List issues - GT as "anti-Messiah"

[bob__71]

i can clearly remember GT saying "we've got enough kids" ...

yep. and he was wrong.

ADL total Rising star nominations:

16th: St Kilda

The prosecution rests.

So the prosecution rests on the fact that some young kids wernt able to force themselves into what was and still is a pretty strong lineup.

St Kilda people past and present lined up and shot because they didnt win a premiership. This is Lyons crime....Thomas crime....and any player who hasnt been a damn good player....swarze....raph...people argue from different perspectives.....but its always the same thing....blaming someone for not winning a premiership.

GT had a good crack left a good enough list that lyon in his second year of coaching has a top 4 team......and your all bitching because we havent got a premiership yet.....bloody joke really whatever side of the fence you look at it from a damn sad joke. (me included)

[WayneJudson42]

Aaah, there you go again. Just can't help yourself. Do you eat moron sandwhiches for lunch? Turn a reasonable discussion into an abusive one.
I'm starting to think you suffer from bi-polar disorder FFS.

Abusive???

What's GT got to do with it??

F***** hell, he's gone. Move on.


Or was that your frustration coming thru. Could be my bad.

[Con Gorozidis]

i can clearly remember GT saying "we've got enough kids" ...

yep. and he was wrong.

ADL total Rising star nominations:

16th: St Kilda

The prosecution rests.

So the prosecution rests on the fact that some young kids wernt able to force themselves into what was and still is a pretty strong lineup.

St Kilda people past and present lined up and shot because they didnt win a premiership. This is Lyons crime....Thomas crime....and any player who hasnt been a damn good player....swarze....raph...people argue from different perspectives.....but its always the same thing....blaming someone for not winning a premiership.

GT had a good crack left a good enough list that lyon in his second year of coaching has a top 4 team......and your all bitching because we havent got a premiership yet.....bloody joke really whatever side of the fence you look at it from a damn sad joke. (me included)

i never mentioned a premiership. just saying it would be nice if we had some more players in the 19-24 year category to be excited about.
5 years is a big chasm to fill list-wise. mind you - we arent alone. Kevin Sheedy left the Bombers in a big hole too. They have nothing between 21-27. And I know - noone has a perfect list.

Lets move on and hope we find some new kids in 2008. Hope springs eternal. Thats what footy is all about!

[Teflon]

All I do know is that I find flooding/back half footy is less exciting

It's also far less effective.

yes.....I often hear Paul Roos bemoaning the facts that HIS style of footy has been so unsuccesful....

such anill informed remark....or troll...take your pick.

[Teflon]

Which was the year that our injury list was so bad that the only player available against Collingwood and not picked was Houlihan? You know when the players had to introduce themselves to each other before the game?
Was it 2002/2003?
Anybody can make any statistic say whatever they want it to.
You could argue that some players got so many games because we had so many experienced players out through iunjury.

The whole argument is pointless. GT is not RL nad RL is not GT. They appear to have totally different philosophies on how to play, coach and train.

I'm really not sure that GT and Lyon have such different philosophies about coaching or list development.

I think Lyon has understandably lacked confidence and a sense of security in his first two seasons and this has led him to be more inclined to stick to his defensive gameplan and avoid taking too many risks, and also to show a bit of a bias towards hardworking, predictable and not particularly talented players such as Attard, Jones, McQualter, Dempster and Eddy.

I believe that we saw a somewhat more adventurous, attacking side of Lyon's approach to coaching emerge towards the end of the 2008 season. And he seemed to be the main promoter of the so-called "youth policy" which saw us go for the maximum number of draftees.

So I'm hoping to see Lyon engage in a bit of experimentation with lineups during 2009.

What this post conveniently ignores and which has already been pointed out in this thread is GT did his best work in his early draft years - why? he was gifted picks, including Goddard from Carlton.

Sadly when things got tougher in 2004/2005 have a look at our draft efforts - THE ONLY player we have as a genuine walk up start to our 22 from these years is Gilbert. Thats 2 complete years for 1 player. Thats a disgrace in anyones language.

