Finals Fixturing Question/Proposition

[barks4eva]

Can anyone tell me which side of the draw prevents you meeting Geelong until a Grand Final, providing that Geelong win their first final

5 v 8

6 v 7

So the question is does which winner of the above two games would avoid meeting Geelong until a Grand final, providing Geelong win their first final and progress? Winner of 5 v 8 or 6 v 7?


Personally speaking I believe the AFL system is flawed and in every week of the finals, the games should be decided on ranking, with the highest placed team from the bottom half of the 8 meeting the lowest ranked team in the top half of the 8 each week until the Grand final.

Therefore if 8th were to beat 5th, they would still have the highest ranked team after as their opponent, in the following 2nd week of the finals series.

[HarveysDeciple]

as far as I am aware, the highest ranker winner of the elimination finals plays the highest ranked loser of the qualifying finals.

so if the cats win, the highest ranked loser would be either the hawks or dogs.

if we finish say 5th and win then we would cop the dogs or hawks, and then cats in the prelim if we got through.

if we finished 6th, and the team that was 5th had a win, we'd probably cop the roos in the semi, then either the hawks or dogs in the prelim.

[The Saintsational Man]

5 v 8

[GrumpyOne]

Can anyone tell me which side of the draw prevents you meeting Geelong until a Grand Final, providing that Geelong win their first final

5 v 8

6 v 7

So the question is does which winner of the above two games would avoid meeting Geelong until a Grand final, providing Geelong win their first final and progress? Winner of 5 v 8 or 6 v 7?

5 vs 8

[The Saintsational Man]

Just copied this from google somewhere;

For example, in 2005, the standings, or ladder as it is called in Australian Rules was:

Adelaide
West Coast
Sydney
St. Kilda

Kangaroos
Geelong
Melbourne
Port Adelaide

Therefore, the first week of finals was:
1st Elimination Final: Port Adelaide defeated the Kangaroos, eliminating the Kangaroos
2nd Elimination Final: Geelong defeated Melbourne, eliminating Melbourne
1st Qualifying Final: St. Kilda defeated Adelaide, relegating Adelaide to a semi-final and St Kilda advanced to the Preliminary Final
2nd Qualifying Final: West Coast defeated Sydney, relegating Sydney to a semi-final and advanced to the Preliminary Final

The second week was the Semi-Finals:

1st Semi-Final: Adelaide defeated Port Adelaide, eliminating Port and advancing to the Preliminary Final
2nd Semi-Final: Sydney defeated Geelong, eliminating Geelong, advancing to the Preliminary Final

The third week was the Preliminary Finals:

1st Preliminary Final: Sydney defeated St. Kilda, eliminating St. Kilda and advanced to the Grand Final
2nd Preliminary Final: West Coast defeated Adelaide, eliminating Adelaide and advanced to the Grand Final.

Week 4: Grand Final: Sydney defeated West Coast for the “premiershipâ€

[barks4eva]

5 v 8

OK

This is the anomaly with the current system!

If 8th beat 5th, then they get a better position than the winner of 6th and 7th.

It should be fixtured each week dependant upon the rankings, not decided as a fixed path at the start of the finals series, which is what it currently does.

If 5th beats 8th, it stays the same, if 8th beat 5th, then surely, the winner of 6th and 7th should take over this side of the finals draw.

[Superboot]

5 v 8

OK

This is the anomaly with the current system!

If 8th beat 5th, then they get a better position than the winner of 6th and 7th.

It should be fixtured each week dependant upon the rankings, not decided as a fixed path at the start of the finals series, which is what it currently does.

If 5th beats 8th, it stays the same, if 8th beat 5th, then surely, the winner of 6th and 7th should take over this side of the finals draw.

I agree.

Should be the highest placed winner that gets the advantage. Team that finishes 6th shouldn't lose the advantage over the team that finishes 8th just because the latter has a one-off win against supposedly tougher opposition.

[The Saintsational Man]

If your good enough.....you'll win it anyway.

Just keep it how it is.

There are far worse systems going around at the moment.

[Eastern]

I think you will find that 2 v 3 needs to be thrown into the mix as it has a bearing on whether or not there is a cross-over. Too bloody complicated for me !!

[realdeal]

If your good enough to beat the 5th ranked team then i believe your entitled to then take their spot in the fixturing. I think this is the fairest finals system you could probably get. Remember the wonderful system they had in '92'?

[Life Long Saint]

The 1991 system was worse...

