Coach gets Lyon's share of credit

[saintly]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 32,00.html

now these are interesting facts


Coach gets Lyon's share of creditFont Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print Stephen Rielly | September 17, 2008


ST KILDA's loss to Melbourne in the 2006 second elimination final was understandably seen as the end of a fascinating period in the club's history. Certainly it was the end for coach Grant Thomas, who was sacked days later.

At the time, there existed an undeniable sense of opportunity lost. The club had risen under the svengali-like Thomas to reach the 2004 and 2005 preliminary finals but appeared to be falling again by the time of the early exit.

The premiership window, opened by the arrival of Nick Riewoldt, Justin Koschitzke, Luke Ball, Brendon Goddard, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna and the Clarke brothers, Xavier and Raphael, looked to have closed and the question as to whether another long-haul, draft-led rebuild was required was being asked.

However, Thomas's successor, Ross Lyon, arrived with the conviction that oblivion, with its rich draft rewards, wasn't necessary. He saw evolution, rather than revolution.

When the Saints narrowly missed the finals last year, it looked far from certain that he was correct but as Lyon and the team prepare for what is the club's third preliminary final in five years, his understated way appears to have been vindicated.

St Kilda is back in the top four. Moreover, with a substantially different side to the one which last made it into the third week of September, in 2005, when it succumbed to a seven-goal final quarter by Sydney.

It was a side that contained Austinn Jones, Stephen Powell, Brett Voss, Cain Ackland, Andrew Thompson, Fraser Gehrig and, of course, the ageless Robert Harvey.

By contrast, the St Kilda team that defeated Collingwood in last Saturday night's semi-final contained seven players who had played fewer than 40 matches, only two of whom is older than 22.

Three of them, Sam Gilbert, Clint Jones and Raphael Clarke, who played his 40th and best game in red, black and white against the Magpies, comprised half of the St Kilda defence in the injury-enforced absences of Steven Baker, Maguire and Sean Dempster.

"I think at the start of the year, if you thought we were going to be playing in a prelim then you would have thought names like Baker, Maguire and Dempster, those sorts of guys, would be in the team," Riewoldt said yesterday.

"It's been really exciting and a real plus for the footy club, and something for our supporters to take real heart from, that we've been able to grow and develop some young players."

In fact, only 11 of the 22 who played in the 2005 preliminary final ran around against the Magpies.

Ball, Maguire and Baker were injured; Gehrig, Jones, Powell, Voss and Thompson retired; Brent Guerra and Ackland are playing elsewhere and Aaron Fiora was not selected.

In their place were Sam Fisher, Jason Gram, Gilbert, Andrew McQualter, Koschitzke, Steven King, Adam Schneider, David Armitage, Robert Eddy, Jones and Jarryd Allen, who injured a hip early in the match and may be replaced by Ball or Shane Birss on Saturday night against Hawthorn.

Lyon turned to youth mid-season, and dropped Dal Santo and Stephen Milne to do so, in part to slap down a complacency he saw as the root of the side's mediocrity to that point. In the space of a fortnight Eddy, McQualter, Ben McEvoy and Allen got their starts.

Lyon said yesterday that it was a mixture of change by design, injuries and form good and bad that sees almost a third of his side in AFL nappies and poised to improve next year.

"Ultimately, players pick themselves. Young players need to put performances on the board," Lyon said.

"And then some injuries and lack of form opened up those opportunities. But it's probably something that's been missed, from the weekend.

"There's been a lot of focus on our leaders but (having) six players under 30 or so games was significant for St Kilda, I thought.

"It's something that has flown under the radar. We were aware of that. We wanted to inject some youth.

"Fortunately, it's happened although the exact reasons ... sometimes it's circumstances."

[Mr Magic]

The first part of that article sounds like it was 'lifted' off here?

B4E are you really Stephen Reilly?

The use of the term 'Svengali' in describing GT is B4Esque!

[stinger]

"In fact, only 11 of the 22 who played in the 2005 preliminary final ran around against the Magpies.

Ball, Maguire and Baker were injured; Gehrig, Jones, Powell, Voss and Thompson retired; Brent Guerra and Ackland are playing elsewhere and Aaron Fiora was not selected.

