GT's latest comments.

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Mr Magic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12701
Joined: Fri 04 May 2007 9:38am
Has thanked: 717 times
Been thanked: 401 times

GT's latest comments.

Post: # 433776Post Mr Magic »

I have been waiting all day for someone to start a thread on this and am amazed that no-one has.

Maybe we are all finally 'over' the GT/RB topic? :)

DId anybody hear GT on SEN this morning trying to explain his comments of yesterday regarding 'contract negotioations' that were 'outside the salary cap'?

Basically claimed he was approached a number of times by 'player managers' to cook up schemes for part of player's salary to be paid in a manner that would be outside the 'salary cap'. Claimed that no administration people were involved in these discussions and refused to name Saints, although it was stated by the commentators after he got off the line that GT only negotiated contracts at the Saints.

GT specifically mentioned 'property purchases and sales' as a method.

This may well bring 'heat' onto the Saints if the AFL believe that there was something 'dodgy' going on re our contracts.
I seem to recall that we have been investigated a couple of times by the AFL over the last couple of years and have found to be o.k., so hopefully nothing too bad will lcome of it.

Another casse of GT forgetting to think before he opens his mouth on radio or something more sinister?

BTW, for those bemoaning the performance of our Board over the last few years, I would humbly suggest that GT has let slip something that at least one of our Directors has been heavily involoved with that has been a major reason why we have been able, by and large, to maintain our list.


User avatar
st_Trav_ofWA
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8886
Joined: Wed 13 Sep 2006 7:10pm
Location: Perth
Contact:

Post: # 433784Post st_Trav_ofWA »

oh come on surely even the GT lovers would have to agree talking bout undertable payments on the radio is not on !!
GT reminds me of homer on that simpsons epp where he becomes a marrage teacher and spends the whole time telling private things to his students to disguise the fact he knows nothing about the subject !!

gt is like aka makes a comment then thinks about it !!!

having said that if we get investigated maybe the WCE could as well for Benny boys 1.2mil penthouse apartment he got for the bargin price of 60k !!!


"The team that wins in the most positions and makes the least amount of mistakes, usually wins the game." -- Allan Jeans

http://westernsaints.wordpress.com/
JeffDunne

Post: # 433787Post JeffDunne »

I know I'll be called a GT lover (again), but what's the problem with him making these comments?

Can't imagine GT is stupid enough to implicate himself - i.e. we don't have anything to worry about.

If other clubs are cheating then I hope they are exposed. His comments can only help put heat on the AFL to look at it. Surely that's a good thing if other clubs are cheating?


User avatar
st_Trav_ofWA
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8886
Joined: Wed 13 Sep 2006 7:10pm
Location: Perth
Contact:

Post: # 433790Post st_Trav_ofWA »

JeffDunne wrote:I know I'll be called a GT lover (again), but what's the problem with him making these comments?

Can't imagine GT is stupid enough to implicate himself - i.e. we don't have anything to worry about.

If other clubs are cheating then I hope they are exposed. His comments can only help put heat on the AFL to look at it. Surely that's a good thing if other clubs are cheating?
do you really think that bringing the AFL eyes onto the club is a good thing ??
at the moment we fly under the radar why bring heat to the club you suposedly love !!
GT please just go away !!!!! you had your turn its over move on if you cant talk bout anything but the saints your carreer is gunna be very short in the media as we have moved on !!!


"The team that wins in the most positions and makes the least amount of mistakes, usually wins the game." -- Allan Jeans

http://westernsaints.wordpress.com/
JeffDunne

Post: # 433797Post JeffDunne »

How on earth is he bringing heat on St Kilda?

If he made the comments knowing we are cheating - and he was part of it - then he's more stupid than even "Andrew from Hawthorn" gives him credit for.


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7073
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 461 times

Post: # 433798Post meher baba »

All I can say is "tell us something we didn't know".


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
Saints-06-Premiers
Club Player
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue 27 Sep 2005 10:08pm

Post: # 433801Post Saints-06-Premiers »

From what I see in the first post, he said he was appraoched to do it. Now did he do it or not?

Clubs have been doing this stuff for years. Every year or two the AFL investigates the houses/properties of players, but nothing ever happens.

It's nothing new.


Too lazy to update my username
User avatar
St Fidelius
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10492
Joined: Sun 01 Aug 2004 10:30am

Post: # 433803Post St Fidelius »

Here's an idea...

