Saintsational Fan Forum - A passionate community of St Kilda Football Club fans discussing news, history, players, trade rumours, results, AFL stats and more.
Yes, we've had handouts, but the reason we've had them is that we were totally screwed for two decades in the docklands stadium deal. That contract cost at least $30 million dollars (compared to the clubs who play at the MCG and Essendon's sweet deal at docklands that we have subsidized for them). The AFL failed us in that arrangement. Throw in the that fact that nearly all other Melbourne clubs in that time have made between $250 million and $400 million in poker machine revenue compared to our $80 million. Only North Melbourne have fared worse than us.
On top of all that, throw in the dodgy fixturing that has favoured clubs like Collingwood and Essendon at our expense, further pushing us out to the margins.
I think it's remarkable that our club has managed to keep it's head above water given the manufactured obstacles (mostly by the AFL commission) put in front of it.
So....when people keep criticizing our debt levels, remember that it's never been a level playing field. Certain Victorian clubs (MCG based and Geelong based) have had things manipulated in their favour for three decades. The rest of us have effectively subsidized their priveleges during that period
cwrcyn wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:49pm
We should be thankful for Gillon McLaughlin's leadership. That swine Demetriou would have continued to screw us over
For the struggling clubs, Wayne Jackson was the worst. He approved the Footscray/Fitzroy merger, the Hawthorn-Melbourne merger, and ultimately the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger. He oversaw the ground rationalisation of suburban venues to the MCG and Waverley.
After that, the AFL committed to a growth strategy rather than a rationalisation one.
Gil was an amazing CEO of the AFL. I hope the new bloke is 75% as good.
cwrcyn wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:49pm
We should be thankful for Gillon McLaughlin's leadership. That swine Demetriou would have continued to screw us over
For the struggling clubs, Wayne Jackson was the worst. He approved the Footscray/Fitzroy merger, the Hawthorn-Melbourne merger, and ultimately the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger. He oversaw the ground rationalisation of suburban venues to the MCG and Waverley.
After that, the AFL committed to a growth strategy rather than a rationalisation one.
Gil was an amazing CEO of the AFL. I hope the new bloke is 75% as good.
Spot on
Sums up the mindless and headless rationalism of the ‘90s
Isn’t it odd (perhaps not ironic after all) that periods of economic brutality correspond with glorious music and art, movies etc.)
Started late ‘70s l, flatlined I. the ‘80a and went into turbo overdrive mode in the early to mid 90s.
Merging and closure, so called ‘privatization’ , de regulation, and a very simple analysis that slaughtered the hearts that created and kept the things ticking - with their dodgy and sometimes corrupt rhythms it must be said - going.
What replaced it isn’t a free market, it’s a privileged market
And yes Collingwood does well. But they can easily justify that. They can easily say they are doing the lions share of the pulling.
Now Collingwood received zero subsidies according to that article if you should bother to read it. Of course , it is just one article - it could be BS but I would say Fix sports have a point one can’t bleach out by saying things like any moron, ‘don’t believe everything you read’
Thank goodness things changed for the better again but the new ‘normal’ is that pauper clubs like us have to be ‘the bitches’ for a while at least. U less we became a new phenomenon…which frankly is hard to o age if we are stuck in nowhere Moorabbin .
Do g worry I won’t start a Junvtion oval rant. Leave that aside but recognize we are a small club and will be the foreseeable. It comes with a price.
Vortex wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 4:34pm
this is about the only article you are like to find on the net about a book written by Michael Warner called "The Boys Club",
It could give you a different perspective on the Vatican and it's Popes and Bishops, aka The AFL and it's executives, at head office and in club land.
cwrcyn wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:49pm
We should be thankful for Gillon McLaughlin's leadership. That swine Demetriou would have continued to screw us over
For the struggling clubs, Wayne Jackson was the worst. He approved the Footscray/Fitzroy merger, the Hawthorn-Melbourne merger, and ultimately the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger. He oversaw the ground rationalisation of suburban venues to the MCG and Waverley.
After that, the AFL committed to a growth strategy rather than a rationalisation one.
Gil was an amazing CEO of the AFL. I hope the new bloke is 75% as good.
Spot on
Sums up the mindless and headless rationalism of the ‘90s
Isn’t it odd (perhaps not ironic after all) that periods of economic brutality correspond with glorious music and art, movies etc.)
Started late ‘70s l, flatlined I. the ‘80a and went into turbo overdrive mode in the early to mid 90s.