In their place were Sam Fisher, Jason Gram, Gilbert, Andrew McQualter, Koschitzke, Steven King, Adam Schneider, David Armitage, Robert Eddy, Jones and Jarryd Allen, who injured a hip early in the match and may be replaced by Ball or Shane Birss on Saturday night against Hawthorn."




this is arguably a much better side than the 2005 side......

fiora has had his problems ..and ackland was a dud.........guerra dogged it in his last game for us...against the swannies....but could have gotten us into a grandfinal against port..if he had ony gotten his boot to the ball......


...the 2005 side was a more physical side ..imho .....


add...matty, bally and bakes to this side ...and it would be miles ahead......


...the future isn't real dark now is it.....


...premiership window closing......my fat arse.......

[WayneJudson42]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

I haven't done the math, but I recall reading in the Harvs tribute magazine his comment (which I'd noted previously looking acroos the numebrs) that after this year, with the retirements of Harvey and Gherig that our average age is going to go way down. I don't know if his comment that we'll be one of the youngest lists in the AFL is correct, but I believe the only player that will leave on the grisly side of 30 will be Hudghton.

If we can refrain from this turning into another old coach v new coach that would be pleasant, but I will say this: we do appear to be turning far more of an eye to method in turning young kids into AFL footballers, and we appear to be in a position where the end upside is more important than the speed with which they reach it.

As you say, that's an opportunity for the recruiters, and without being able to guage the ability of recruitment under Lyon (too soon) they do appear to be aware of it with the bottom age picks from a year ago.

It's an approach that won't please those hankering for rising star nominations, but I find myself this week being cautiously optomistic far more than I have been in a while.

[rodgerfox]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

I'm not sure anyone would say it's the same list.

What many argue, including myself, is that the core talent that made us a top 4 side in 04-05 is pretty much the same.

They're just older, stronger, more mature and most importantly mentally tougher now.

[meher baba]

Sigh......!!!

What a load of crap

ST KILDA's loss to Melbourne in the 2006 second elimination final was understandably seen as the end of a fascinating period in the club's history. Certainly it was the end for coach Grant Thomas, who was sacked days later.
At the time, there existed an undeniable sense of opportunity lost. The club had risen under the svengali-like Thomas to reach the 2004 and 2005 preliminary finals but appeared to be falling again by the time of the early exit.

The Board had already made up it's mind to sack Thomas by the time of the EF, so the line "it was the end for coach Grant Thomas" is misleading.

And as for the comment that "The club had risen..............but appeared to be falling again".

Not one journalist or football commentator (or even SS poster) suggested anything of the sort at the end of 2006. The general view of the Saints at the time was that we had unfairly manipulated the draft system to assemble an absolutely magnificent list. We were seen by most journalists as being injury-plagued and poorly coached, but otherwise as potential premiership-winners.

Suggestions that the window had close started about half way through 2007, when it became clear that we weren't travelling so well under Lyon.

By contrast, the St Kilda team that defeated Collingwood in last Saturday night's semi-final contained seven players who had played fewer than 40 matches, only two of whom is older than 22.

I suspect that the 2005 PF team probably contained more than 5 players under the age of 22, and it also included a fair number who had played fewer than 40 games including Raph and Gwilt

The interesting thing about Lyon's era as opposed to GT is it has actually been more difficult for young players to get into the senior team. Players such as Eddy, Jones, McQualter, Gwilt, Raph have been hanging around the fringes of AFL selection for quite a while. Armo has played very few senior games for a top 10 draft pick from 2 years ago. Allen has likewise had few opportunities.

The reason for this is not mainly because RL favours experienced players over the less experienced (although, for a coach who is now being praised for his commitment to youth, his reign has coincided with the arrival of an absolute s@#tload of ageing, recycled players). It is argely because the club has a settled, experienced core of players mostly aged 22-27.

As the season has worn on, younger and fringe players have been getting a better crack at the top grade at our club because of prolonged or season-ending injuries to Gehrig and Maguire and, more recently, Ball and Dempster as well as serious loss of form on the part of players such as Fiora, Leigh Fisher and Gardi.

