Post your apologies to Clinton Jones here...

[saintsRrising]

CJ had a great game - mostly because he realised he had to lead, rather than follow.

When he had to bust a pack, and throw it on the boot, he did.

When there was an easy sideways kick, he didn't fluff it.

He never went for anything too complicated. He just kept gut-running from stoppage to stoppage.

He also showed great physical strength in contested situations.

He played a smart game, not an instinctive one - and that's what stood him apart tonight.

This is the key to Clint's disposal. Keep it simple.

I reckon Clint gets bad raps because he looks awkward. What might be seen as a nicely weighted pass from anyone else is seen as a hospital pass from Clint. That ugly kick backwards by Clint would be a nice switch of play from Jimmy Gwilt.

I've rewatched the first quarter with particular emphasis on Clint and his disposals. I just can't see the problems that Dragit and Roskilde saw early in the game.

Exactly.

Because many of his kicks look awkward, they are often judged to ineffective even when they have been.

Many of his disposals are made under hot pressure too. With little time to think.

As for too many short licks. Banger based his career on short-kicking. Smart players know their limitations, and play to them.

[dragit]

Unusual reading?

Elliptical range-rover hedgehog neo lumber precipice squadron.

[Johnny Favier]

Once again showed his value to the Club while the rest of us tap away on our computers nit-picking his every move. He always gives his all; tonight he was outstanding. Clubs might start tagging him instead if the other way around. Great game CJ.

Spot on.

Absolute workhorse and must be a coach's dream to have in the side.
Always does what's asked of him and plenty more.

Ok so he's not the most gifted player, but full of heart and I'd rather have him in our side than a guy like Jack Watts floating around picking up cheap possessions.

Go Jonesy - you're wearing the red, white and black, and that's good enough for me son.

[BigMart]

Hasen't he been one of our best performed consistent players since 2009?

He has player very few poor games IMO and many good ones...

His ball winning ability is huge, but Ross put him in a role so he didn't win too much footy... For obvious reasons

Again, he is comfortably in our best midfield group! Silly to think otherwise?!

The worse thing he's done at StK is set fire to a Dwarfe ..... His footy has been admirable

[saintsRrising]

The worse thing he's done at StK is set fire to a Dwarfe ..... His footy has been admirable

Eaxctly...

[saintsRrising]

Plus with the kids coming in and on...your need some hard-bodied mids like CJ to protect them.

[StPeter]

I am amazed at the constant negativity on this site about Clint. He has always been one of my favourites and should be one of the first selected.

I was not surprised by last night's stand-out game. I knew he would be the mid- fielder to step up to the plate. Unbelievable people on here saying he shouldn't have been selected.

[minneapolis]

Unusual reading?

Elliptical range-rover hedgehog neo lumber precipice squadron.

I have one of those in my garage right next to my snowblower.

[dragit]

CJ had a great game - mostly because he realised he had to lead, rather than follow.

When he had to bust a pack, and throw it on the boot, he did.

When there was an easy sideways kick, he didn't fluff it.

He never went for anything too complicated. He just kept gut-running from stoppage to stoppage.

He also showed great physical strength in contested situations.

He played a smart game, not an instinctive one - and that's what stood him apart tonight.

This is the key to Clint's disposal. Keep it simple.

I reckon Clint gets bad raps because he looks awkward. What might be seen as a nicely weighted pass from anyone else is seen as a hospital pass from Clint. That ugly kick backwards by Clint would be a nice switch of play from Jimmy Gwilt.

I've rewatched the first quarter with particular emphasis on Clint and his disposals. I just can't see the problems that Dragit and Roskilde saw early in the game.

I watched through the first quarter again, and his disposal wasn't as bad as I had thought at the time… one shocking kick to Riewoldt which should have been a simple 20M pass, but all players have clangers.

I will say though that the difference you are describing between a Gwilt "well weighted pass" and Clint's kicking is not just a visual one. A well-weighted pass travels reasonably low so that the only player who can get first hands on the ball is the player you are kicking to. Whereas most of CJ's kicks, even when they end up in the right area, they are looping passes… which makes a massive difference when the pressure is on, it gives your opponents a much greater opportunity to spoil or take possession themselves. Even when you are kicking to an uncontested situation, like kicking backwards for a switch, the longer the ball hangs in the air, the more time the opposition has to adjust their set-up.

