Max vs Ben

[B.M]

Watched 2 GC games now

Observations about Ben compared to Max

Ben doesn’t get as much of the ball
Ben is a better kick at goal / he’s a dead eye
Ben is a lead up forward
Ben is very quick in a straight line - gets separation
Ben is a role player
Ben has a bigger upper body
Ben is is consistently OK without dominating

Ben - player comparison- Ben Brown

Max is a better contested player (mark and ground level)
Max very good at ground level for a 202
Max does not lead enough - and jogs around
Max is a confidence player can be hot and cold
Can take big contested marks and drop ones he should take
Max is agile for a 202
Max is an unreliable kick at goal
When he is on, Max can tear a game apart
When he is not on, he drops his head
Max is a powerful field kick

Player comparison- Joe Daniher


Max’s best is better than Ben but he lacks consistency

He plays the game above his shoulders

[Yorkeys]

Joe Daniher?
That's a bit below the belt faint praise, yes?
Max is Max.
Scares the hell out of all defenders, including Melbourne's twin pillars and that Knee to the head/kidneys Stewart.

[Vortex]

When he is on, Max can tear a game apart

This is so not what I think of when I think of Max to the point it is frustrating me becaue that's what he was reqruited for, to be our forward marquee weapon you can build a list around.

Can't think of a game that was memorable where Max won the game off his own boot. He just played one of the weakest defences in the comp and could have filled his boots, those set shots were something else.

He now can't hide behind the excuse he's only young, needs to start kicking 60+ or he will start to be talked about as a draft fail at DP4.

[Otiman]

You cant build a dominant team around an inconsistent player.

Max and Higgins both too inconsistent in the current side need to step up.

[Brunswicksainter]

Max vs. Ben career to date (Footywire):
74 Games 77
6.6 Kicks 5.3
3.0 Handballs 2.2
9.6 Disposals 7.5
4.5 Marks 3.4
2.0 Goals 1.8
1.5 Behinds 1.0
0.9 Tackles 0.6
0.5 Hitouts 0.1
1.6 Inside 50s 1.3
0.5 Goal Assists 0.3
1.0 Frees For 0.9
0.8 Frees Against 0.6
5.7 Contested Possessions 4.1
4.0 Uncontested Possessions 3.6
6.1 Eff, Disposals 4.8
63.5% Disp. Eff. % 64%
2.0 Clangers 1.5
2.1 Cont. Marks 1.0
2.6 Marks I50 2.1
0.1 Clearances 0.1
0 Rebound 50s 0
1.0 One Percenters 1.2
0 Bounces 0
85.8 TOG % 86.8
0 Cent. Clear. 0
0.1 Stop. Clear. 0.1
5.5 Score Involve. 4.2
188.4 Metres Gained 148.2
2.3 Turnovers 2.0
0.5 Intercepts 0.4
0.5 Tackles I50 0.3

[Brunswicksainter]

Thing with max is he is so frustrating to watch and has you second guessing whether he will make it as a key forward long term and yet his career to date stats are not that far off the likes of Curnow and Cameron at the same age.

[Sainter_Dad]

Max is Max.
Scares the hell out of all defenders, including Melbourne's twin pillars and that Knee to the head/kidneys Stewart.

Max takes a best defender and scores a few - St Kilda need to learn to use other avenues to goal if Max is being blanketed as it often takes 2 to do the job.

WE DON'T LOOK FOR THE SPARE.

[samoht]

Max has the athleticism to play CHF where he might be better suited?
If he has more space to move around in, he'd be harder to cover? In theory.
He's doing okay at FF ... but he might do better than okay elsewhere?

Even CHB ... Roberton as a pick 49 was averaging 25 possessions and was arguably our best player (under Richo, may I add)... what could Max do as a CHB?

Roberton was consistently great ... not just okay. Pick 49.

[The Fireman]

max is 23... he may put a bit of weight on and improve ?

[meher baba]

I don't think the problem is so much Max as it is the whole setup up forward.