I think it is totally reasonable for Lyon to be praised for improving our defence, for having developed some players, and for recruiting several recycled players who have added something (particularly King, Birss and Dempster: I remain to be convinced about the rest, even Schneider).

But it's a bit of a giggle to see Lyon being praised for giving the young fellas a go.

[WayneJudson42]

Sigh......!!!

What a load of crap

ST KILDA's loss to Melbourne in the 2006 second elimination final was understandably seen as the end of a fascinating period in the club's history. Certainly it was the end for coach Grant Thomas, who was sacked days later.
At the time, there existed an undeniable sense of opportunity lost. The club had risen under the svengali-like Thomas to reach the 2004 and 2005 preliminary finals but appeared to be falling again by the time of the early exit.

The Board had already made up it's mind to sack Thomas by the time of the EF, so the line "it was the end for coach Grant Thomas" is misleading.

And as for the comment that "The club had risen..............but appeared to be falling again".

Not one journalist or football commentator (or even SS poster) suggested anything of the sort at the end of 2006. The general view of the Saints at the time was that we had unfairly manipulated the draft system to assemble an absolutely magnificent list. We were seen by most journalists as being injury-plagued and poorly coached, but otherwise as potential premiership-winners.

Suggestions that the window had close started about half way through 2007, when it became clear that we weren't travelling so well under Lyon.

By contrast, the St Kilda team that defeated Collingwood in last Saturday night's semi-final contained seven players who had played fewer than 40 matches, only two of whom is older than 22.

I suspect that the 2005 PF team probably contained more than 5 players under the age of 22, and it also included a fair number who had played fewer than 40 games including Raph and Gwilt

The interesting thing about Lyon's era as opposed to GT is it has actually been more difficult for young players to get into the senior team. Players such as Eddy, Jones, McQualter, Gwilt, Raph have been hanging around the fringes of AFL selection for quite a while. Armo has played very few senior games for a top 10 draft pick from 2 years ago. Allen has likewise had few opportunities.

The reason for this is not mainly because RL favours experienced players over the less experienced (although, for a coach who is now being praised for his commitment to youth, his reign has coincided with the arrival of an absolute s@#tload of ageing, recycled players). It is argely because the club has a settled, experienced core of players mostly aged 22-27.

As the season has worn on, younger and fringe players have been getting a better crack at the top grade at our club because of prolonged or season-ending injuries to Gehrig and Maguire and, more recently, Ball and Dempster as well as serious loss of form on the part of players such as Fiora, Leigh Fisher and Gardi.

I think it is totally reasonable for Lyon to be praised for improving our defence, for having developed some players, and for recruiting several recycled players who have added something (particularly King, Birss and Dempster: I remain to be convinced about the rest, even Schneider).

But it's a bit of a giggle to see Lyon being praised for giving the young fellas a go.

Still living in the past??

Let it go.

[Saints43]

Doesn't the article he's commenting on start with the phrase "ST KILDA's loss to Melbourne in the 2006 second elimination final " ?

[saintsRrising]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

I'm not sure anyone would say it's the same list.

What many argue, including myself, is that the core talent that made us a top 4 side in 04-05 is pretty much the same.

They're just older, stronger, more mature and most importantly mentally tougher now.

Rubbish...

The core of that period is mainly gone....or fading fast.

Hamill and GTrain were both STARS then...true elite players in the AFL...

Jones was probably elite too....

Then there was the supporting cast in their prime...Powell, Thommo, Peckett, Voss etc...



What we have now is a largely a new core with some of the young guns better players adding on to Hayes...and a lot of new faces in the supporting cast.


I posted two years ago that one window (that based on the Blight attracted players merged with the 97 GF survivors) had closed....but that a new window (that based around our post 2000 draft picks etc) was about to open.

[saintsRrising]

I haven't done the math, but I recall reading in the Harvs tribute magazine his comment (which I'd noted previously looking acroos the numebrs) that after this year, with the retirements of Harvey and Gherig that our average age is going to go way down. .

Well with Banger 37 and GTrain almost 33....

If they were replaced on the list with say 18 year olds...that woul lower the average age of the list by about 10 months...say a year.