In the end though, he was clearly one of the best players on the ground, I had him slightly behind Roo as I felt he was the difference in the end. I'm still mindful of the fact that we were playing the worst side of the last decade, and I still believe that Clint will be on the fringe going forward… when the pressure of sides like Hawthorn and Fremantle come, looping kicks & putting your team-mates under pressure will result in fast goals the wrong way.

Being in our "best 22" isn't always the only factor to be considered at the moment. As I have mentioned before, Polo, Peake & Clarke could easily be in our "best 22" if they were still on the list, but we are re-building and the focus is on the next crop more than getting a couple more wins this year.

[Beno88]

CJ played a ripper on Saturday night, no question. He's been among our better players for at least the last 5-6 seasons now and although he has limited talent, his effort can't be questioned.

However, there is no way St Kilda supporters should be apologising for knocking him. His moment of stupidity last year forced the entire playing group to apologise to members and plastered us all over the news for the wrong reasons just when we thought those issues were behind us.

Clint owes something back to the footy club and he's certainly going the right way about it. I hope he has a great year.

[vacuous space]

... we are re-building and the focus is on the next crop more than getting a couple more wins this year.

The kids aren't going to get a much better example of workrate than Jonesy's effort Saturday night. Maybe Roo, but I suspect most are in awe of Rooey. Jones is a normal player, coming from further back who has got everything he has from workrate. Having guys like him and even Curren around is invaluable in terms of providing an example for the younger players. Jones likely has many more talented contemporaries who are out of the footy by now. He's likely to get either two or three votes for that game. Who knows what the future holds for Jones? It may just be that Andy's wacky interchange may have created a league that suits Jones perfectly.

I don't know about your loopy kick explanation either. Short disposals that put teammates under pressure aren't counted as effective. If Jones was making a lot of high risk kicks then that would likely show up in his stats somewhere. I agree with KFT that Jones has always played within his limits. His kicking style looks strange, but he doesn't turn it over more than his teammates. He's been a solid contributor for a long time. I think most of his detractors are fixated on his kicking style with little tangible evidence that it's bad rather than odd. As he becomes older and it becomes more 'about the kids' there are more people trying to push him overboard for their favourite teenager. I am diametrically opposed to this view. Most kids wind up nothing. I'd rather keep playing Jones until someone forces him out.

[dragit]

Short disposals that put teammates under pressure aren't counted as effective.

Surely this can't be right? How do the statisticians measure pressure?
If a kick is marked by a team-mate, surely that would be counted as effective… but it doesn't say anything about how hard the player has had to work in order to take the mark.
If a handball hits a team-mate who is under pressure, but he is good enough to move the ball on, surely the first hand-ball is registered as effective?
Some things you can only get from watching the game, unless you think Clint Jones has better disposal than Ablett, Fyfe & Judd? which disposal efficiency would suggest without context.

Agree on Clint's work-rate & effort though, no finer example.

[Sobraz]

I was discussing this the other night with a mate.

Colin Sylvia v Clint Jones.

From the outside it is a no brainer, Silvia has Jones covered in every 'skill' catagory. High draft pick v a rookie.

Yet evaluating their careers, Jones is light years ahead IMO, and it's safe to suggest once they're both retired there will be no argument..

Clint deserves an enormous amount of credit for the career he has created. He continually proves his critics, including myself, wrong, and works harder than anyone else to be better than the best he could be. Where guys like Sylvia just plod along and waste what opportunity they've had.. Creates the perfect example for the kids who will soon lead us back up the ladder...

[gringo]

I was discussing this the other night with a mate.

Colin Sylvia v Clint Jones.

From the outside it is a no brainer, Silvia has Jones covered in every 'skill' catagory. High draft pick v a rookie.

Yet evaluating their careers, Jones is light years ahead IMO, and it's safe to suggest once they're both retired there will be no argument..

Clint deserves an enormous amount of credit for the career he has created. He continually proves his critics, including myself, wrong, and works harder than anyone else to be better than the best he could be. Where guys like Sylvia just plod along and waste what opportunity they've had.. Creates the perfect example for the kids who will soon lead us back up the ladder...

I still think any one who bags him needs to get to a game and watch the amount of work he does off the ball. he is Rooey like in his gut running. I'm fairly partial to guys with lesser skills and higher work rates as they milk every drop and don't coast. If the worst he does is set a training standard he's a great asset. Silvia is a great example of a guy who forgot to get runs on the board before deciding he had.