Merging and closure, so called ‘privatization’ , de regulation, and a very simple analysis that slaughtered the hearts that created and kept the things ticking - with their dodgy and sometimes corrupt rhythms it must be said - going.
What replaced it isn’t a free market, it’s a privileged market
And yes Collingwood does well. But they can easily justify that. They can easily say they are doing the lions share of the pulling.
Now Collingwood received zero subsidies according to that article if you should bother to read it. Of course , it is just one article - it could be BS but I would say Fix sports have a point one can’t bleach out by saying things like any moron, ‘don’t believe everything you read’
Thank goodness things changed for the better again but the new ‘normal’ is that pauper clubs like us have to be ‘the bitches’ for a while at least. U less we became a new phenomenon…which frankly is hard to o age if we are stuck in nowhere Moorabbin .
Do g worry I won’t start a Junvtion oval rant. Leave that aside but recognize we are a small club and will be the foreseeable. It comes with a price.
I think the main point is Shane, if we can get 30k to the football, we wont have to lick boots. Unfortunately, you have to get 69000 memebers to get 30000 to the football every week. and 60 Grand at the MCG against West Coast.
Us people buying 8 interstate memberships aren't big noting ourselves,
I pay for more than 1 full membership wherever I want to sit and get to 5 games if I'm lucky.
I run functions here we I can for mates and we raise funds for a sponsorship.
It's fun and the AFL supporters here get it and but a ticket.
I'm in Hervey Bay.
I wish I wish I was there might be time to come home.
We are in Moorabbin, att the edge of the sandbelt, the wastelands, near Dingley.
How long since you been in Melbourne Shane. You sound like a foreigner, talking about Melbourne.
Last edited by CQ SAINT on Wed 20 Dec 2023 1:05am, edited 2 times in total.
cwrcyn wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:45pm
Yes, we've had handouts, but the reason we've had them is that we were totally screwed for two decades in the docklands stadium deal. That contract cost at least $30 million dollars (compared to the clubs who play at the MCG and Essendon's sweet deal at docklands that we have subsidized for them). The AFL failed us in that arrangement. Throw in the that fact that nearly all other Melbourne clubs in that time have made between $250 million and $400 million in poker machine revenue compared to our $80 million. Only North Melbourne have fared worse than us.
On top of all that, throw in the dodgy fixturing that has favoured clubs like Collingwood and Essendon at our expense, further pushing us out to the margins.
I think it's remarkable that our club has managed to keep it's head above water given the manufactured obstacles (mostly by the AFL commission) put in front of it.
So....when people keep criticizing our debt levels, remember that it's never been a level playing field. Certain Victorian clubs (MCG based and Geelong based) have had things manipulated in their favour for three decades. The rest of us have effectively subsidized their priveleges during that period
I 100% agree with this and this is why we should not give up on NZ. Every other Vic club has either a Blockbuster game(s) or sell games to other states that makes them money. We have nothing and we also have to deal with the AFL FIXture. We get smashed with Sunday twilight games and the most shitty interstate games and the most 5 day turnarounds. The AFL will always treat us like s***. The only way to mitigate this treachery is to create something special in NZ. Play 1 pre-season game there, 1 home game there on ANZAC day and a second home game there later in the season. This would make us a profitable organisation whether we are a top 8 team or a bottom 4 team. If we don't do this we will always be in peril and reliant on the devil (the AFL).
cwrcyn wrote: ↑Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:45pm
Yes, we've had handouts, but the reason we've had them is that we were totally screwed for two decades in the docklands stadium deal. That contract cost at least $30 million dollars (compared to the clubs who play at the MCG and Essendon's sweet deal at docklands that we have subsidized for them). The AFL failed us in that arrangement. Throw in the that fact that nearly all other Melbourne clubs in that time have made between $250 million and $400 million in poker machine revenue compared to our $80 million. Only North Melbourne have fared worse than us.
On top of all that, throw in the dodgy fixturing that has favoured clubs like Collingwood and Essendon at our expense, further pushing us out to the margins.
I think it's remarkable that our club has managed to keep it's head above water given the manufactured obstacles (mostly by the AFL commission) put in front of it.
