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WayneJudson42 wrote:
So if that's the case, why do people get on here and whinge when we lose? And carry on that we'll never win a flag etc? As long as we "belong", who gives a stuff about winning a flag?
Winning a flag is not why I support a footy club.
If the club I support wins a flag, then it's great. However my support doesn't hinge on the success of the club.
To me, following a club has always been a tribal thing. The club isn't there to provide me with happiness. It's not there to entertain me.
I don't think I'm a better person because the club I support is successful, or think I'm less of a person because the club I support doesn't win a flag.
It's like a child or family member. You don't like them more or less pending their success. You're happy for them, and feel a sense of pride for them if they do well - but if they don't do well, you don't lose passion for them or like them less.
I pity those who need the Saints to win a flag in order for them feel better about themselves.
WayneJudson42 wrote:
So if that's the case, why do people get on here and whinge when we lose? And carry on that we'll never win a flag etc? As long as we "belong", who gives a stuff about winning a flag?
Winning a flag is not why I support a footy club.
If the club I support wins a flag, then it's great. However my support doesn't hinge on the success of the club.
To me, following a club has always been a tribal thing. The club isn't there to provide me with happiness. It's not there to entertain me.
I don't think I'm a better person because the club I support is successful, or think I'm less of a person because the club I support doesn't win a flag.
It's like a child or family member. You don't like them more or less pending their success. You're happy for them, and feel a sense of pride for them if they do well - but if they don't do well, you don't lose passion for them or like them less.
I pity those who need the Saints to win a flag in order for them feel better about themselves.
Who stated that we need a flag in order to feel better about themselves?
You're way off track on that one, old chum.
I honestly believe... rightly or wrongly... that the club(s) has evolved with the overall changing values in society.
It's a sign of the times, and it goes in cycles. The current gen wants instant gratification, hence the way the game and rules are constantly changing.
Like anything in life, you have to either embrace the change and make the most of it, or move on. I tend to look at the positive side of change.
And I definitely do not have a yearning to be hugged by the club.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
WayneJudson42 wrote:
And I definitely do not have a yearning to be hugged by the club.
I'd rather follow and support a club, than follow a flag.
It's interesting that you say that. What do you get out of supporting the club?
Do you follow a club because it makes you feel good when they win?
Do you follow the Saints because you think they are best option for you getting a flag?
Do you follow the Saints because you love footy and like to have a team to support?
If you don't have an emotional attachment to the club, why do you support the Saints?
I follow the Saints because my grandfather was on the committee. And because my dad wore the red, white and black. And because I've never known anything different than to be a Saints fan.
I feel I have more right to the club than guys like Archie Fraser, Matthew Drain and whoever else is down there at the moment. People who so flippantly decide that the supporters who have held this club afloat for 100 years can either 'put up or shut up'.
I don't follow the Saints to be entertained. I don't buy a membership because I get a discount next time I buy a door.
I don't buy a membership because it means I get into the games cheaper.
WayneJudson42 wrote:
And I definitely do not have a yearning to be hugged by the club.
I'd rather follow and support a club, than follow a flag.
It's interesting that you say that. What do you get out of supporting the club?
Do you follow a club because it makes you feel good when they win?
Do you follow the Saints because you think they are best option for you getting a flag?
Do you follow the Saints because you love footy and like to have a team to support?
If you don't have an emotional attachment to the club, why do you support the Saints?
I follow the Saints because my grandfather was on the committee. And because my dad wore the red, white and black. And because I've never known anything different than to be a Saints fan.
I feel I have more right to the club than guys like Archie Fraser, Matthew Drain and whoever else is down there at the moment. People who so flippantly decide that the supporters who have held this club afloat for 100 years can either 'put up or shut up'.
I don't follow the Saints to be entertained. I don't buy a membership because I get a discount next time I buy a door.
I don't buy a membership because it means I get into the games cheaper.
I follow the club coz I love footy. I follow the club coz I grew up in St Kilda, so it seemed logical at the time.
I follow the club coz, yes, I feel alligned to it and would enjoy seeing a flag. I follow the club coz we get emotionally attached to it.
I guess the difference between us is that the club holds a smaller role in my life than yours.
I go to watch my team win. And I buy a member ship to help the club... and in return, I get discount entery to games and access to finals tickets. In exchange for my $$ I do not feel the club owes me anything more, other than to perform on the field.
I was just as fanatical as you were once, but I grew up, got married, had kids and built a business. My priorities changed. Therefore I have become more disengaged. If our club folded, I must confess, I'd probably stop watching the footy.
TBH, over all my years as a member, the club hasn't treated me any differently. Every year they send me a reminder to renew, and every year they send me frickin raffle tickets. Nothing much has changed in 38 years IMO. For better or for worse.
I admire your passion and understand where you're coming from. If you feel that strongly, then write the club an open letter.
As stated, the very nature of clubs has changed due to the commercialisation of the National Comp.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
rodgerfox wrote:
I follow the Saints because my grandfather was on the committee. And because my dad wore the red, white and black. And because I've never known anything different than to be a Saints fan.
I feel I have more right to the club than guys like Archie Fraser, Matthew Drain and whoever else is down there at the moment. People who so flippantly decide that the supporters who have held this club afloat for 100 years can either 'put up or shut up'.
.
by that reckoning we would never have any new Saints; why can't a 'new' saint be just as passionate as an ' old' saint.
with Old saints passing on and their progeny being given free range to ' go for who ever you like ' ( but make it the saints )
how are we to increase membership if we only rely on genetics to gain them- we have never had huge numbers even in 1997 we only had 16,610.
