Where are all the Lyon supporters now ?

[maverick]

Why are the players getting a free pass, and all the heat is on Ross Lyon? Sure, the buck stops with him, and no doubt he'll pay the price if our crappy form continues, but seriously;

Saying that Dal used to tackle, but doesn't now. What, Ross has convinced him not to?
Roo misses a goal from 20 metres dead in front. What, Ross was hanging onto his foot so he'd miss?


The players collectively are not performing at an acceptable level. And they are the ones who need to turn it around, or they'll end up off the list.

Coaches look sensational when their players are in form, and like crap when they're not. But only the players can kick, mark, handball, tackle, and run.

Some absolute rubbish in this thread:

According to Dodg we now conclusivley know Lyon cant teach.
Dan says (still!!) the same list as 2004 is there....f@rk me!!
Jeff wants the coach sacked.....
Babblelots?
Saints43 cant make a cohesive point or understand "lets assess when we have enough time/information to"
Others reckon he has to go bny Rd 14...
F@rk me we even had people on here suggesting Lyon had to go cause he wasnt a "St Kilda" person - whats the matter with some tw!ts...cant they handle an outside opinion telling them not everything is as rosy at St Kilda as they in utopia land like to believe??????

What is astounding is we STILL as supporters WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT face up to facts - we are carrying overrated players and HAVE NOT replenished the team sufficiently since 2004.

Im all for replacing anyone/anything to get us where we need to be but sack a coach who has had 1 draft and isnt even half way through his contract is simply stunningly Richmond-like and bizarre...

Im amazed we have so many of their supporters - and NOT supporters who are prepared to ask some hard, confronting questions of players performing well below AFL standard when they cross the white line.

Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

IF Lyon is dragging the team down....whats wrong with these 2???.........why are they performing?? or Hudgton for that matter this year????THE REASON IS because they are PROFESSIONAL AFL footballers who dont require "John Kennedy speeches" at every 3qtr time to motivate them - these guys have enough pride in their performance and respect for the jumper that they bust their gut no mater what - do others??????(just try and be honest here??)

As DAC said in such an inept display it isnt the coach who wont run, wont tackle, misses targets and makes pathetic and dumb decisions on a footy field - thats players.

I just hope that the time has come that St Kilda recognises some hard questions need answering and that we dont opt for the easy "out". As I said by all means replace the coach but do so after hes had a chance and dont let lazy, soft players walk away scott free.

Look this is very well and good, and i do think some good points are made.

However, these need to be answered:

Why is BJ being butchered down back as a third man up in a contest?
Why is SF being played as a KPP?
Why do we have no forward structure?
Why is the delivery into the forward line, by far the worst in the league?
Why can we win clearances, but never take the ball (cleanly) away?
Why has none of our players furthered their development under Lyon?
Why can the opposition kick so many unanswered goals, without moves being made to stem the flow?
Why are 2nd's players, quite clearly out of form being played before youngsters?

RL is showing no sign of understanding the list issues he has, continues to pcik teams from "names" and not current output and will not make a move during the game to change its course.

I am worried, because in 31 games I have seen no improvement in the players understanding of what is going on. I think gameplans are BS personally, but what I see us doing out there, even when we do win, is not sustainable to win finals and GF's in my opinion. We are too easilt tactically beaten, which is ironic, given this was GT's biggest so called failure.

Yes the players are accountable, but the direction is terrible IMO.

[Saints43]

Are they stupid? They're footballers.

Of course everybody should work as hard at their jobs as they can.
But they don't, do they?

And that's the coach's fault is it? Unless he instructs them to work hard, and enforces it somehow, they don't have to?

Isn't it their own responsibility to work the team plan as much as is humanly possible? If they do that, and still play poorly, then it's the plan that's wrong, and the coach should wear that. But on recent form how on earth can you evaluate the game plan properly given the insipid efforts of our supposed team of quality?

Look, I agree with you. They should work as hard as they can every minute of every day. Of course they should. So should you. So should I. So should everybody.

But we don't. Niether will they.

But, do you think any coach should rely on that sort of attitude in 38 young men?

If a coach turns up at any club and think that motivational issues are going to take care of themselves then I think that's a worry.

Every aspect of player performance needs to be managed for a club to be successful. Especially if they haven't achieved any individual/team success before.

