We're on Track

[saintadamski]

what is middle aged exactly?
Jack Steven is 28...is that middle aged?
Geary is 30 - is that middle aged?
Gilbert is 31 - middle aged?
Savage is 27 - middle aged?
So is Senior between 35 and 45?...I'm confused

Who are our "really good middle aged guys" exactly?

I think when Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Bruce, Membrey and Hickey are the 'old guys', and McCartin, Acres, Gresham, Billings, Steele, Long, Webster, Sinclair, White and Marshall are the middle aged core - we'll have Hunter-Clarke, Coffield and whoever we draft this year and next as our young guys.

That's realistically when we'll be any good. And I think we're well and truly still on track in that sense.

I think an easy draw, no injuries and Nick Riewoldt gave fans a false sense of our development and tricked people into forgetting that we're still rebuilding.

So let me get this straight
You believe that Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Bruce, Membrey and Hickey as 'old guys' will lead us to a glorious flag?
and in that 'middle aged core' you think guys like Billings , Steele and Sinclair will become incredible players holding aloft the holy grail?

hahaha

Gresh, Acres, Long, and Webster are good though - but not enough

[rodgerfox]

what is middle aged exactly?
Jack Steven is 28...is that middle aged?
Geary is 30 - is that middle aged?
Gilbert is 31 - middle aged?
Savage is 27 - middle aged?
So is Senior between 35 and 45?...I'm confused

Who are our "really good middle aged guys" exactly?

I think when Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Bruce, Membrey and Hickey are the 'old guys', and McCartin, Acres, Gresham, Billings, Steele, Long, Webster, Sinclair, White and Marshall are the middle aged core - we'll have Hunter-Clarke, Coffield and whoever we draft this year and next as our young guys.

That's realistically when we'll be any good. And I think we're well and truly still on track in that sense.

I think an easy draw, no injuries and Nick Riewoldt gave fans a false sense of our development and tricked people into forgetting that we're still rebuilding.

So let me get this straight
You believe that Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Bruce, Membrey and Hickey as 'old guys' will lead us to a glorious flag?
and in that 'middle aged core' you think guys like Billings , Steele and Sinclair will become incredible players holding aloft the holy grail?

hahaha

Gresh, Acres, Long, and Webster are good though - but not enough

I think you're missing my point.

[chico2001]

yeah Rodger, adamski has asked the right question, what is this middle aged thing? Most importantly that list you gave...ha...only one topliner in it.

And you asked the wrong one regarding other teams rebuilds. Melbourne so far have got the right mix of good players although the season is only half over , my point is that we are miles behind Melbourne....miles. Just compare the players for starters, only 2-3 saints would get a game with Melbourne. Most of their players would walk up start to the saints line -up.

[stonecold]

Paddy in the seconds wouldn't help IMO, isn't he way too good for VFL standard. Isn't the best outcome for his fitness and development to play out the whole year without interruption, and hopefully with Bruce and Members along side him.

If that happens I recon we will see some cause for optimism towards the end of the season.

Bookmark this.

Is Paddy too good for VFL though? The times he has played there when he has been fit he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. From what I have seen of Battle he is a better mark, better kick and a much better athlete than Paddy is capable of being.

Battle is a better all round athlete - I rate him in much higher esteem - in fact, I think he will be a gun

Paddy had to kick a bag to get back in last year, Battle hasn't done that yet!!!!!

I have watched Josh since under 15's (closely), he may make it, but he won't be a gun!!!!!

[rodgerfox]

yeah Rodger, adamski has asked the right question, what is this middle aged thing? Most importantly that list you gave...ha...only one topliner in it.

And you asked the wrong one regarding other teams rebuilds. Melbourne so far have got the right mix of good players although the season is only half over , my point is that we are miles behind Melbourne....miles. Just compare the players for starters, only 2-3 saints would get a game with Melbourne. Most of their players would walk up start to the saints line -up.

We are miles behind Melbourne, because we started our rebuild well after they did.

And, they had to add Melksham, Hibberd, Lewis, Vince and Garlett from other clubs.

They finished 13th in 2015. Only now are they starting to look like a decent team.


Why are we supposed to rebuild freakishly fast?

[rodgerfox]

yeah Rodger, adamski has asked the right question, what is this middle aged thing?

Middle aged thing?

I'd have thought that it's guys around that 22-26 age bracket.

[SaintPav]

Reckon Melbourne have had at least 2 rebuilds since Neil Daniher left in 2007 plus a mini rebuild somewhere.

[rodgerfox]

I think rebuilds always depend on your senior players.

You can rebuild around them.

It's when you have rubbish senior players that rebuilding takes time.

Unfortunately, that's where we're at.