Why don't the admin staff start up a new Forum and call it Thomas???

That way we get rid of half of the crapola from the main forum...

and maybe get some peace from one particular who seems to have an obsession with him :idea:

To be honest, I am surprised this poster has jumped in as yet :roll:


Don't wait for the light at the end of the tunnel to appear, run down there and light the bloody thing yourself!
User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433804Post ausfatcat »

guys this sort of contracting is done nearly by every club and is totally above board. There was a age article recently on this. Basicly a player buys a house or shares in a property group, which then generate additional money for that player at a guarenteed amount. It's like the clubs buying players houses then selling them for less than what they paid for them. It is common and legal.


User avatar
yipper
SS Life Member
Posts: 3967
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 8:18am
Location: Gippsland
Been thanked: 10 times

Post: # 433805Post yipper »

JeffDunne wrote:How on earth is he bringing heat on St Kilda?

If he made the comments knowing we are cheating - and he was part of it - then he's more stupid than even "Andrew from Hawthorn" gives him credit for.

Gee... I hope you're right!! Seems to me that he need not have mentioned this at all - ever. He WAS only ever involved in contract negotiations with St.Kilda players don't forget.


I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
Behind Play
Club Player
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue 19 Jun 2007 7:18pm

Post: # 433807Post Behind Play »

Don't really understand why the subject needed to be mentioned. Does Gt believe he has to be a human headline and has to be contraversal every week.


User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433808Post ausfatcat »

It's not cheating and every club does it the AFL knows this and they also know they can't police it so they allow it........


JeffDunne

Post: # 433809Post JeffDunne »

Getting around the salary cap is not cheating? :?

Can I ask, what then was Carlton penalised for? Poor accounting? :lol:


User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433811Post ausfatcat »

it's within the rules and every club does this, carlton gave money directly to players. This is different in that there is no guareentee and is actually an investment facilitated by the club, not straight out giving money.
Last edited by ausfatcat on Mon 13 Aug 2007 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.


Behind Play
Club Player
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue 19 Jun 2007 7:18pm

Post: # 433813Post Behind Play »

ausfatcat wrote:it's within the rules and every club does this
According to GT, the Saints are not doing it.


User avatar
yipper
SS Life Member
Posts: 3967
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 8:18am
Location: Gippsland
Been thanked: 10 times

Post: # 433814Post yipper »

ausfatcat wrote:it's within the rules and every club does this
err - no it's not!!


I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433816Post ausfatcat »

the age article from last week (unfortunately gone off the website now) basicly said the reason for negotiations draging out now days is for this reason.


JeffDunne

Post: # 433817Post JeffDunne »

What's in the rules?

Clubs making financial arrangements with players outside the salary cap?

It's not unless it can be justified (i.e. marketing,etc).

The salary cap is a key plank in equalisation. We wouldn't have the list we have without it.

Feel free to show me the article, but the rules around payments to players are pretty clear. You can't stop players getting good financial advice - and Ricky Nixon made some interesting comments in relation to Judd recently - but if there's as agreement an part of a salary package then it's clearly in breach of the rules.


User avatar
Mr Magic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12701
Joined: Fri 04 May 2007 9:38am
Has thanked: 717 times
Been thanked: 401 times

Post: # 433818Post Mr Magic »

JeffDunne wrote:What's in the rules?

Clubs making financial arrangements with players outside the salary cap?

It's not unless it can be justified (i.e. marketing,etc).

The salary cap is a key plank in equalisation. We wouldn't have the list we have without it.

Feel free to show me the article, but the rules around payments to players are pretty clear. You can't stop players getting good financial advice - and Ricky Nixon made some interesting comments in relation to Judd recently - but if there's as agreement an part of a salary package then it's clearly in breach of the rules.
I know you'll find this remarkable JD, but your post is spot on!

What GT was talking about was ways 'around the salary cap'. If it was all above board then there would be no story.


User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433819Post ausfatcat »

found the article it was the heraldsun not the age.

Taking lid off salary cap
10 August 2007 AFL
Gerard Healy

IS THE salary cap in danger of becoming a mirage?



There is a view, increasingly supported by significant football personnel, that the cap is in danger of becoming merely a base payment structure for some clubs.

The true position, it is believed, is that major payment disparity is found between clubs, orchestrated through investment and promotional deals arranged by the stronger and more connected clubs for their star players.