Why would you assume that most players on our list (or most lists) are self-managed self-motivators?

Because they can kick a footy?

[Teflon]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

Are you saying that Dal Santo was born with the same physiological capacity as Robert Harvey? That's ridiculous.

Why don't you read the whole post instead of aruguing for arguments sake?

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Oh, hang on. I've already written that...

Nah...you just wrote that Hayes, Harvey AND Hudgton who give their ALL every week "just got lucky".....yeah...thats all..

The rest need a baby sitter...

F@rk me ...its worse than I thought....

[Teflon]

What a copout that is. No-one expects the same output as Harvey. Just the same input.

"Sorry, I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand I need to work hard".

What are they, stupid? It's not rocket science. Get your fingers out and work hard! If you need examples of how that looks watch R. Harvey ply his trade.

Jack Nicklaus said 'The harder I work the luckier I get'. It remains true today.

Are they stupid? They're footballers.

Of course everybody should work as hard at their jobs as they can.
But they don't, do they?

Not everyone on Geelongs list is Robert Harvey - they ALL work hard and when they stopped working hard like last Friday they got smashed........was Thompson a coach with a shyte game plan last Friday?????? did he suddenly stop "motivating" and "leading" OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE the players let the entire club down with a poor performance????

I can not believe you lay the entire blame for gutless, ill disciplined efforts on field by players ENTIRELY at the feet of the coach.

So typically "st kilda"....blame the coach....geezus Im starting to think supporters are soft also...

[Shaggy]

So typically "st kilda"....blame the coach....geezus Im starting to think supporters are soft also...

To be fair Teflon that is exactly what you did 2 years ago and if posters didn't accept it than you would say they accepted "mediocrity" (by the way we are currently very mediocre by all standards).

[Teflon]

So typically "st kilda"....blame the coach....geezus Im starting to think supporters are soft also...

To be fair Teflon that is exactly what you did 2 years ago and if posters didn't accept it than you would say they accepted "mediocrity" (by the way we are currently very mediocre by all standards).

Call me Jeff.....Shaggy but do show me 1 post LESS THAN HALF WAY through Grant Thomas tenure where I said sack him????

Look forward to reading it.

THATS MY POINT.

Im not defending Lyon for the sake of Lyon...more for the sake of a club that would demonstrate to ALL that we cant hold our nerve and that we are rabble.

[JeffDunne]

You make me laugh Teffers.

Robert Mugabe has more credibility than you.

[Teflon]

You make me laugh Teffers.

Robert Mugabe has more credibility than you.

Thats hard hitting Jeffery and well demonstrates your 'cosmopolitan' qualities...

Your pathetic and constant "sack the coach" attempts do smack of a Robert Mugabe knee jerk reaction.....

Hows the arse picking this evening?

[Shaggy]

So typically "st kilda"....blame the coach....geezus Im starting to think supporters are soft also...

To be fair Teflon that is exactly what you did 2 years ago and if posters didn't accept it than you would say they accepted "mediocrity" (by the way we are currently very mediocre by all standards).

Call me Jeff.....Shaggy but do show me 1 post LESS THAN HALF WAY through Grant Thomas tenure where I said sack him????

Look forward to reading it.

THATS MY POINT.

Im not defending Lyon for the sake of Lyon...more for the sake of a club that would demonstrate to ALL that we cant hold our nerve and that we are rabble.

Clever.

But GT took us forward every year except 2006 which is the year you turned.

RL (one of few Fitzroy's former guns still having a say in AFL - not saying you as a former Fitzroy supporter are biased) hasn't taking us forward yet.

[Teflon]

So typically "st kilda"....blame the coach....geezus Im starting to think supporters are soft also...

To be fair Teflon that is exactly what you did 2 years ago and if posters didn't accept it than you would say they accepted "mediocrity" (by the way we are currently very mediocre by all standards).

Call me Jeff.....Shaggy but do show me 1 post LESS THAN HALF WAY through Grant Thomas tenure where I said sack him????

Look forward to reading it.

THATS MY POINT.

Im not defending Lyon for the sake of Lyon...more for the sake of a club that would demonstrate to ALL that we cant hold our nerve and that we are rabble.

Clever.

But GT took us forward every year except 2006 which is the year you turned.