1 v 2
3 v 4 in an elimination
5 v 6 in an elimination

Winner of 3 v 4 gets a double chance against the winner of 1 v 2
The winner of the that goes straight to Grand Final. Loser to prelim.

Winner of 5 v 6 plays loser of 1 v 2. Winner to Prelim.

Stupid, stupid system that only lasted one year.

What were they thinking???

[barks4eva]

The 1991 system was worse...

1 v 2
3 v 4 in an elimination
5 v 6 in an elimination

Winner of 3 v 4 gets a double chance against the winner of 1 v 2
The winner of the that goes straight to Grand Final. Loser to prelim.

Winner of 5 v 6 plays loser of 1 v 2. Winner to Prelim.

Stupid, stupid system that only lasted one year.

What were they thinking???

Obviously they weren't!

Said to a mate before the 91 season that some team that finishes either 3rd or 4th is going to get shafted by this stupid system implemented by laterally challenged goofballs.


It ended up being us

[barks4eva]

This is the anomaly with the current system!

If 8th beat 5th, then they get a better position than the winner of 6th and 7th.

It should be fixtured each week dependant upon the rankings, not decided as a fixed path at the start of the finals series, which is what it currently does.

If 5th beats 8th, it stays the same, if 8th beat 5th, then surely, the winner of 6th and 7th should take over this side of the finals draw.

I agree.

Should be the highest placed winner that gets the advantage. Team that finishes 6th shouldn't lose the advantage over the team that finishes 8th just because the latter has a one-off win against supposedly tougher opposition.

EXACTLY



Having said that, it's hardly a level playing field anyway as the FIXture that determines these rankings is way out of whack to begin with.

[Life Long Saint]

The 1991 system was worse...

1 v 2
3 v 4 in an elimination
5 v 6 in an elimination

Winner of 3 v 4 gets a double chance against the winner of 1 v 2
The winner of the that goes straight to Grand Final. Loser to prelim.

Winner of 5 v 6 plays loser of 1 v 2. Winner to Prelim.

Stupid, stupid system that only lasted one year.

What were they thinking???

Obviously they weren't!

Said to a mate before the 91 season that some team that finishes either 3rd or 4th is going to get shafted by this stupid system implemented by laterally challenged goofballs.


It ended up being us

Ken McIntyre (the inventor of the system) had a wonderful final five system that did not need to change. Five teams out of fifteen was ample to make the finals. The money hungry screwed up the best finals system we've ever had to implement a two versions of a final six that never worked!

[Batnoe]

it will make the GF more enjoyable knowing we can beat them,

why make it and then lose?

i say knock the cats out and then go in and win against anyone else

[saintbrat]

it's all in the little brochure the club/ afl sent yesterday
- I just pray we win so we get a home first final;

BUt heard today that someone though Paul roos was manipulating his team and reasults to the extent of finishing 8th so they didn't have to play Geelong till the Grand final


Personally I would prefer to see a team going out and winning each quarter and ech game and getting into a Winning ' Routine'
instead of relying on an ' ability' to turn it on when needed.

[saintspremiers]

This is the anomaly with the current system!

If 8th beat 5th, then they get a better position than the winner of 6th and 7th.

It should be fixtured each week dependant upon the rankings, not decided as a fixed path at the start of the finals series, which is what it currently does.

If 5th beats 8th, it stays the same, if 8th beat 5th, then surely, the winner of 6th and 7th should take over this side of the finals draw.

I agree.

Should be the highest placed winner that gets the advantage. Team that finishes 6th shouldn't lose the advantage over the team that finishes 8th just because the latter has a one-off win against supposedly tougher opposition.

EXACTLY



Having said that, it's hardly a level playing field anyway as the FIXture that determines these rankings is way out of whack to begin with.

barks, you are deadset right and the AFL must go with your suggestion.

Perhaps email it to our club to suggest to Heil Hitler....no point in emailing the Gestapo directly as it will get ignored.

Perhaps write a letter to the Hun/Age and call SEN....although most of them wouldn't understand you and probably just say "leave it alone, the best team will win the flag" typical uneducated crappola!

Under your system, there still of course needs to be the crossover from the Semi's to Prelim's, so if 8th beat 5th under your system, they'd play the loser of 2nd vs 3rd in the Semi's, and the winner of that match would play the winner of 1st vs 4th (ie Geelong) in the Prelim's.

So....