So....when people keep criticizing our debt levels, remember that it's never been a level playing field. Certain Victorian clubs (MCG based and Geelong based) have had things manipulated in their favour for three decades. The rest of us have effectively subsidized their priveleges during that period
I 100% agree with this and this is why we should not give up on NZ. Every other Vic club has either a Blockbuster game(s) or sell games to other states that makes them money. We have nothing and we also have to deal with the AFL FIXture. We get smashed with Sunday twilight games and the most shitty interstate games and the most 5 day turnarounds. The AFL will always treat us like s***. The only way to mitigate this treachery is to create something special in NZ. Play 1 pre-season game there, 1 home game there on ANZAC day and a second home game there later in the season. This would make us a profitable organisation whether we are a top 8 team or a bottom 4 team. If we don't do this we will always be in peril and reliant on the devil (the AFL).
You need to get over your fixation on NZ and the kiwis.. They are just not interested in AFL
CQ SAINT wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 1:01am
I think the main point is Shane, if we can get 30k to the football, we wont have to lick boots. Unfortunately, you have to get 69000 memebers to get 30000 to the football every week. and 60 Grand at the MCG against West Coast.
Us people buying 8 interstate memberships aren't big noting ourselves,
I pay for more than 1 full membership wherever I want to sit and get to 5 games if I'm lucky.
I run functions here we I can for mates and we raise funds for a sponsorship.
It's fun and the AFL supporters here get it and but a ticket.
I'm in Hervey Bay.
I wish I wish I was there might be time to come home.
We are in Moorabbin, att the edge of the sandbelt, the wastelands, near Dingley.
How long since you been in Melbourne Shane. You sound like a foreigner, talking about Melbourne.
Clearly membership numbers don’t equate to a strong financial position on their own.
It’s important to know the arms race of the past decade to report high membership numbers has more to do with access to government grants than it does actual strong revenue, see the book written on this subject by Jeff Kennett. Having some inside knowledge of the process with the Cairns game was an eye opener.
The AFL almost falls over financially in its current form if you take away its access to government funding.
Next year will probably see us selling home games again because clearly we are struggling to create enough revenue to pay off our large debt let alone have a surplus to compete in the soft and secret cap that the rich clubs enjoy.
CQ SAINT wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 1:01am
I think the main point is Shane, if we can get 30k to the football, we wont have to lick boots. Unfortunately, you have to get 69000 memebers to get 30000 to the football every week. and 60 Grand at the MCG against West Coast.
Us people buying 8 interstate memberships aren't big noting ourselves,
I pay for more than 1 full membership wherever I want to sit and get to 5 games if I'm lucky.
I run functions here we I can for mates and we raise funds for a sponsorship.
It's fun and the AFL supporters here get it and but a ticket.
I'm in Hervey Bay.
I wish I wish I was there might be time to come home.
We are in Moorabbin, att the edge of the sandbelt, the wastelands, near Dingley.
How long since you been in Melbourne Shane. You sound like a foreigner, talking about Melbourne.
Clearly membership numbers don’t equate to a strong financial position on their own.
It’s important to know the arms race of the past decade to report high membership numbers has more to do with access to government grants than it does actual strong revenue, see the book written on this subject by Jeff Kennett. Having some inside knowledge of the process with the Cairns game was an eye opener.
The AFL almost falls over financially in its current form if you take away its access to government funding.
Next year will probably see us selling home games again because clearly we are struggling to create enough revenue to pay off our large debt let alone have a surplus to compete in the soft and secret cap that the rich clubs enjoy.
And what else would 100,000 warrior folk getup too every other Saturday, when they let the chains off for the weekend.
CQ SAINT wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 1:01am
I think the main point is Shane, if we can get 30k to the football, we wont have to lick boots. Unfortunately, you have to get 69000 memebers to get 30000 to the football every week. and 60 Grand at the MCG against West Coast.
Us people buying 8 interstate memberships aren't big noting ourselves,
I pay for more than 1 full membership wherever I want to sit and get to 5 games if I'm lucky.
I run functions here we I can for mates and we raise funds for a sponsorship.
It's fun and the AFL supporters here get it and but a ticket.
I'm in Hervey Bay.
I wish I wish I was there might be time to come home.
We are in Moorabbin, att the edge of the sandbelt, the wastelands, near Dingley.
How long since you been in Melbourne Shane. You sound like a foreigner, talking about Melbourne.
Clearly membership numbers don’t equate to a strong financial position on their own.
It’s important to know the arms race of the past decade to report high membership numbers has more to do with access to government grants than it does actual strong revenue, see the book written on this subject by Jeff Kennett. Having some inside knowledge of the process with the Cairns game was an eye opener.