RL (one of few Fitzroy's former guns still having a say in AFL - not saying it makes you biased) hasn't taking us forward at all yet.

shaggy Im not trying to be clever - Im being honest.

I had problems with Thomas when we lost the prelim in 05 - I had enormous problems watch a depleted, cr@p Geelong side flood us out of victory in Harveys club record breaking game and watched as we had no way to combat it time and again.

Thanks for reminding me of the Fitzroy link......I have fond memories of Lyon he was a great player but IF after hes been given a reasonable chance to mould a side hes still not delivering then he has to go. But NOT before some of the lazy,soft , "admired on pedastal", metro-salon, wanna be AFL players have been weeded out.

[Saints43]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

Are you saying that Dal Santo was born with the same physiological capacity as Robert Harvey? That's ridiculous.

Why don't you read the whole post instead of aruguing for arguments sake?

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Oh, hang on. I've already written that...

Nah...you just wrote that Hayes, Harvey AND Hudgton who give their ALL every week "just got lucky".....yeah...thats all..

The rest need a baby sitter...

F@rk me ...its worse than I thought....

Are you retarded?

When quoting try using the actual words written. Illiterate.

You are honestly the biggest idiot I have never had the pleasure to meet.

No, I don't want fries with that.

[Teflon]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

Are you saying that Dal Santo was born with the same physiological capacity as Robert Harvey? That's ridiculous.

Why don't you read the whole post instead of aruguing for arguments sake?

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Oh, hang on. I've already written that...

Nah...you just wrote that Hayes, Harvey AND Hudgton who give their ALL every week "just got lucky".....yeah...thats all..

The rest need a baby sitter...

F@rk me ...its worse than I thought....

Are you retarded?

When quoting try using the actual words written. Illiterate.

You are honestly the biggest idiot I have never had the pleasure to meet.

No, I don't want fries with that.

Thats a lovely attack on those less fortunate than yourself.....hmm...says more about the kind of person you are...

Id save the "illiterate" comments for the fool making dumb suggestions like player EFFORT comes down to luck......now that would be illiterate (uninformed if you must know)

I think you've just been "upsized" to a super tw!t meal deal.

[Saints43]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

Are you saying that Dal Santo was born with the same physiological capacity as Robert Harvey? That's ridiculous.

Why don't you read the whole post instead of aruguing for arguments sake?

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Oh, hang on. I've already written that...

Nah...you just wrote that Hayes, Harvey AND Hudgton who give their ALL every week "just got lucky".....yeah...thats all..

The rest need a baby sitter...

F@rk me ...its worse than I thought....

Are you retarded?

When quoting try using the actual words written. Illiterate.

You are honestly the biggest idiot I have never had the pleasure to meet.

No, I don't want fries with that.

Thats a lovely attack on those less fortunate than yourself.....hmm...says more about the kind of person you are...

Id save the "illiterate" comments for the fool making dumb suggestions like player EFFORT comes down to luck......now that would be illiterate (uninformed if you must know)

I think you've just been "upsized" to a super tw!t meal deal.

I was serious. You have extemely low comprehension skills and I think that you should declare any deficiency in that area if you are going to use language in a public forum. It would save a lot of people a lot of time.

Here's a the jist of what I wrote. Nothing like you have understood. Note the word 'and'. Let me know if you disagree and why. Or not.

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Those players without both attributes need to be managed.

[St.Kenny]

Teflon is clearly enjoying attention of being RL's lone supporter.

He has 'blood on his hands' over GT's removal now he tells us all to stick with him and his good mate RL who will get us closer to the bounty. Meanwhile we slide deeper into oblivion with the most ineffective game plan i've ever seen in 30 odd years following this club. Added this the lack of passion ............and we have a club which is gradually in free fall.

But I gaurantee supporters of his 'blind and stubborn pedigree' will still argue black and blue that we are on the right track. Well if the right track is heading to oblivion I guess he's right all along.

[Teflon]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

LMFAO...NEVER FEAR ST DAC according to Saints 43 your illiterate and he never mentioned the word "luck" in the above drivel...

F@rk thats funny.

Sainst43 can I suggest if you want ANYONE to read and take seriously the sad tripe you trot out AT LEAST be able to communicate in a manner that makes your usual stuttering nonsense remotely clear....