Now Gtrain is not in the 22...

So without Harves next year...the best will also be roughly a year younger (19 years divided by 22 players).

[meher baba]

[
Still living in the past??

Let it go.

Let what go exactly? Am I supposed to feel that, just because (contrary to earlier appearances) Lyon has now developed into a pretty good coach, that a whole lot of other nonsense is also suddenly true.

For me, Lyon was brought in to the club in 2006 to win a premiership asap with a playing list that the Board and much of the football world thought was on the verge of a premiership.

He didn't start too well, because he had his P plates on and because the team had so many injuries in his first season that, at times, he was choosing a team from around 23-24 fit players.

Under growing pressure this season, he was able to find his feet and turn thing around.

None of his teething problems as a coach had anything to do with the overall quality of our list (other than the fact that a lot of it was out with injury during 2007), and his success now is not due to any substantial changes to the list.

What Lyon has done lately has been to get the core of our GT-era list to get back to playing something like the football that we know they are capable of, with an added dimension of tighter defence.

It isn't perhaps as good a list as that of Geelong and might be marginally behind the lists of the Dogs and the Hawks (although I don't think so).

But to say, as Robert Walls wrote today from the perspective of his bizarre mancrush on our coach, that

Lyon and his assistants have instilled spirit and strategies into a list of players that, on talent alone, is not much better than ordinary.

(see http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/t ... 47382.html for the full article)

is just absolute bollocks IMO.

All but two of the key members of our current playing list - Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball (if he can get back), Sam Fisher, Blake, Milne, Harves, Lenny, Joey, Dal, Gram, BJ, Max - were well and truly part of the club in 2005, albeit that 3 of them (Kosi, Sam Fisher and Gram) had an injury-plagued season that year, and missed the finals. Also, three of the younger brigade who have stepped up - McQualter, Raph and Gwilt - were also at the club in 2005 and the latter two played in the PF against the Swans. Add to them Gilbert, who was drafted after the 2005 PF loss.

Three other key players in 2005 - Maguire, Baker and X - would also be automatic picks for our first team if fully fit. Fiora, who played in the 2005 PF, is still at the club, but has been overtaken by others and can't break into the top 22 (which is surely a bit of a sign of the depth of talent at the club these days).

The two newcomers who are playing crucial roles in the top team are King and Jones. Schneider, Eddy and Armitage have also contributed, but are hardly crucial.

As Stinger posted earlier in this thread, the team that took the field against Collingwood last weekend was arguably a better - and certainly a fitter - side than that which played against the Swans in 2005.

Believe it or not, our team has several superstars and a lot of first rate players. Because the team as a whole was playing a bit below par on odd occasions during 2006, for much of 2007 and for most of the first half of this season, the press has underestimated the amount of talent we have. Taken as a whole, our top group Riewoldt, Fisher, Hayes, Ball (when fully fit) and BJ - are, if fully fit, a powerful unit. And, although they fluctuate dramatically in their contributions from game to game, Kosi and Dal and Maguire (if he is ever fit again) would join them. Plus we have super veterans in Max and Harves and some underrated players like King, Milne, Joey and Blake, and some others - Gram, Raph, Gwilt, Gilbert and perhaps Schneider - who have been down for a while but who look like they are just hitting their straps again.

I don't care what anyone says, it's a good lineup. If you had put this list up against Geelong's, Footscray's and Hawthorn's in 2006 and asked which one would soon develop into the dominant force in the AFL, 9 out of 10 so-called footy experts would have chosen us.

We are where we ought to be now, and - if we win on Saturday - it will be to a significant extent because of the talent we recruited to the club with our excellent run of draft picks in 2000-03.

[meher baba]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

I'm not sure anyone would say it's the same list.

What many argue, including myself, is that the core talent that made us a top 4 side in 04-05 is pretty much the same.

They're just older, stronger, more mature and most importantly mentally tougher now.

Rubbish...

The core of that period is mainly gone....or fading fast.

Hamill and GTrain were both STARS then...true elite players in the AFL...

Jones was probably elite too....

Then there was the supporting cast in their prime...Powell, Thommo, Peckett, Voss etc...