So we just have to wait. It's on track.

[Wayne42]

I'm not sure about us being on track, i think we've lost our way.

Unless changes are made at season's end, We're on the road to nowhere, well off track.

[saintadamski]

So if your theory is that Middle aged players are 22-26
This means that we already have a group of 'old guys' that are the following:

Armitage, Hickey, Geary , Gilbert, Savage, Steven, Brown

If we are supposed to build around this group, then welcome to Armageddon people.

and... then the players we are 'hoping' to rebuild with... Billings, Newnes, Weller, Steele, Marshall, Lonie, Sinclair, McCartin.....O...M....F.....G

CUE BENNY HILL SOUNDTRACK!!!

Yep On the right track...The Benny Hill Sound 'TRACK' ....toot toot!! lmao

[David-Lee]

Paddy in the seconds wouldn't help IMO, isn't he way too good for VFL standard. Isn't the best outcome for his fitness and development to play out the whole year without interruption, and hopefully with Bruce and Members along side him.

If that happens I recon we will see some cause for optimism towards the end of the season.

Bookmark this.

Is Paddy too good for VFL though? The times he has played there when he has been fit he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. From what I have seen of Battle he is a better mark, better kick and a much better athlete than Paddy is capable of being.

Battle is a better all round athlete - I rate him in much higher esteem - in fact, I think he will be a gun

Paddy had to kick a bag to get back in last year, Battle hasn't done that yet!!!!!

I have watched Josh since under 15's (closely), he may make it, but he won't be a gun!!!!!

Did I miss a game? When did Paddy ever kick a bag? Do you mean the 3 he kicked against GWS?
Is that a bag now? On a totally separate note...
I thought 5 + was a bag?
But Dermie said a player kicked a bag and he had 3 for the game! Is a bag 3+?

[rodgerfox]

So if your theory is that Middle aged players are 22-26
This means that we already have a group of 'old guys' that are the following:

Armitage, Hickey, Geary , Gilbert, Savage, Steven, Brown

If we are supposed to build around this group, then welcome to Armageddon people.

Ummm yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

How can anyone rebuild with that senior group? You can't.


And I don't think we'd be expected to.

That's why we won't offer much competitiveness until our next senior group moves through.

[rodgerfox]

Paddy in the seconds wouldn't help IMO, isn't he way too good for VFL standard. Isn't the best outcome for his fitness and development to play out the whole year without interruption, and hopefully with Bruce and Members along side him.

If that happens I recon we will see some cause for optimism towards the end of the season.

Bookmark this.

Is Paddy too good for VFL though? The times he has played there when he has been fit he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. From what I have seen of Battle he is a better mark, better kick and a much better athlete than Paddy is capable of being.

Battle is a better all round athlete - I rate him in much higher esteem - in fact, I think he will be a gun

Paddy had to kick a bag to get back in last year, Battle hasn't done that yet!!!!!

I have watched Josh since under 15's (closely), he may make it, but he won't be a gun!!!!!

Did I miss a game? When did Paddy ever kick a bag? Do you mean the 3 he kicked against GWS?
Is that a bag now? On a totally separate note...
I thought 5 + was a bag?
But Dermie said a player kicked a bag and he had 3 for the game! Is a bag 3+?

I think he was saying that Paddy had to kick that bag of 7 in the ressies to get his spot back.

[saintspremiers]

A lot of people have forgotten how small our injury list was the past 2 seasons. It was freakishly small, plus the Roo factor & fixture all evelated the club around 4 places up the ladder.

So that inflated player egos, the club were too blind to see this and appear to have thought all was good.

It also deleievred worse draft picks (although trout would’ve stuffed it up regardless!).

In a nutshelll, 2016 and 2017 did more harm than good in hindsight.

Just because we had a small injury list shouldn’t have meant Richo was loathe to bring in more new players. He hates making unforced selection changes. Good clubs keep bringing in new players even when in the eight!

Richo would be in his comfort zone making zero changes every week if he could get away with it. Injuries and form have forced his hand this year and he’s lost.

[nw7]

I really felt we went off track when we traded for Koby Stevens and Jack Steele. It didnt make sense. These 2 gave us nothing different, 2 more slowish mids. Both good players but they didnt improve our list. And now we know that Richo loves having 4 slow mids in the mix every week and we get thrashed with run and carry.

[To the top]

A contribution - and on the same theme I acknowledge - has gone missing perhaps because my concentration was of Callum Ferguson upstaging Mark Cosgrove

Check out the Liecs v Worcs Scorecard and you will see what I mean

Anyway, back to the subject at hand

This weekend v West Coast, who are on top of the Ladder will show why we are struggling post the retirements of Riewoldt, Montagna and Dempster

The problem we have is with our 100 Plus game players

Who of that group do Opposition Clubs need to focus on because they impact the result of a game - apart from Number 3?