I understand its ALL the coaches fault.

Excellent point you academic you......

[Saints43]

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

So the Harvey and Hayes workrate is just dumb luck or good fortune, and everyone else needs a coach to tell them to work hard?

How about the players take responsibility for their own performances, and do the work necessary to perform at an acceptable level.

If only so they can look Harvey and Hayes in the eyes without embarrassment.

LMFAO...NEVER FEAR ST DAC according to Saints 43 your illiterate and he never mentioned the word "luck" in the above drivel...

F@rk thats funny.

Sainst43 can I suggest if you want ANYONE to read and take seriously the sad tripe you trot out AT LEAST be able to communicate in a manner that makes your usual stuttering nonsense remotely clear....

I understand its ALL the coaches fault.

Excellent point you academic you......

Of course I mentioned the word 'luck'. Never said I didn't.

Do you think that all players that end up on an AFL list have the same mental and physical capabilities?

I'm pretty sure that Jason Blake didn't decide to be an ordinary kick of the football. You are born with it or you are not (small training improvements aside). That's luck.

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Those players without both attributes need to be managed.

[Teflon]

I'm pretty sure that Jason Blake didn't decide to be an ordinary kick of the football. You are born with it or you are not (small training improvements aside). That's luck.

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Those players without both attributes need to be managed.

You silly man.

Let me explain something - I emphasise 'try'.

NOBODY needs luck to work hard. You dont just get to work each day and "have a lucky day working hard" - you either HAVE A GO or you dont. To many imposters wearing St Kilda jumpers against Brisbane DID NOT have a go - look at the tackle count if you dont believe me for an example (and do explain how thats the coaches fault why your at it???)

Your confusing "ABILITY" (see your lame Blake example above) WITH "EFFORT/INTENSITY" Watch the EFFORT from Collingwood's "lessor" so called list on Friday for a lesson in HAVING A GO.

They didnt just get "lucky" or suddenly gain superhiman capabilities they had a GO......and last I saw not every player on the Pies list was blessed with the skills of Harvey/Hayes.

Do look up illiterate again though wont you?

[Saints43]

I'm pretty sure that Jason Blake didn't decide to be an ordinary kick of the football. You are born with it or you are not (small training improvements aside). That's luck.

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Those players without both attributes need to be managed.

You silly man.

Let me explain something - I emphasise 'try'.

NOBODY needs luck to work hard. You dont just get to work each day and "have a lucky day working hard" - you either HAVE A GO or you dont. To many imposters wearing St Kilda jumpers against Brisbane DID NOT have a go - look at the tackle count if you dont believe me for an example (and do explain how thats the coaches fault why your at it???)

Your confusing "ABILITY" (see your lame Blake example above) WITH "EFFORT/INTENSITY" Watch the EFFORT from Collingwood's "lessor" so called list on Friday for a lesson in HAVING A GO.

They didnt just get "lucky" or suddenly gain superhiman capabilities they had a GO......and last I saw not every player on the Pies list was blessed with the skills of Harvey/Hayes.

Do look up illiterate again though wont you?

You emphasise the phrase To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes

And then say you emphasise the word 'try'

You didn't use the word 'try' in that context. And neither did I.

I think you want to go back my earlier posts and read again (the first time I would reckon).

I make no excuses (except for human nature) for players not trying their best all the time but state that the management of this club cannot expect them to perform at the highest level without supervision.

It is not realistic to just expect high performance from all staff with no intervention.

[Teflon]

I'm pretty sure that Jason Blake didn't decide to be an ordinary kick of the football. You are born with it or you are not (small training improvements aside). That's luck.

To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes you need both the physiological makeup and psychological make up.

Most players don't have both.

Those players without both attributes need to be managed.

You silly man.

Let me explain something - I emphasise 'try'.

NOBODY needs luck to work hard. You dont just get to work each day and "have a lucky day working hard" - you either HAVE A GO or you dont. To many imposters wearing St Kilda jumpers against Brisbane DID NOT have a go - look at the tackle count if you dont believe me for an example (and do explain how thats the coaches fault why your at it???)

Your confusing "ABILITY" (see your lame Blake example above) WITH "EFFORT/INTENSITY" Watch the EFFORT from Collingwood's "lessor" so called list on Friday for a lesson in HAVING A GO.