These deals have one simple intention: to bolster the players' wages significantly outside the cap, so they stay at the club.

They are also sufficiently distant and justifiable to satisfy any AFL investigation under the current parameters.

This, it seems, is the new business of football management at the top end.

As one high-profile manager put it last week: "Some contracts take longer than others to orchestrate. The $700,000 that will go into the cap takes seven minutes. It's the rest that takes the time."

For $700,000 in the cap, the going rate is now closer to $1.1 million at some clubs.

Player managers and clubs are fully aware of their obligations under the cap. And Carlton's current plight is a weekly reminder of the ramifications of "illegally" transgressing.

So keeping deals "legal" is a must, but the managers are also aware that the market for some at the top end is not what money players make in the cap, but what opportunities and money can be made outside the cap in the business and investment world as an indirect part of their deals.

It is believed one Melbourne-based club has recently formed a committee to explore ways in which the club can better provide access to the business world for players so they can source profitable investments, which will then reduce monies in the cap.

One of the key issues is risk. If the player involves himself in commercial deals that can lose money as well as make money, the cap hasn't been compromised. But there is a strong view the deals are risk-free; that implied guarantees underpin many of these deals.

The changing nature of the marketplace has meant the level playing field intended by the cap has become distorted at best, with some clubs far better positioned to provide these benefits than others.

One man's investment advice, business opportunity, TV or promotional deal is another man's salary cap exploitation.

It would appear there is a major need for reassessment on their salary cap status.

In the current booming market, property, property trusts and share portfolios, where the entry price is generous and the exit price underwritten, promotional deals and endorsements with corporate friends of clubs are all now part of the "real" wages of an AFL footballer.

It is becoming such a significant and sophisticated part of the industry that in time the money gained off the ground will for some equal or dwarf that paid for services on it.

As such the cap is losing a significant amount of its power, the gap between clubs is widening and we are in danger of returning to the bad old days.

But how does an AFL inquiry determine if a wholesale block of land bought by a player is a cap item or a smart investment.

It's been investigated already by the AFL, as have house sales above "market" prices, but there has been no impropriety found, essentially because no guarantee was found, which is a long way short of it not existing.

One thing the AFL can do in the short term is address the antiquated restriction on clubs to pay at least 92.5 per cent of the cap.

The cap minimum has been shown to be flawed in the past five years. Carlton, which has won three wooden spoons in the period, has been forced to pay close enough to the same as the premier, West Coast.

This at a time when the Blues were going belly up financially, and might have gone under if not for the inspiration and financial clout of Dick Pratt.

Because of the 92.5 per cent mandate, the club was incapable of reducing its player wage bill significantly at a time when it was virtually bankrupt, and the player list at an all-time low.

Money that could have been shaved from wages should have been put into leadership programs, rehabilitation facilities, coaching and recruiting football department staff to get the club moving again.

In the early Denis Pagan years, costs were cut to the bone, the list dwindled, and the club became paralysed by a combination of its own mistakes, a parlous financial position and an overzealous AFL Commission.

But surprisingly Carlton, like every other club, is said to pay 100 per cent of the cap 100 per cent of the time.

Why would all clubs, top and bottom, be paying the same?

Something doesn't add up.

The 92.5 per cent rule was implemented in the days when Fitzroy was going to the wall and was designed to prevent the Lions from reducing salaries to an embarrassing level to survive, and possibly to help force the club to the financial wall.

Today in a very different AFL world, it has little relevance.

The AFL is now in the business of supporting clubs financially, not merging them, and that will long be the case given the TV and venue deals that require 16 teams.

There is also a powerful players' association to prevent exploitation that wasn't there in Fitzroy's final days.

Market forces should dictate the lower end of the cap to a greater degree so player payments more reflect performance, maturity and demand, not some arbitrary figure common to all.

Currently we have the best 10 players at Carlton and Richmond getting the same, if not more, than the best 10 at West Coast.

But the distortion is probably even greater in what is paid to the next 10 on the list, for it is depth as much as top-end talent that wins premierships.

It seems silly that when a club wins a flag, its biggest concern is keeping the list together because of an expectation of even greater reward for players.

Logic dictates this is the time you should be paying 100 per cent of the cap and not when you're on the bottom with a team of youngsters.

Room should always be left for the improvement of the list, but it never is. It doesn't make sense unless top-end players are earning big money outside the cap.