The AFL almost falls over financially in its current form if you take away its access to government funding.
Next year will probably see us selling home games again because clearly we are struggling to create enough revenue to pay off our large debt let alone have a surplus to compete in the soft and secret cap that the rich clubs enjoy.
And what else would 100,000 warrior folk getup too every other Saturday, when they let the chains off for the weekend.
The AFL has been fighting for us since day 1.
Just be loyal.
I would have thought my loyalty has no bounds Willy?
But on the topic, don't kid yourself that the AFL isn't all about it's commercial interests and its "loyal" partners.
Us "loyal" punters just make life so easy to stay distracted when the chains come off. You might think you are the real Willy Wonka, but some of us know who the real Willy Wonka is.
As the years have gone by I have re discovered the enjoyment I get from my local clubs in Victoria and Queensland, a day out at the local footy is waaay more pleasurable than a day out at an AFL venue, unless of coarse it's an AF prelim or GF, those two games are still my favorites.
Having said that I enjoy the AFL TV product immensely which is the AFLs main game, yes I know all Oompa Loompas think they are important because they buy memberships religiously every year, but whether we like it or not you only have to look to the franchise clubs and the pending Tasmanian Franchise to know it's mostly about them being good TV products, that's all the Tasmanian side will be...a TV product. So in that regard loyalty, or as the marketing professionals call it, "brand loyalty", loyalty is great for Willy Wonka and his factory.
Some excellent points made on this thread in the last batch at least…
Good stuff
Think positively
Create ideas
Ask questions
Don’t be put off by the knockers who tell, ‘you’ what ‘you’ need to do.
If St Kilda remains at Moorabbin clinging to its pokies and a fan base that consists of kids following the legacy of parents and grandparents, nothing wrong with that of course, be proud, it won’t be enough. (Edit add: even though as has been pointed out, things have recovered from the brutal Jackson 90s..the imperative to rationalize, It will come back again, or if it doesn’t, we will have to accept the status of purely a token club, which is ridiculous when you think about it and unsustainable) AFL footy itself will eat itself to survive. While the Melbourne continues to explode in population (what is it now 6 million?) within which millions have never, nor will ever witness a football in the guise of AFL being kicked, let alone have even heard of team names like St Kilda, I would say that AFL footy itself is under threat and that vulnerable clubs are …eh….vulnerable. (This makes Gold Coast’s marketeers spouting population growth in SE Queensland a joke - for the ‘new people’ might not give a damn)
Anyway some great points made and thank you to everyone .
So let’s summarize.
We know that.
1) St Kilda is a club that is paid like a kid gets his rent and uni fees paid by his parents but is expected to work part-time to pay for his daily expenses, food, beer, clothes, concerts etc. (see * below)
2) revenue for the AFL comes from TV rights, gambling royalties, sponsorships - oh what a feel in’
3) the kid is still in debt, but uses pokies to help cover some of it..and why not?
4) Because gambling on footy is officially sanctioned and promoted by the AFL (Sports Bet) and advertised heavily on the very TV and media platforms that flog the game. It’s like both parents smoke, so why tell the kid he can’t smoke?. Some of those gambling royalties trickle down into St Kilda’s support package, but you can ‘bet’ they know the stats down to the last dollar, as to which games attract the most gambling.
5) attendances and gate receipts are important for PR and lobbying but not really in the big numbers picture. Less than 20% now.
6) as pointed out, membership numbers are very dubious, for what is a membership? Three games and a Chinese scarf? (Not knocking Chinese scarves, they are lovely)
We are thinking small picture here.
Arguing about 30 or 50 pokies, moving to Seaford , and back again, hustling ..
As you know, (and it is no panacea) in my personal opinion St Kilda needs a base in St KIlda. The Juction Oval is a white elephant for cricket Victoria,,just check their fixturing and losses..but we will leave that for another day here.
One person suggested New Zealand. The only problem I have is that we need every drip of competitive advantage we can eek out of the fixture possible. Playing Cairns and New Zealand and China don’t help that I don’t think. Not just the game itself, but the following g month too.
So what I am saying as others have suggested, attendance and memberships have strong rhetorical power at the negotiating table, as clubs fight for pieces of the pie so to speak. But the pie itself is based on TV, sponsorship and gambling. If St Kilda can show it is helping the pie in its own way, we have more. We need a profile, that goes beyond its traditional base. Into the cosmopolitan side of the new Australia. The hard working pragmatic family living and working in Cranbourne won’t care about footy, but they might have heard of St Kilda .