They didnt just get "lucky" or suddenly gain superhiman capabilities they had a GO......and last I saw not every player on the Pies list was blessed with the skills of Harvey/Hayes.

Do look up illiterate again though wont you?

You emphasise the phrase To work as hard as Harvey and Hayes

And then say you emphasise the word 'try'

You didn't use the word 'try' in that context. And neither did I.

I think you want to go back my earlier posts and read again (the first time I would reckon).

I make no excuses (except for human nature) for players not trying their best all the time but state that the management of this club cannot expect them to perform at the highest level without supervision.

It is not realistic to just expect high performance from all staff with no intervention.

Oh FFS your being stupid.

You made a dumb statement. I called you on it. St DAC called you on it. Get over it - it happens.

"Try" to stay focussed...

[Saints43]

Oh FFS your being stupid.

You made a dumb statement. I called you on it. St DAC called you on it. Get over it - it happens.

"Try" to stay focussed...

I made the following statement which I discussed with St DAC and which you didn't understand. Really, debate what I actually say ordon't reply.

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

That they get the most out of themselves (work-rate wise) all the time is an absolute credit to them. I would say the same of Max, Baker, Blake, Fisher, Ball & Riewoldt. I'm not including first or second year players - they're capacities are unknown.

Most players, I would think, need to be managed to get the most out of themselves. In the same way that very few people go to work and give their all every day. It's not just once a week that players need to give their all - it's every training session. If we want to be successful.

No club in this salary cap age is going to have 20 players on a list of 38 who are self-motivated & self-managed (I believe these are Lyons terms) and have the skills sufficient not to be lambasted by supporters the way Blake etc. are. These players are Daniel Kerr, Chris Judd, Luke Hodge, Ryan O'Keefe etc.

There will be players (most) on the list who will require significant management to get the best performances out of themselves.

They need to be lead by a leader.

How many players has Robert Harvey sat down with in a dressing room after a game having run himself into the ground when others haven't? They don't just 'get inspired' because Harves works hard. It's not that simple. And wasn't when Bob Skilton played either.

And work-rate is only one aspect of the team we need to be getting right. There's plenty more to do.

[Teflon]

[Ask yourself - HOW CAN ROBERT HARVEY perform as he did on the weekend? or Lenny Hayes???????? what sets these two apart from some others?????

IF Lyon is dragging the team down....whats wrong with these 2???.........why are they performing?? or Hudgton for that matter this year????THE REASON IS because they are PROFESSIONAL AFL footballers who dont require "John Kennedy speeches" at every 3qtr time to motivate them - these guys have enough pride in their performance and respect for the jumper that they bust their gut no mater what - do others??????(just try and be honest here??)

First of all Harvey and Hayes are elite (most overused word in football) athletes. As you say they have a superior mental attitude to most but they also have the luck to be born with the capacity to perform at a higher level than most.

That they get the most out of themselves (work-rate wise) all the time is an absolute credit to them. I would say the same of Max, Baker, Blake, Fisher, Ball & Riewoldt. I'm not including first or second year players - they're capacities are unknown.

Most players, I would think, need to be managed to get the most out of themselves. In the same way that very few people go to work and give their all every day. It's not just once a week that players need to give their all - it's every training session. If we want to be successful.

No club in this salary cap age is going to have 20 players on a list of 38 who are self-motivated & self-managed (I believe these are Lyons terms) and have the skills sufficient not to be lambasted by supporters the way Blake etc. are. These players are Daniel Kerr, Chris Judd, Luke Hodge, Ryan O'Keefe etc.

There will be players (most) on the list who will require significant management to get the best performances out of themselves.

They need to be lead by a leader.

How many players has Robert Harvey sat down with in a dressing room after a game having run himself into the ground when others haven't? They don't just 'get inspired' because Harves works hard. It's not that simple. And wasn't when Bob Skilton played either.

And work-rate is only one aspect of the team we need to be getting right. There's plenty more to do.

I'll give this one more go.

Lets be clear you responded (above) to my original comments where I talked about Harvey, Hayes, Hudgton BUSTING THIER GUTS week in week out. Your response went on to confuse my post (which is ALL about effort) with talk of output and performance and ABILITY- this will obviously differ from player to player depending on skill. Effort doesnt have to if you believe GT's maxim 100% effort 100% of the time...