[vacuous space]

How do the statisticians measure pressure?

Contested possessions. A short kick to a contest isn't going to be deemed effective no matter the outcome. A mark on lead will be. A handball has to lead to an uncontested possession to be deemed effective.

Efficiency without context doesn't indicate that anybody's disposal is 'better' than anyone else's. Just more 'effective', whatever it's worth. I don't think anyone would advocate using it without context. I brought it up because, I believe, if Jones was practicing high risk behaviour with the footy, it would show in efficiency stats. Compared with players who had similar amount of contested footy and kick-to-handball ratio, (like, say, Luke Parker) his efficiency (69%) and clanger count (38 from disposal) last year was wholly unremarkable. Not great; not bad.

If there's something that the stats can't tell you that you can only get through watching, I'd like to know what it is. I've watched every game he's ever played for the club and I would consider him to be a limited player who plays within his limits. I think certain people have been biased against him from day one because of the awkward kicking style and, as I said before, I think he's now suffering from an anti-age bias. The people who want great kicks want him out and the people who want more kids want him out. I don't think those people need to apologise. I pity any supporter who doesn't revel in any great performance from any player who pulls on the jumper.

[dragit]

How do the statisticians measure pressure?

Contested possessions. A short kick to a contest isn't going to be deemed effective no matter the outcome. A mark on lead will be. A handball has to lead to an uncontested possession to be deemed effective.

Efficiency without context doesn't indicate that anybody's disposal is 'better' than anyone else's. Just more 'effective', whatever it's worth. I don't think anyone would advocate using it without context. I brought it up because, I believe, if Jones was practicing high risk behaviour with the footy, it would show in efficiency stats. Compared with players who had similar amount of contested footy and kick-to-handball ratio, (like, say, Luke Parker) his efficiency (69%) and clanger count (38 from disposal) last year was wholly unremarkable. Not great; not bad.

If there's something that the stats can't tell you that you can only get through watching, I'd like to know what it is. I've watched every game he's ever played for the club and I would consider him to be a limited player who plays within his limits. I think certain people have been biased against him from day one because of the awkward kicking style and, as I said before, I think he's now suffering from an anti-age bias. The people who want great kicks want him out and the people who want more kids want him out. I don't think those people need to apologise. I pity any supporter who doesn't revel in any great performance from any player who pulls on the jumper.

Thanks for the run-down… and agree with what you've said

I think people do point to disposal efficiency as a measure of how well a player is using the footy, which as you mentioned is flawed without context…
2013 %
jones 69
ablett 67
judd 64
fyfe 63
No sane person would suggest that Clint is a better user of the footy than the other 3. Understanding his limitations, he will often chip the ball backwards to a man on his own… these kicks obviously increase your efficiency %, but don't increase the teams chances of scoring.

There is no stat for disposal quality, which would be impossible to measure but clearly, players like Pendlebury and Dangerfield are lethal with the ball even if their overall efficiency % is around the same mark as Zac Dawson. I also think that a disposal classed as effective, can still put a team-mate under more pressure than is necessary… depending how long the ball hangs in the air. Others seem to refute this notion though.

I do find watching CJ frustrating at times, but it doesn't mean I don't like him or recognise his incredible work rate. Riewoldt can be extremely frustrating to watch too, if his goal kicking is off. While CJ has been dropped briefly the past couple of seasons, he is an incredible fighter… earnt his way back and last Saturday's performance obviously thrilled the new coach. I certainly don't begrudge his spot in the side if he continues to play like that, though playing against the better sides it will obviously be a lot harder with the pressure that comes.

As I mentioned in the Maister thread, I hate nothing more than hearing bronx cheers for any Saints player, however critiquing players on a fan forum is completely different IMO, we all have our biases, no doubt.

[whiskers3614]

Sorry Clint, I let you down badly.
You should have gone to Big Mart's school and gotten elite kicking skills like Siposs.
You might have only gotten 3 kicks a week, but boy would they would have been elegantly executed.
Regretfully yours
I.M SCRUBBYKICK
(3rd form sports teacher W.A)

[BigMart]

Arryn was a very good kick before he set foot in my old school

He was a natural... Even as a 13yo at 16 he was elite.... Just because he grew, and played footy every day

In the best 5 kicks I have been associated with....