dunno about the rest, but the Robbie Burns quote was actually Sir Walter Scott:

"Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!"

[markp]

Unpleasant reading but not an unfair account, WW.

And I don't think anyones's mentioned holiday pay.

[White Winmar]

[quote="bergholt"][quote="White Winmar"]Which bits are factually wrong?[/quote]

Dunno about the rest, but the Robbie Burns quote was actually Sir Walter Scott:

"Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!"[/quote]
My bad, Bergholt. Blame Justice Phillip Cummins, who opened a sentencing in the Supreme Court with the quote and attributed it to the great scot, Burns. Looks like I got the wrong Scott! Should've checked my sources first.

[White Winmar]

Often mistakenly attributed to The Bard, apparently.

[White Winmar]

Unpleasant reading but not an unfair account, WW.

And I don't think anyones's mentioned holiday pay.

Yes, markp, I wasn't going to go there. He was quite entitled to it as the court found, but it was an ugly full stop to a sad chapter in the whole saga.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Did he really get paid $500K per season? Is that on the public record somewhere?

[markp]

Did he really get paid $500K per season? Is that on the public record somewhere?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/th ... 1116825928

Thomas awarded $205,000 as his St Kilda soap opera draws to a close
BY:STEPHEN RIELLY From:The Australian July 05, 2008 12:00AM


ST KILDA and former coach Grant Thomas have finally disentangled themselves, with their expensive 21-month soap opera brought to a conclusion in the Victorian County Court yesterday.

As the finale to one of football's longest-running sagas, it was brief and cool, quite unlike the early afternoon hours of the day in September 2006 when Thomas was unexpectedly sacked.

The outcome, too, was very different. Thomas, the bitter party when his AFL coaching career was effectively finished by St Kilda's decision, was awarded more than $205,000, which meant that it had cost the Saints more than $500,000 to rid themselves of him.

Thomas was paid six months salary, or $270,000, upon his dismissal. But Judge Katherine Bourke found he was also entitled to $90,000 of unpaid annual leave, a further $100,000 as part of a non-disparagement agreement and interest of just over $15,000. Costs may also be awarded against the club.


"The judge has made a decision and we're happy with the decision. We're thrilled the situation is finally closed. That's the end of it," Thomas said outside court.

St Kilda said later that an appeal will be considered, in all likelihood once director and lawyer Ross Levine, who is on holidays in Italy, and chief executive Archie Fraser, who is in Vanuatu, return. A board meeting is scheduled for later in the month.

Sources indicated yesterday, however, that given the amount at stake and the fact that it would mean entangling the club again in something it has been very keen to extricate itself from, even complete success may not be worth the trouble or expense of an appeal.

The club's desire to consign the conflict to the past was made clear late last year when three attempts to settle with Thomas were made before Christmas. The last of them was an offer of $120,000.

Westaway and the majority of his board can absolve themselves of any blame in the matter, as they attempted to do yesterday. Thomas was sacked by his predecessor, Rod Butterss, who was ousted in October last year.

While Levine and fellow director John Gdanski, along with Fraser, were at the club at the time of Thomas' dismissal, it is understood that Butterss and former director Mark Kellett were responsible for the offer of the $100,000 non-disparagement or "hush money" deal which was one of the matters contested in court.

Thomas was promised payment of the $100,000 to his company, GDT Solutions, in April last year if he refrained from destabilising the club, observed confidences and did not try to lure players from the club. Butterss accused Thomas of failing to honour these conditions and withheld the money.

At one point the former president described Thomas as a "virus" and accused him of meddling in the affairs of certain players and of trying to maintain relationships with them that were unhelpful to St Kilda, specifically new coach Ross Lyon.

Judge Bourke disagreed and wondered why Butterss was not called to give evidence.

"Thomas has performed and observed all of his obligations in respect of non-disparagement, non-poaching and confidentiality. The club has never suggested or run a case to the contrary," Judge Bourke said in her judgment.

Westaway's statement drew attention to the fact that the decision to sack Thomas and the issues he subsequently took to court belonged to his predecessor's time.

The once firm but eventually poisonous relationship between Butterss and Thomas was a thread woven through the drama.

It was Butterss who appointed Thomas coach in 2001 after Malcolm Blight was sacked. The same year, he personally loaned the new coach more than $1million for the purchase of a home around the corner from his.

By late 2004, however, their relationship was clearly suffering. They publicly acknowledged as much in 2005, the year of the club's second consecutive preliminary final defeat.

By 2006 they were barely civil to one another and Butterss started attempts to recoup the money he loaned Thomas five years earlier. After losing an elimination final to Melbourne in early September, Thomas was summoned to Butterss home several days later and told he was being dismissed.

Butterss eventually settled his personal legal matter with Thomas in the middle of last year, months before he agreed to step down as president in the face of electoral defeat.

I guess that makes it $540k pa.

I'd forgotten about the $100k 'non-disparagement agreement'.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Cheers.

[tweedaletomanning]

Geez this club is good at throwing money down the toilet.

[mr six o'clock]

I'm interested in a rat's toss bag !

What exactly is one ?
what does said rat keep in it's toss bag ? (obviously other than toss )
what is toss ?
where can i purchase one of these bags ?

[kimberly saint]

He's not coming back is he