What you then go on to say simplistically is that self motivation for 20 or so players in this salary cap age is not possible - RUBBISH. We are talking about high performance athletes - we are looking at sides like Geelong, Swans in recent years, West Coast, Hawks of the 80's etc etc - these are sides that had enormous SELF DISCIPLINE AND MOTIVATION to succeed. Any motivational theorist will tell you the highest form of motivation comnes from within - not from what a coach conjures up. THATS Lyons point.

In fact Thomas himself quite often spoke in these terms and in that I agree with him when he talked of this team "wanting to create its own destiny" - what hes doing is handing the motivation BACK to the players to say "you say you want this now you perform"

To pretend that players at AFL level arent performing cause Ross Lyon hasnt got them "up" to wear the jumper with pride (which clearly some arent) to compete at this level or to suggest its because he is not "leading" them is naive at best.

[St.Kenny]

Any motivational theorist will tell you the highest form of motivation comnes from within - not from what a coach conjures up. THATS Lyons point.

So the coach doesnt really matter is what your intimating.....or our decline is not RL's fault because his role as motivator is secondary?
Now i'm confused because your confused.

[St DAC]

People, it's not personal. I was debating Saints43, and don't agree with his/her view, but it's a debate, not a slanging match.

Thanks for the support Teflon; I agree the players shouldn't need baby sitting. But the other point is also true; the buck does stop with Lyon, he's clearly aware of that, and will make some calls on some careers by season's end. If he doesn't, then by all means he'll have shown he can't do the business, but I think it's way too early to say that now.

Let's see where we finish, and what he proposes to do about it before calling for his head and promoting yet another bloody coup that makes us look so bloody amateur.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

To pretend that players at AFL level arent performing cause Ross Lyon hasnt got them "up" to wear the jumper with pride (which clearly some arent) to compete at this level or to suggest its because he is not "leading" them is naive at best.

And to pretend there isn't a long history of players giving more for some coaches than others is even more naive.

I agree with you and all others who say it shouldn't be required for Lyon to make them play hard, work hard, play with passion, etc... the trouble is, "should" and "is" are a world apart. I think it was pretty clear on Sunday that whatever apportioning of blame is done, that with the players giving an effort like that, Lyon could have had the tactical nous of Napoleon and it wouldn't have helped, because the players weren't on.

The trouble comes because we know the players we've got are capable of so much more and not delivering. If that's how they're going to deliver, it's not fair to Lyon, but the fastest road to better success may simply be to have a better motivator.

If the coach can't get the players to take responsibility for their own actions, there's not much else he can do, which unfotunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective) doesn't mean there's not something someone else could do.

[Saints43]

I'll give this one more go.

Lets be clear you responded (above) to my original comments where I talked about Harvey, Hayes, Hudgton BUSTING THIER GUTS week in week out. Your response went on to confuse my post (which is ALL about effort) with talk of output and performance and ABILITY- this will obviously differ from player to player depending on skill. Effort doesnt have to if you believe GT's maxim 100% effort 100% of the time...

What you then go on to say simplistically is that self motivation for 20 or so players in this salary cap age is not possible - RUBBISH. We are talking about high performance athletes - we are looking at sides like Geelong, Swans in recent years, West Coast, Hawks of the 80's etc etc - these are sides that had enormous SELF DISCIPLINE AND MOTIVATION to succeed. Any motivational theorist will tell you the highest form of motivation comnes from within - not from what a coach conjures up. THATS Lyons point.

In fact Thomas himself quite often spoke in these terms and in that I agree with him when he talked of this team "wanting to create its own destiny" - what hes doing is handing the motivation BACK to the players to say "you say you want this now you perform"

To pretend that players at AFL level arent performing cause Ross Lyon hasnt got them "up" to wear the jumper with pride (which clearly some arent) to compete at this level or to suggest its because he is not "leading" them is naive at best.

Thanks for talking about the post only.

I understand what you are saying and in an ideal world I agree that players should be self-motivated self-managed athletes.

But I don't think the majority of them are - and I don't think the the majority of them ever will be.

If we are waiting for a list of 20 or so self-motivated self-managed players to be sitting in the dressing room all at once we will be waiting a long time.