What we have now is a largely a new core with some of the young guns better players adding on to Hayes...and a lot of new faces in the supporting cast.


I posted two years ago that one window (that based on the Blight attracted players merged with the 97 GF survivors) had closed....but that a new window (that based around our post 2000 draft picks etc) was about to open.

sRr, I just don't see how you can go on maintaining this line. See my post above.

Hamill was already injured to buggery in the 2005 PF, To the best of my recollection Peckett didn't even play in the 2005 finals.

Powell, Voss and Thommo were never stars in any way, shape or form: they were good club men. I don't think that, as a unit, these three - plus, say, Peckett and Guerra - can be seen greattly to outrate a similar list of good club men in Gram, Gilbert, Eddy, C Jones and McQualter.

We still won 14 out of 22 games in 2006 with Hamill still mostly injured, with Aussie Jones retired, with Gehrig in deteriorating form, with Lenny and Kosi out injured for much of the season and with promising players like Gwilt and Raph also out for long spells. Moreover, we had a horror draw: we had to play far more games interstate (and, unlike now, most of the interstate teams were serious contenders for the flag), and many of these had a 6 day break on either (or both) sides of them.

We had a good list then, we have a good - perhaps better - list now. Since half way through 2003, we have consistently had one of the 4 best lists in the comp. At the three points in that period in which we weren't decimated by injury - the first half of 2004, the run home in 2005 and the run home in 2008, we have looked a bit better still.

This is a fact. I really don't understand how you, or WJ 42, or any other poster who sticks fast to the "GT ruined our list" nonsense can't see this.

I've gotten over the idea that RL was a bad coach. It's only fair that you guys get over the idea that we have had a bad list at any time since, say, 2002.

[st.byron]

Hmmmmmmm... 6 players with under 30 games? Perhaps some posters are too quick to write off our young 'uns? And abuse players?

Anyone who still thinks this si the same list of 05 is a deluded IMO.

Anyone who believes that the next 3 to 5 years are a write off are also deluded IMO.

For once we appear to have proper player development strategies in place. Add some shrewd recruiting, and the future looks bright.

I haven't done the math, but I recall reading in the Harvs tribute magazine his comment (which I'd noted previously looking acroos the numebrs) that after this year, with the retirements of Harvey and Gherig that our average age is going to go way down. I don't know if his comment that we'll be one of the youngest lists in the AFL is correct, but I believe the only player that will leave on the grisly side of 30 will be Hudghton.

If we can refrain from this turning into another old coach v new coach that would be pleasant, but I will say this: we do appear to be turning far more of an eye to method in turning young kids into AFL footballers, and we appear to be in a position where the end upside is more important than the speed with which they reach it.

As you say, that's an opportunity for the recruiters, and without being able to guage the ability of recruitment under Lyon (too soon) they do appear to be aware of it with the bottom age picks from a year ago.

It's an approach that won't please those hankering for rising star nominations, but I find myself this week being cautiously optomistic far more than I have been in a while.

The current senior list has 40 players on it, including Goose and Fraser on the long term injury list.
Total age as at the start of this season = 967 years or 24.175 years average age.

If you take Fraser and Harves out and just leave the list of 38 players as is without any other delistings, then average age at the start of next season will be 24.6 years.

If you take out Ferg, Leigh Fish and just for my satisfaction Fiora, and replace them with three 18 year olds, then average age will come down to
23.99 years.

What's pleasing BAM, as you say, is that the younger kids actually seem to be developing and there seems to be some progression and sense of that being a deliberate strategy. Very pleasing to see.

[JeffDunne]

I don't understand the fascination football supporters have with getting younger.

[meher baba]

I don't understand the fascination football supporters have with getting younger.

Well, I would sure like to get younger: particularly with the full employment levels enjoyed by Gen Y, not to mention the very accommodating approach taken by many of the attractive young ladies.

[st.byron]

I don't understand the fascination football supporters have with getting younger.

Well, I would sure like to get younger: particularly with the full employment levels enjoyed by Gen Y, not to mention the very accommodating approach taken by many of the attractive young ladies.

not to mention knowing what you know now in a body that's 25 years younger.