Compare the demographics of West Coast's List, led by Hurn who is a decisive medium defender turning defence to attack and providing the opportunities he provides to Kennedy with his carry and disposal

We are in transition because of our lack of class among our experienced players who are no more than role and support players - Number 3 excluded

[DJ Higgins]

I really felt we went off track when we traded for Koby Stevens and Jack Steele. It didnt make sense. These 2 gave us nothing different, 2 more slowish mids. Both good players but they didnt improve our list. And now we know that Richo loves having 4 slow mids in the mix every week and we get thrashed with run and carry.

Disagree about Steele although he hasn't been good this year. He wasn't too expensive and has shown a lot. Wasn't he high on the list last year for presure points ? I could be wrong. Koby I didn't get, I will give you that. Shame about his career now over.

[stonecold]

Paddy in the seconds wouldn't help IMO, isn't he way too good for VFL standard. Isn't the best outcome for his fitness and development to play out the whole year without interruption, and hopefully with Bruce and Members along side him.

If that happens I recon we will see some cause for optimism towards the end of the season.

Bookmark this.

Is Paddy too good for VFL though? The times he has played there when he has been fit he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. From what I have seen of Battle he is a better mark, better kick and a much better athlete than Paddy is capable of being.

Battle is a better all round athlete - I rate him in much higher esteem - in fact, I think he will be a gun

Paddy had to kick a bag to get back in last year, Battle hasn't done that yet!!!!!

I have watched Josh since under 15's (closely), he may make it, but he won't be a gun!!!!!

Did I miss a game? When did Paddy ever kick a bag? Do you mean the 3 he kicked against GWS?
Is that a bag now? On a totally separate note...
I thought 5 + was a bag?
But Dermie said a player kicked a bag and he had 3 for the game! Is a bag 3+?

Re-read Rothy, I was talking about kicking a bag in the VFL to get into the senior team!!!!!

A bag started at 7 in my day!!!!!

5 is just a handful!!!!!

[SydneySainter]

I think rebuilds always depend on your senior players.

You can rebuild around them.

It's when you have rubbish senior players that rebuilding takes time.

Unfortunately, that's where we're at.

So we just have to wait. It's on track.

Rebuilds also depend on the quality of players you're bringing in via trades and the draft.

Trades we've had some success with Carlisle being the clear winner, plus Bruce, Steele (although surplice to our requirements) and Membrey as a delisted FA. But then there was the trading of first round picks for Hickey and Lee. Yes, I know there were several extra elements to those trades, but after it all came out in the wash, we overpaid. Of course, there was Freeman also. Still may debut this year, but two years at the Pies and three with us, we have to be realistic.

As for the draft, its been a fail.

Jury's out as to whether Billings will evolve into a genuine A level player. Has had his small patches of brilliance, but five seasons on, he's so far been very overpriced at pick 3. Long is a bit similar, but this is only his second season admittedly.

Dunstan and Acres we're late first rounders - Acres is still an uneven player, but still looks like he can improve and potentially turn into an A grader, whereas Dunstan (whilst getting more of the footy than last season) is still just B level inside mid.

As for the 2014 draft, that really has been the spanner in the engine. Even if you don't necessarily nab the best player with pick 1, they still need to be a very good player and Paddy, for everything he "could" have been, will likely retire in the next two seasons. Yes, no one could have predicted this, but his diabetes was well documented and it still smacks of a knee-jerk selection to get a key forward after the Boyd deal with Footscray. Then there was Hugh Goddard, a late first round selection who'll likely be delisted at the end of the year. These selections were both made in our wooden spoon draft!!!

Gresh, for all his inconsistency, has been the standout selection and the only one who looks like he could evolve into a genuine star.

[chico2001]

Probably summed it up sydney sainter. Some the crap that has gone on with the saints over the past 5 years is bordering on criminal. Posters have drilled down and highlighted the issues we have but this forum continues to get other posters living in a dreamworld where they reckon McCartin, Dunstan and co are good players and that others will get better over time. Its total bulls*** and i cant believe saints have 42500 members , talk about being sucked in.I am at the stage where I hope the AFL take action against the saints and boot them over to Tasmania and start again. Call them the Tasmanian saints. The saints are actually disrespected by legends and stars of the game, that is the lowest compliment you can get.

*Recruiting- no good, just got no idea
*Board- no good-Club is in debt
*Coach- no good- This will be his one and only AFL head coach job
*strategic plan- no good
*75% of players- no good- would not get a game with other clubs.