The forward line has been far from consistent in terms of personnel over the past season and a bit. As a consequence, it has looked quite disorganised for much of the time, especially since Max has come back. Oddly, it probably looked at its most organised when it comprised Caminiti, Cordy, Higgins and Butler with cameos by Owens and Phillipou. Membrey has largely fitted in quite well, but King seems to struggle with his positioning, and his colleagues pick up on that and don't always go to the right place themselves.

My radical suggestion to improve things would be to swap Boris and Banger over for a while. Boris has shown that he's a wiz at getting a group of players to work together as a team, even though the defensive lineup has been frequently unsettled by injuries, suspensions, etc. (Of course, he has had the enormous benefit of having Wilkie back there playing the role of general.)

It's got to be worth a try: I would assume that Boris has ambitions to become a head coach in the near future, so he'd probably be keen to broaden his coaching experience.

[spert]

max is 23... he may put a bit of weight on and improve ?

I reckon at this stage in his career, what you see now is about it. Athletic tall forward, who kicks a few goals here and there. We need another strong forward KPP at CHF

[samoht]

We've had a chance to see how our forward line functions with or without Max in it as FF.
Plus or minus Max at FF, we're kicking 9 goals.

It could mean that Max could be better utilised elsewhere (other than at FF)?
Try something different ... a bit of lateral thinking?

Start with CHF, for example?

[Otiman]

IMO Max is the CHF and Caminiti at FF.

[samoht]

It's not about how many goals Max is kicking off his own boot, at the end of the day, it's about improving our team, overall.
Where can we get the most bang for our team from our buck (pardon the pun ... at 23 he's still a buck), the most benefit for our team, anyway.
CHF, CHB ... the surface of the moon?

[magnifisaint]

Watched 2 GC games now

Observations about Ben compared to Max

Ben doesn’t get as much of the ball
Ben is a better kick at goal / he’s a dead eye
Ben is a lead up forward
Ben is very quick in a straight line - gets separation
Ben is a role player
Ben has a bigger upper body
Ben is is consistently OK without dominating

Ben - player comparison- Ben Brown

Max is a better contested player (mark and ground level)
Max very good at ground level for a 202
Max does not lead enough - and jogs around
Max is a confidence player can be hot and cold
Can take big contested marks and drop ones he should take
Max is agile for a 202
Max is an unreliable kick at goal
When he is on, Max can tear a game apart
When he is not on, he drops his head
Max is a powerful field kick

Player comparison- Joe Daniher


Max’s best is better than Ben but he lacks consistency

He plays the game above his shoulders

No way he compares to Joe Daniher.

No comparison!

[SinCitySainter]

The reason Max does not lead out to receive a kick is that our game plan is to kick to a pack and either grab a mark or create a stoppage.
If he played at a club where he was allowed to use his ground speed, marking power and agility he would be a 60 to 70 goal a year forward.
However, under Ross he is expected to crash packs so that the ball comes to ground and we can tie the ball up in the forward line.

[skeptic]

The reason Max does not lead out to receive a kick is that our game plan is to kick to a pack and either grab a mark or create a stoppage.
If he played at a club where he was allowed to use his ground speed, marking power and agility he would be a 60 to 70 goal a year forward.
However, under Ross he is expected to crash packs so that the ball comes to ground and we can tie the ball up in the forward line.

I suspect this is correct but it feels like a loser strategy to me

I mean if that’s the case… doesn’t it make more sense to trade Max out for 2 first rounders and the salary cap space, and bring Cordy up forward to do that job?

[SinCitySainter]

I suspect this is correct but it feels like a loser strategy to me

I mean if that’s the case… doesn’t it make more sense to trade Max out for 2 first rounders and the salary cap space, and bring Cordy up forward to do that job?

I agree to a point however the gameplan will still work better with King because he can take a contested mark and needs to have a really good defender against him to stop him being dominant. If you put Cordy up there instead you would not need to use your best defender to negate him because he is not a sufficiently strong contested mark to cause you any real problems up forward.
Make no mistake Max is a an A-grade forward but his effectiveness is reduced because our gameplan does not play to his strengths.