What Grant Thomas did well was keep the list together. To do this we paid right on our salary cap limit - no problems from me here AS ALONG as you also have the ABILITY and CAP ROOM to select players who can bolster the bottom end of your list to complement your elite and take you to the next level. FACTS are Grant Thomas got us lots of high priced recruits, some gun players in early draft rounds and not enough "serviceable" players at the bottom end to make a difference (the Hamill 5 yr deal HAD to be the most stupid decision going round when all other clubs were abandoning these).

I wonder if Grant actually HAD the ability to snaffle (or see the need...) for a Dempster or even some serviceable players in Geary/Eddy off the rookie list to provide some support instead of Raymonds, Murrays, McGoughs, Stones, Brooks, Sweeneys, Fergusons et al where we may have actually gone. I am a firm believer that it is what you can draw from your bottom end that plays an enormous part in where you end up - you simply know what a Riewoldt is going to give you every week. Can you say the same for Gwilt?

I laugh at the above posts attempted backhander at Lyon for choosing "safe yet hardworking players" - did it ever occur to you babblelots that he knows his top 12 - 15 are as good as anyones and now he must introduce solid players to provide support ??- players like Dempster who are btw easily now in our best 22 and I think an absolute bargain get by Lyon.. as was Attard, doing great jobs before being crulled by injury? OR players like Stephen King to address (finally after failures under Thomas) St Kilda's laughing stock of the league ruck situation??

So far from what Ive seen Id easily back Lyons ability to:

1. Identify our list holes and recruit to fix them (see King/Dempster and now Ray)
2. Select solid footballers that can at least get on the park and hold their own

Remember Ross Lyon does not have the luxury of numerous top 10 picks - Lyon inherited a good list at the core with little depth beyond that and hes now trying to bolster it while still making prelims....his gig is a lot harder than Thomas' (who when he took over had a club that couldnt get any lower lets face it...)

Bottom line is we are certainly dry for talented youth and IMHO the 2004 and 2005 draft failures are biting - we now pray that Armitage/Stevens/McEvoys can quickly bridge the gap while our best is still in their prime and at the same time attempt to cobble together some depth.

Lyons job isnt an easy one but I suspect he handles the pressure well and is up to it - instead of constantly looking back in the rear view mirror at false demi gods....I'll back him.

I agree with much of this Teffers, but its such a shame that you have to demean your otherwise well-written thoughts with the mocking of people nicknames..you do it constantly and it just makes you come across as a smartass..but anyway..

I agree and you are correct 66 but after being labelled a smart @ss by another mod when putting an honest opinion up in another thread with NO mocking of nicknames.... I figure....if the shoes fit....wear em both all the time.

At least on topic in this thread we are in agreeance.

[Richter]

However, since then I have been heavy in my criticism of him. Reason being - we're not going any good! Simple. There's no sinsiter motive or 'agenda' behind it - we're just very average on the footy field!

Hmmm, I'm scratching my head.

Last season we won the pre-season cup and got to a PF.

That's as well as we've performed in a decade.

[Richter]

Name one young recruit that has flourished under Lyon's tutelage?

What's to suggest that any of our youngsters will come good?

What are we basing that thinking on?


Hope?

Improved under RL

Attard
Eddy
Sam Fisher
Sam Gilbert
Goddard
Clint Jones

Gone backwards

X Clarke

Similar level of performance to prior to RL

Luke Ball
Raph Clarke
Charlie Gardiner
Ferg
Sean Dempster
Gram
Gwilt
Howard
Armitage
Allen
McQualter
Schneider

[vacuous space]

How can you say that we couldnt have recruited those great picks Smith and Cahill without an improved budget.

I don't know for certain. We hadn't taken a Western Australian at the draft this decade. We'd taken two South Australians. In the 08 draft we took two South Australians and a Western Australian. I don't think it's a coincidence, but it might be.

We could have just asked you...

They could have. Great point.

[meher baba]

Name one young recruit that has flourished under Lyon's tutelage?

What's to suggest that any of our youngsters will come good?

What are we basing that thinking on?


Hope?

Improved under RL

Attard
Eddy
Sam Fisher
Sam Gilbert
Goddard
Clint Jones

Gone backwards

X Clarke

Similar level of performance to prior to RL

Luke Ball
Raph Clarke
Charlie Gardiner
Ferg
Sean Dempster
Gram
Gwilt
Howard
Armitage
Allen
McQualter
Schneider

I don't agree with much of this. IMO Lyon's biggest success story in terms of player development has been his decision to use Blake as a CHB, the result being that we have seen him play his best football ever in the second half of 2008.