You call this being on track- .........what track?

[takeaway]

Probably summed it up sydney sainter. Some the crap that has gone on with the saints over the past 5 years is bordering on criminal. Posters have drilled down and highlighted the issues we have but this forum continues to get other posters living in a dreamworld where they reckon McCartin, Dunstan and co are good players and that others will get better over time. Its total bulls*** and i cant believe saints have 42500 members , talk about being sucked in.I am at the stage where I hope the AFL take action against the saints and boot them over to Tasmania and start again. Call them the Tasmanian saints. The saints are actually disrespected by legends and stars of the game, that is the lowest compliment you can get.

*Recruiting- no good, just got no idea
*Board- no good-Club is in debt
*Coach- no good- This will be his one and only AFL head coach job
*strategic plan- no good
*75% of players- no good- would not get a game with other clubs.

You call this being on track- .........what track?
/quote]

Your track. We can only be thankful that if a club was ever on your track they wouldn't exist.

[dragit]

I am at the stage where I hope the AFL take action against the saints and boot them over to Tasmania and start again. Call them the Tasmanian saints. The saints are actually disrespected by legends and stars of the game, that is the lowest compliment you can get.

troll season… at least you could pretend to support the side.

[takeaway]

I think rebuilds always depend on your senior players.

You can rebuild around them.

It's when you have rubbish senior players that rebuilding takes time.

Unfortunately, that's where we're at.

So we just have to wait. It's on track.

Rebuilds also depend on the quality of players you're bringing in via trades and the draft.

Trades we've had some success with Carlisle being the clear winner, plus Bruce, Steele (although surplice to our requirements) and Membrey as a delisted FA. But then there was the trading of first round picks for Hickey and Lee. Yes, I know there were several extra elements to those trades, but after it all came out in the wash, we overpaid. Of course, there was Freeman also. Still may debut this year, but two years at the Pies and three with us, we have to be realistic.

As for the draft, its been a fail.

Jury's out as to whether Billings will evolve into a genuine A level player. Has had his small patches of brilliance, but five seasons on, he's so far been very overpriced at pick 3. Long is a bit similar, but this is only his second season admittedly.

Dunstan and Acres we're late first rounders - Acres is still an uneven player, but still looks like he can improve and potentially turn into an A grader, whereas Dunstan (whilst getting more of the footy than last season) is still just B level inside mid.

As for the 2014 draft, that really has been the spanner in the engine. Even if you don't necessarily nab the best player with pick 1, they still need to be a very good player and Paddy, for everything he "could" have been, will likely retire in the next two seasons. Yes, no one could have predicted this, but his diabetes was well documented and it still smacks of a knee-jerk selection to get a key forward after the Boyd deal with Footscray. Then there was Hugh Goddard, a late first round selection who'll likely be delisted at the end of the year. These selections were both made in our wooden spoon draft!!!

Gresh, for all his inconsistency, has been the standout selection and the only one who looks like he could evolve into a genuine star.

You can't really judge the value of drafts after 2013 - not enough time for players to develop to their full potential. So its just a prediction. Hard to draft future stars every draft, for every club. If you can draft players that will be best 22 for a finals side, plus a couple of guns, you have done well over a five year draft period. I don't want to go through all the draftees, but imo Billings, Gresham, Acres, Dunstan, Clark, Coffield, Long will be definitely best 22, with at least 3 of them having the potential to be A grade. Phillips, Rice,White are looking very likely, bit early for some others. McCartin has the talent, and if he gets a decent go in an improved forward line/structure he could well be A grade. McKenzie could be anything, but not a best 22 yet, same as Sinclair. Probably others I have missed.

Add A graders Steven, Carlisle, Ross (nearly) another good draft pick and hopefully one or two FA, and we're ON THE WAY!

[rodgerfox]

Sam Fisher looked like absolute junk in his first few seasons.

Even Alex Rance was was fairly spuddish.


I'm not writing off the entire list just yet, I think it's way too early to be declaring anyone drafted in 2013 and after to be completely useless.

[Flagless]

Paddy is going to be a jet. We need Paddy, Bruce and Members to play out the year together and build a chemistry. Them not being able to play together is arguably the single most reason why our progress has stalled.

Tall forward lines will be back in vogue by seasons end and if West Coast win the flag then Richmond's small forward line will be confirmed for what it always was, a one hit wonder.

Arguably our 3 tall forwards being injured and not being able to play together is what has caused the most instability in the team setup and development.

There is one flaw in that argument, Paddy has had 4 seasons to get AFL fit and he hasn't come close. It doesn't matter how much talent you have, (and I'm still to be convinced he has plenty) if you aren't fit enough to get to contests you wont make it