The Fireman wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 1:36pm
All clubs are based on membership without membership there would be no clubs
The amount of members indicates relevancy and potential revenue at the gate along with merchandising making it a more appealing asset for the AFL
So basically if you’re not a member, you’re not fair dinkum
The latter appears obvious in this case
which begs the question...is Shane Augustus Gloop ?
nup! our membership means almost didley squat at the turnstiles, the amount of games we play at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon in front of small crowds should be a dead give away.
TV, gambling and booze are what make clubs an appealing asset, the game is mostly a TV product these days, the big clubs and their blockbusters attract big crowds and big ambiance which is marvellous for spicing up the TV product.
Revenue from gambling alone is what allows us to maintain a debt in excess of $10 million over a sustained period, the AFL see the handouts they give us as an operational cost but the games we play on TV can still be gambled on which they see as a ROI from gambling revenue.
the more clubs in the comp, the more gambling, the more booze, the more advertisements.
The Fireman wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 8:19pm
Could someone do a quick equation how much Club makes from membership.?
it's a wonder that clubs even bother to urge membership renewal considering how worthless they are.
the membership money comes in handy, but it's still well short of the amount it cost to run the club each year, and then there is the money we don't have to invest in the football department that the rich clubs have which impacts our ability to compete with the top 4 clubs on a sustainable basis.
As an interesting exercise check out our financial statements and then compare them to the rich clubs, then compare their board numbers, staffing levels, number of coaches..all significantly greater than ours..
If we are going to become relevant and compete at their level over a sustained period we need to find a way to generate more revenue.
membership is important, but the revenue to compete needs to come from more than just membership.
The Fireman wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 8:19pm
Could someone do a quick equation how much Club makes from membership.?
it's a wonder that clubs even bother to urge membership renewal considering how worthless they are.
the membership money comes in handy, but it's still well short of the amount it cost to run the club each year, and then there is the money we don't have to invest in the football department that the rich clubs have which impacts our ability to compete with the top 4 clubs on a sustainable basis.
As an interesting exercise check out our financial statements and then compare them to the rich clubs, then compare their board numbers, staffing levels, number of coaches..all significantly greater than ours..
If we are going to become relevant and compete at their level over a sustained period we need to find a way to generate more revenue.
membership is important, but the revenue to compete needs to come from more than just membership.
I think we should consider folding.
We will never recover from Covid let alone compete in an arms race.
I'm moving to Cairns.
The Fireman wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 8:19pm
Could someone do a quick equation how much Club makes from membership.?
it's a wonder that clubs even bother to urge membership renewal considering how worthless they are.
the membership money comes in handy, but it's still well short of the amount it cost to run the club each year, and then there is the money we don't have to invest in the football department that the rich clubs have which impacts our ability to compete with the top 4 clubs on a sustainable basis.
As an interesting exercise check out our financial statements and then compare them to the rich clubs, then compare their board numbers, staffing levels, number of coaches..all significantly greater than ours..
If we are going to become relevant and compete at their level over a sustained period we need to find a way to generate more revenue.
membership is important, but the revenue to compete needs to come from more than just membership.
I think we should consider folding.
We will never recover from Covid let alone compete in an arms race.
I'm moving to Cairns.
They already have truck stops in Cairns. I reckon you should consider Mapoon.
The Fireman wrote: ↑Wed 20 Dec 2023 8:19pm
Could someone do a quick equation how much Club makes from membership.?
it's a wonder that clubs even bother to urge membership renewal considering how worthless they are.
the membership money comes in handy, but it's still well short of the amount it cost to run the club each year, and then there is the money we don't have to invest in the football department that the rich clubs have which impacts our ability to compete with the top 4 clubs on a sustainable basis.
As an interesting exercise check out our financial statements and then compare them to the rich clubs, then compare their board numbers, staffing levels, number of coaches..all significantly greater than ours..
If we are going to become relevant and compete at their level over a sustained period we need to find a way to generate more revenue.
membership is important, but the revenue to compete needs to come from more than just membership.
I think we should consider folding.
We will never recover from Covid let alone compete in an arms race.
I'm moving to Cairns.
They already have truck stops in Cairns. I reckon you should consider Mapoon.
No worries mate. I came in for some fuel a mars bar and coke. U can keep the change.