I reckon that Raph, McQualter and Gwilt and, towards the end of the 2008 season, Armitage and Allen, were all showing signs of improvement as the direct result of the way Lyon was trying to use them. And I also think he has used Riewoldt a bit better and I'd probably agree with you about goddard as well.

I don't think Eddy and Jones have improved significantly in their play since we first saw them (ie, they weren't much good then, and still aren't much good), although both seem to have a bit more confidence. It's a bit of a giggle for you to put Attard on this list: we could say that he has improved out of sight (literally).

Gilbert improved a great deal during 2007 and then deteriorated significantly in 2008: I think the issues here are injuries and confidence, and not much to do with Lyon's coaching.

X had a great 2007, and was injured for much of 2008. It isn't fair to hold Lyon responsible for this, any more than you would for the relatively poor contributions from Maguire and M Gardiner.

But I do believe that several players have deteriorated markedly under Lyon and/or haven't been used by him in the most suitable ways

Leigh Fisher (used in the wrong positions, and then dropped)
Gram (probably mainly a problem with the player rather than the coach)
Schneider (a poor season in 2008 IMO)
Kosi (injuries are a problem, but I think it took Lyon a while to work out how to use him)
Sam Fisher (often matched up on less suitable opponents IMO, as has been Gilbert in 2008)
Baker (while he was still fit/not suspended during 2007, I thought Lyon didn't make full use of his ability to use the ball as well as operate as a tagger)
Ball - has played pretty well when fit, but Lyon hasn't done any better than GT in finding a way of keeping him from getting smashed by opponents and carried off the field

And, to go back to rodgerfox's original point, we can't yet point to a potential young star player whom Lyon has developed in any way (Armitage has not really come on yet, Jones isn't young, and Eddy does not look to me like a potential star player: although I hope I'm wrong about this).

But it's too early to say whether this is in any way a result of Lyon's approach to player development: young players develop at different speeds and/or struggle with injuries (eg, Allen). However, I think it would be reasonable for us to expect to see Armitage develop into a genuine AFL player in 2009 and for at least one more of the class of 2008 (McEvoy, Steven, Connors plus Geary) to join Eddy as at least an occasional first team player.

I'd be interested to see what others think.

[bob__71]

All I do know is that I find flooding/back half footy is less exciting

It's also far less effective.

yes.....I often hear Paul Roos bemoaning the facts that HIS style of footy has been so unsuccesful....

such anill informed remark....or troll...take your pick.

My original comment wasnt meant as a troll, I was just saying what my preference would be to watch, while waiting for a premiership. When we win one the means will have been worth the ends.

[Mr Magic]

All I do know is that I find flooding/back half footy is less exciting

It's also far less effective.

yes.....I often hear Paul Roos bemoaning the facts that HIS style of footy has been so unsuccesful....

such anill informed remark....or troll...take your pick.

My original comment wasnt meant as a troll, I was just saying what my preference would be to watch, while waiting for a premiership. When we win one the means will have been worth the ends.

I may be wrong but I don't think that Teflon's comment was directed towards you?

[rodgerfox]

I think the stats are pretty damning on this issue. I cant be bothered digging them all up. But our recruitment record in the past 5 years has been woeful.

Since BJ was recruited 6 years ago we have pretty much no young guys to show (Arguably only Gilbert).

If you want an indicator of this - look at rising star nominations in the past 5 years. We have the lowest number of all 16 clubs.

That is a disgrace that is not arguable. 6 years - no quality youngsters. I dare anyone to find me a club worse off in that regard during that period.

I think - putting all the mythology, sentiment and emotion aside - this is the stat that GT should be most ashamed of and is a legacy upon which he should be judged.

Do you think though, that any of the players we recruited instead of young draftees would have done enough in any of their games to warrant a Rising Star nomination?

Meaning, what's the difference between a 19yo playing one good game, and a 21yo playing one good game?

I genuinely fail to see how playing one good game and benig nominated for the Rising Star award equates to you being a quality player.

Winning it does, but being nominated??