With 8th team winning their first Elim final, they'd (most likely) cop Geelong in the Prelims, whilst if the 5th team won, and then beat the loser of 1st vs 4th in the Semi's, they cop Footscray or Hawthorn in the Prelims.

You are a bloody genius barks, way too smart for the AFL IMO!!

Ok, can anyone pick a flaw in barks idea? I can't.

Home finals aren't effected - the losers of the Quallys in week one can still host a home final in the Semis.....week 1 home finals structure stays as is.

Whilst it uses rankings, unlike the old final 8 rankings system, there are two elim finals and 2 quallys....lose the elims and you are gone, regardless...lose the quallys and you get a second chance.

100% kosher to me, so it should happen next year for sure.

Why the AFL hasn't picked up this flaw until now is beyond me.....or perhaps they have, but just don't want to change the system and admit they got it wrong, yet again!

[barks4eva]

thanks for your kind words sp,

All I'm saying is that instead of setting in stone the two finals paths before a final is even played, make it dependent upon rankings on a weekly basis.

Example

if 5th beat 8th they would play the lowest ranked loser from the top 4 of the 8 in week 2

if 8th beat 5th they would play the highest ranked loser from the top 4 of the 8 in week 2

The current system does not differentiate between 5th and 8th in the fixturing from week 2 on

winner of 6th v 7th would play the lowest ranked loser from the top 4 of the 8 in week 2, if 8th beat 5th, but the highest ranked if 5th beat 8th

So a team that finishes 6th for example would meet the lowest ranked team in the prelim, for example either Hawthorn or Bulldogs instead of Geelong if the 8th ranked team also made it as far as the prelim.

At the moment the 8th ranked team would avoid the number 1 ranked team until a grand final if they made it that far, assuming of course that the number 1 ranked team won their first final, whereas a team that finished 6th would have to play Geelong in a prelim.

So therefore it unfairly advantages the 8th team over the 6th or 7th team if both win their first final.

By 8th defeating 5th in the first week throws the rankings out of whack and unfairly disadvantages the winner of 6th v 7th.

Solution, fixture, based on rankings on a week by week basis instead of setting it in stone from the outset, regardless.

[matrix]

BUt heard today that someone though Paul roos was manipulating his team and reasults to the extent of finishing 8th so they didn't have to play Geelong till the Grand final

and we should not be surprised at this.....i bet they havent been the only ones to try this ploy.
they would look at every scenario.

bastards

[Life Long Saint]

One of the principles of the current final eight is that no two sides will play each other twice prior to the Grand Final.

I don't agree with the principle myself.

However, this would stop the AFL changing to the b4e system as the same teams would be likely to meet in weeks one and three.

As I said in an earlier post the final five was the best system the AFL ever had. Given that it is no longer a possibility, I'd be all for extending the season to 30 rounds and not have finals at all (premier league style).

[evertonfc]

I like the current system. It gives you pole position from the first lap and gives you a big head start.

From there, you make your own luck.

It's much better than the 1994-1999 one, which rewarded teams who finished 5 & 6 as much as it did teams 3 & 4.

The 1992-3 wasn't bad for a final six (and allowed us to be 6th and displace 3rd-placed Collingwood in week one), but 1991 was absolutely diabolical.

[saintspremiers]

One of the principles of the current final eight is that no two sides will play each other twice prior to the Grand Final.

I don't agree with the principle myself.

However, this would stop the AFL changing to the b4e system as the same teams would be likely to meet in weeks one and three.

As I said in an earlier post the final five was the best system the AFL ever had. Given that it is no longer a possibility, I'd be all for extending the season to 30 rounds and not have finals at all (premier league style).

If they went with the rankings just to decide week 2 (as I pointed out), rather than rankings the whole way through then the crossover can be kept and everyone (ie. the AFL!) will be happy!

I agree with you re the final 5 and a 30 round season comments 100% btw, but Dimwit loves his finals corporate-wankfest!

[matrix]

no finals!!!


wash ya mouths out!!

get rid of the nab cup for starters, and everyone plays everyone twice
once home and once away.
be a nice long season once there's 18 teams in.

F*** the premier league system.
in finals anything can happen, thats the beauty of it.

[Davo027]

http://saints.com.au/Season2008/News/Ne ... wsId=66489

[saintspremiers]

http://saints.com.au/Season2008/News/Ne ... wsId=66489

Thanks Davo.

So I assume that since RL has stated he wants a 7 day break leading into the finals he is comfortable with us playing a home final at the MCG???