[meher baba]

I don't understand the fascination football supporters have with getting younger.

Well, I would sure like to get younger: particularly with the full employment levels enjoyed by Gen Y, not to mention the very accommodating approach taken by many of the attractive young ladies.

not to mention knowing what you know now in a body that's 25 years younger.

Well, yes, although, as I see it, I wouldn't be placing any great demands on my brain as opposed, say, to certain other parts of my body.

[JeffDunne]

Ok, ok . . . my bad . . . you know what I meant.

[st.byron]

I don't understand the fascination football supporters have with getting younger.

Well, I would sure like to get younger: particularly with the full employment levels enjoyed by Gen Y, not to mention the very accommodating approach taken by many of the attractive young ladies.

not to mention knowing what you know now in a body that's 25 years younger.

Well, yes, although, as I see it, I wouldn't be placing any great demands on my brain as opposed, say, to certain other parts of my body.

exactly. Only enough blood to run one part at once, especially at 21.

[WayneJudson42]

[
Still living in the past??

Let it go.

Let what go exactly? Am I supposed to feel that, just because (contrary to earlier appearances) Lyon has now developed into a pretty good coach, that a whole lot of other nonsense is also suddenly true.

For me, Lyon was brought in to the club in 2006 to win a premiership asap with a playing list that the Board and much of the football world thought was on the verge of a premiership.

He didn't start too well, because he had his P plates on and because the team had so many injuries in his first season that, at times, he was choosing a team from around 23-24 fit players.

Under growing pressure this season, he was able to find his feet and turn thing around.

None of his teething problems as a coach had anything to do with the overall quality of our list (other than the fact that a lot of it was out with injury during 2007), and his success now is not due to any substantial changes to the list.

What Lyon has done lately has been to get the core of our GT-era list to get back to playing something like the football that we know they are capable of, with an added dimension of tighter defence.

It isn't perhaps as good a list as that of Geelong and might be marginally behind the lists of the Dogs and the Hawks (although I don't think so).

But to say, as Robert Walls wrote today from the perspective of his bizarre mancrush on our coach, that

Lyon and his assistants have instilled spirit and strategies into a list of players that, on talent alone, is not much better than ordinary.

(see http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/t ... 47382.html for the full article)

is just absolute bollocks IMO.

All but two of the key members of our current playing list - Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball (if he can get back), Sam Fisher, Blake, Milne, Harves, Lenny, Joey, Dal, Gram, BJ, Max - were well and truly part of the club in 2005, albeit that 3 of them (Kosi, Sam Fisher and Gram) had an injury-plagued season that year, and missed the finals. Also, three of the younger brigade who have stepped up - McQualter, Raph and Gwilt - were also at the club in 2005 and the latter two played in the PF against the Swans. Add to them Gilbert, who was drafted after the 2005 PF loss.

Three other key players in 2005 - Maguire, Baker and X - would also be automatic picks for our first team if fully fit. Fiora, who played in the 2005 PF, is still at the club, but has been overtaken by others and can't break into the top 22 (which is surely a bit of a sign of the depth of talent at the club these days).

The two newcomers who are playing crucial roles in the top team are King and Jones. Schneider, Eddy and Armitage have also contributed, but are hardly crucial.

As Stinger posted earlier in this thread, the team that took the field against Collingwood last weekend was arguably a better - and certainly a fitter - side than that which played against the Swans in 2005.

Believe it or not, our team has several superstars and a lot of first rate players. Because the team as a whole was playing a bit below par on odd occasions during 2006, for much of 2007 and for most of the first half of this season, the press has underestimated the amount of talent we have. Taken as a whole, our top group Riewoldt, Fisher, Hayes, Ball (when fully fit) and BJ - are, if fully fit, a powerful unit. And, although they fluctuate dramatically in their contributions from game to game, Kosi and Dal and Maguire (if he is ever fit again) would join them. Plus we have super veterans in Max and Harves and some underrated players like King, Milne, Joey and Blake, and some others - Gram, Raph, Gwilt, Gilbert and perhaps Schneider - who have been down for a while but who look like they are just hitting their straps again.