Fixing the bottom end may help diminish the demand for distortion at the top.

Open dialogue with the player managers is perhaps the first step in restoring the integrity of the cap.

According to one influential voice, the cap's imaginative loopholes are a difficult area that has become increasingly grey in recent years and "may be resolved only in the courts in time".

But if Carlton's pain of the past few years is to mean anything to the competition by way of deterrent, the AFL has a fight on its hands, a fight it must win.

But it's a fight the league is yet to acknowledge it is in.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 42,00.html



Not saying I agree with it Jeff but it is standard now days unfortunately I posted in anther thread earlier about it today. How can Carlton be paying nearly as much as West Coast in the salary cap. It's not really working it only stops big clubs grabbing everyone with talent rather than reducing the top clubs. How many players over the last 3 years have been forced to move on because of salary cap problems? the last I can remember is Caracella what 3 years ago now.


To the top
SS Life Member
Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2007 4:05pm
Been thanked: 390 times

Post: # 433830Post To the top »

Interesting that Thomas should raise this issue.

IF it is fact, and I am not commenting on that possibility at all, then it may well be a team that Thomas does not particularly like which is the subject of his comments?

Change the "interesting" to "very interesting".


JeffDunne

Post: # 433837Post JeffDunne »

ausfatcat, the reason bottom clubs should pay 100% of the cap is because if they don't they'll lose talent as fast as they accumulate it from the draft. If players aren't given a choice in where they play then they at least shouldn't have their earning capacity limited. The AFLPA pushed hard for the AFL to make sure all clubs could fund and pay near 100% of the cap. I don't know why Gerard links this to cap rorting.

Thanks for the article but it's more speculation than substance and to be frank, I reckon he's wrong on a few points. If a property deal is made as part of a salary negotiation and it's not declared, then it is cheating and in breach of the rules regardless of it returning a profit or a loss. If they declare it then any profit is included under the cap. If it's part of the negotiated salary - it's in.

Now if it's an offer from someone removed from the club and not part of the negotiatied salary then that clearly isn't. But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about deals as part of their salary package and they are in breach of the rules. I'm not suggesting these deals aren't being done, I'm suggesting I'm all for catching them out (hence why I'm happy GT made the comments).

You mention the lack of player movements as more evidence of cap rorting. It stands to reason though if a club like Carlton is paying near 100% of the cap then they're pretty well in the same boat as a team like West Coast. While they might be able to rejig their cap to accommodate a Judd, they really can't offer the sort of money that would make his head spin.


JeffDunne

Post: # 433839Post JeffDunne »

To the top wrote:Interesting that Thomas should raise this issue.

IF it is fact, and I am not commenting on that possibility at all, then it may well be a team that Thomas does not particularly like which is the subject of his comments?

Change the "interesting" to "very interesting".
I'm sure he had a reason for raising it.

Will be interesting to see if the AFL are as keen to talk to him as they were with Aker?


User avatar
ausfatcat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6516
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Post: # 433840Post ausfatcat »

totally agree the salary cap should be the salary cap. And the payments all be included in there..... But look at the NRL nearly every year a club has to get rid of a player they want to keep because of the salary cap why doesn't this happen in the AFL??? If it means no deals outside of the salary cap so be it (even if they aren't guarenteed) and if this means a big jump in the salary cap so be it but it should be cut out.


User avatar
Mr Magic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 12701
Joined: Fri 04 May 2007 9:38am
Has thanked: 717 times
Been thanked: 401 times

Post: # 433841Post Mr Magic »

To the top wrote:Interesting that Thomas should raise this issue.

IF it is fact, and I am not commenting on that possibility at all, then it may well be a team that Thomas does not particularly like which is the subject of his comments?

Change the "interesting" to "very interesting".
The only way it could be a team other than us is if the manager of a player from another team approached Gt to offer his services to the Saints as GT only did contracts for the Saints and not any other club.

I'm not sure if I was a player I would be happy with my manager approaching the coach of a rival club to talk about my plans?

This raises another 'sticky' area of GT's role at teh Saints, 1 that I honestly never thought about previously. Does this mean that GT was actively seeking out players from other clubs whilst coach of a rival? That would be against AFL rules I would have thought? Would this have placed us at a disadvantage to other Clubs where the 2 roles (coach and contract negotiations) were divorced from each other?


Post Reply