[D.B.Cooper]

Watched 2 GC games now

Observations about Ben compared to Max

Ben doesn’t get as much of the ball
Ben is a better kick at goal / he’s a dead eye
Ben is a lead up forward
Ben is very quick in a straight line - gets separation
Ben is a role player
Ben has a bigger upper body
Ben is is consistently OK without dominating

Ben - player comparison- Ben Brown

Max is a better contested player (mark and ground level)
Max very good at ground level for a 202
Max does not lead enough - and jogs around
Max is a confidence player can be hot and cold
Can take big contested marks and drop ones he should take
Max is agile for a 202
Max is an unreliable kick at goal
When he is on, Max can tear a game apart
When he is not on, he drops his head
Max is a powerful field kick

Player comparison- Joe Daniher


Max’s best is better than Ben but he lacks consistency

He plays the game above his shoulders

I live part time on GC.
I go to at least 6 GC Suns home games per season.

Ben may be bigger bodied, but he rarely wins one on one marking contests, and is often beaten.

Max chases and competes much more than Ben when the ball is in dispute or opponents possession.

Ben isn’t nearly as agile or quick laterally as Max.

Ben does not cover anywhere near the meters per game as Max.

I think Ben is straight line quicker than Max and considerably better at timing and executing a lead.

Ben is a better set shot but doesn’t have Max’s distance.

Both have poor body language when things don’t go their way.

IMO Max is a considerably superior player to Ben.

For the record, looking at the two together I reckon Max is an inch or two taller than Ben, he is just hunch backed in his posture.

Both in the one forward line would be complementary of each other due to contrasting styles.

[skeptic]

If you put Cordy up there instead you would not need to use your best defender to negate him because he is not a sufficiently strong contested mark to cause you any real problems up forward.

Agreed on all fronts. Don’t get me wrong - my suggestion wasn’t meant to be a desirable alternative. Like you’ve suggested… I wish we tailored a game plan to his strengths

[Moods]

If you look back in the last 20 years, twice we’ve had eras of domination in the fwd 50. 04/05, Riewoldt and Gehrig.
09 Roo and Kosi ( especially first half of 09)

When there is two bona fide tall fwds it’s so much harder to cover. So, I’m not sure the problem is Max, its Members, Owens, Sharman or Hayes. We’re soooo predictable going fwd. And Nankervis picked us off at will. We need Max for the dump kick to contest that ball, but we need to lower eyes and members needs to get involved more.

Pretty happy with Max’s 3 games this year. Kicked 6 and seems to be involved in a lot of goals

[saynta]

The reason Max does not lead out to receive a kick is that our game plan is to kick to a pack and either grab a mark or create a stoppage.
If he played at a club where he was allowed to use his ground speed, marking power and agility he would be a 60 to 70 goal a year forward.
However, under Ross he is expected to crash packs so that the ball comes to ground and we can tie the ball up in the forward line.

I suspect this is correct but it feels like a loser strategy to me

I mean if that’s the case… doesn’t it make more sense to trade Max out for 2 first rounders and the salary cap space, and bring Cordy up forward to do that job?

No.

[B.M]

Are you serious about Max and Cordy?

Cordy is a D Grade tall

Max is A/B Grade and will be Elite within 2 seasons

There is no such position as CHF in modern AFL footy hasn’t been for a decade. There is just 2 key forwards that are one to one and a half kicks from the footy at any stage plus a hybrid and a High half forward and 2 x Small Forwards

[B.M]

Yes

That’s my point

For identical twins they play very differently

The kicking is the funny one - Ben is very low possession but high efficiency and is very accurate set shot

Max is inefficient due to his erratic kicking at goal

[skeptic]

The reason Max does not lead out to receive a kick is that our game plan is to kick to a pack and either grab a mark or create a stoppage.
If he played at a club where he was allowed to use his ground speed, marking power and agility he would be a 60 to 70 goal a year forward.
However, under Ross he is expected to crash packs so that the ball comes to ground and we can tie the ball up in the forward line.

I suspect this is correct but it feels like a loser strategy to me

I mean if that’s the case… doesn’t it make more sense to trade Max out for 2 first rounders and the salary cap space, and bring Cordy up forward to do that job?

No.

Rhetorical question

The answer is of course not