I don't care what anyone says, it's a good lineup. If you had put this list up against Geelong's, Footscray's and Hawthorn's in 2006 and asked which one would soon develop into the dominant force in the AFL, 9 out of 10 so-called footy experts would have chosen us.

We are where we ought to be now, and - if we win on Saturday - it will be to a significant extent because of the talent we recruited to the club with our excellent run of draft picks in 2000-03.

Let it go...

Saitns Rising summed it up nicely.

It is a different team than back in 05 & 06. With the 03 senior core well and truly gone.

We now have a a core of experienced players, development of our recruits from 2000 onwards, and new blood as well as mature recruits.

6 months ago, everyone was howling RL about players going backwards.

So he deserves credit for coaching a "backwards" team into a prelim, IMO.

If he gets canned for our losses, he deserves credit for our wins. Let's not be selective in our paraise. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

What you need to let go of is the "he was recruited to win us a flag" crap. If you honestly still believe this guff, and that we should have won last year, then you are naive at best.

It appears by your posts that you somehow feel decieved by the club in this respect.

Truth is that we were and would have stagnated under GT. And given how he was rumoured to be such an autocrat, I dare say that we would not have the fitness regime in place that we have today.

With injuries, GT would not have got us any further in 07 than RL did IMO.

RL was recruited to "take us to the next level" and things are falling into place.

[JeffDunne]

Falling would be a good word to describe it so far.

[WayneJudson42]

Falling would be a good word to describe it so far.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that there is method in the madness JD.

Total off-field rebuild for starters... now building a squad capable of executing the prefered gameplan.

Next level...JD.. next level.

[joffaboy]

Article vindicates what posters such as Mr Magic and SrR have been posting for months - ie that Ross lyon rescued a neglected list and has returned us to the top four by reinvigorating the list with savvy youth recruiting, canny use of the rookie list, and memorable trading of excellent and crucial players.

Article once agin hammers a nail into the coffin of the Ross Lyon haters who wanted to slate all the blame home to RL and completely disregard the repairs he had to make to a team and list run down by the previous football dept.

Lyon has proven to be a master coach and list manager. Has shown that he is the consumate professional by demarking tasks and duties to relevant responsible officers in the restructured football dept and shown to understand modern football by getting the best conditioners at the club and dramatically cutting our disgraceful soft tissue injuries.

Some people just cant let go to the fact that RL has proven them wrong, hopelessly and completely wrong. They smokescreen and deflect and pretend that Lyon was gifted the list where it is him that has developed it and after just under two seasons.

The article quoted shows it quite expressly.

Some posters here should retire gracefully. I mean their credibility is completely shot after thier unprecedented attacks on RL during the season. How they think ANYTHING, ANYTHING, they post about our club has any credibility is, well, beyond rationality.

Just let it go FFS. It is getting more and more embarrassing. [/list]

[Teflon]

What I find amusing about this thread is that the same old simpletons who either wanted Lyon sacked OR said hed taken us backwards...were only a few days ago on here blubbering on about how "sorry" and "wrong" they actually were....

I guess stupidity can only be masked for so long........we have some seriously deluded people running round in the back paddock on this thing....frightening really (and I hadnt gotten to St Kunny yet....)

BAMS contribution hit it spot on. It would seem Lyon is focussing on evolution and player development and refuses to give up on the Gwilts (who barely got a run under svengali and had stalled as a player...along with Ferguson....) and Raphs, Mqualters.....and dare I say even Milne (just remember svengali had him GAWN.....what a f@rkon master stroke that wouldve been..... (to be fair to svengali....Milnes possibly not your smooth, corporate type..... )

What I am also impressed with from Lyon (aprt from some shrewd trading year 1) is his ability to rebuild a midfield many said lacked depth and class - all of a sudden Goddards, Grams, Fishers start going through there and we are no longer so reliant on a 'fab 4' set up.

IMHO we have some way to go but with some additional shrewd drafting this year just maybe that "windows" letting in a draft...(theres a headline for ya....).

BTW - I thought Lyon comprehensively flogged Malthouse from the box last week......not bad for a guy sending us "backwards".