Often it is 'new' members of any community who display the impetus to keep things growing----
to stay vibrant and enthused you need new blood to go along with the old--and in this corporate world- where aussie rules now is new ideas-- maybe being given more idea of the why's would help but although you may have had more idea due to family connection , on decisions with the club - many others would not have.
and as you admitted in your OP it's this enthusiasm, that you feel is fading.
me I'd like to see us get the Sons of blues and the sons and daughters of Pies and make them Saints,
born and bred St Kilda, even though I lived in Geelong
suppose it doesn't help when your father was named in the reserves for the Sts, was a died in the Wool St Kilda supporter,and you are really born into being a St Kilda supporter, suppose if I didn't like I could have changed , but I love my Sts
I think the problem with football clubs now is that it is all too commercial
too sanitised
to full of corporate speak
you no longer get to feel a part of the club like you used to
you can no longer run onto the ground and pat your players on the back after a good win
I feel like now we are just treated like numbers and revenue source
football teams are fast going the way of our modern-day cars
they all look pretty much the same, except for the badges
Last edited by sainteronline on Tue 06 Jan 2009 12:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
WayneJudson42 wrote:
I was just as fanatical as you were once, but I grew up, got married, had kids and built a business. My priorities changed. Therefore I have become more disengaged. If our club folded, I must confess, I'd probably stop watching the footy.
Seems we're far more on the same page than we both seem to think.
The fanatacism has ceased. Mainly for the same reasons you mentioned above. Infact almost identical reasons!
I rarely go these days, and aren't overly interested.
The difference is, that you seem to be more interested and able to merely 'follow' the footy without the fanatacism. I can't.
WayneJudson42 wrote:
I was just as fanatical as you were once, but I grew up, got married, had kids and built a business. My priorities changed. Therefore I have become more disengaged. If our club folded, I must confess, I'd probably stop watching the footy.
Seems we're far more on the same page than we both seem to think.
The fanatacism has ceased. Mainly for the same reasons you mentioned above. Infact almost identical reasons!
I rarely go these days, and aren't overly interested.
The difference is, that you seem to be more interested and able to merely 'follow' the footy without the fanatacism. I can't.
I'm either all in, or not in at all.
Don't get me wrong...
My mates and I had a standing joke that we got lucky with our partners when we won. Then came the '04 streak...
I guess I manage to put things into little comprtments in my life. I still get filthy when we lose, but it passes quicker than it used to. I think 97 was the proverbial Camel.
That's not to say that I won't end up in a watch house if we win the flag.
I genuinely feel the fanaticism has ceased becaused people's lifestyles have also changed. Our weekly routine is now far removed from where it was when we were kids. And it ain't ever going to return to where it was IMO.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
rodgerfox wrote:
Winning a flag is not why I support a footy club.
If the club I support wins a flag, then it's great. However my support doesn't hinge on the success of the club.
To me, following a club has always been a tribal thing. The club isn't there to provide me with happiness. It's not there to entertain me.
I don't think I'm a better person because the club I support is successful, or think I'm less of a person because the club I support doesn't win a flag.
It's like a child or family member. You don't like them more or less pending their success. You're happy for them, and feel a sense of pride for them if they do well - but if they don't do well, you don't lose passion for them or like them less.
I pity those who need the Saints to win a flag in order for them feel better about themselves.
This is a great post.
Unfortunately most people dont get the point of this thread.
Apparently I cant post on here because I am sounding like B4E, and others have selectively quoted portions of a post of mine and tried to equate that I blame Westaway and Frasier for the team playing boring football .
Apparently you are only a good supporter on these forums if you slavishly take whatever the club dishes up.
Whatever you do dont show your dissapointment at their ham fisted money grabbing at the expense of the tribal loyalty RF speaks about above. Whatever you do dont suggest that you are not as excited about the club on field as you were in 2004.
If you dont just blindly follow everything dished up by the STKFC you are not as true and as loyal as others
Well I dont care. I have stood in the rain for hours to watch the Saints capitulate at Morrabinn and other suburban grounds. For years I travelled long didtances to watch the Saints underperform at Waverley. I have donated money during SOS, have sponsored players (and will do so again this year) and have paid up annually for twenty years for a membership.
I have used days off to go to pre season training so i could give less fortunate Saints fans an idea of how the lads were going early doors. I sat through the horrible Timmid and Blight years and watched our young guns like riewoldt and Kosi and Ball get the s.hit kicked out of them as teenagers.
So dont flipping well try to allude that you are a "better" supporter than me just because you swallow every thing the claub does as "worthy" or in the "best interests of the club".
The club is losing its long time and tribal supporters. It is alienating the group who is the lifeblood of any club. It is doing so with the chase of the all mighty dollar at the expense of long time and loyal supporters.
The club AFAIAC is a disgrace and I will do the only thing a supporter can do - withdraw a significant proportion of the discretionary funds that i had earmarked for spending at the football.
Will it make a difference to the clubs finances? Probably not - I am sure there are plenty of drones willing to take it up the kazoo by the club to watch boring football for one less reserved game a year. You see it is not the point. I cannot in all concsious financially support a club that treats its supporters with such naked contempt.
Really - we dont matter anymore - only how much we can contribute financially to the club. Dont kid yourself that you are important. the club by its actions has shown you are not - only your $$$$ is important.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
The jumper is first and foremost the club. Who wears it and who sits on the side lines is secondary.
Secondly it is only natural that people's fantaticism come and go. I think to hold a fantaticism for too long is a little worrying. Lives change and so they should.
I remember a great line at the end of Fever Pitch when the main character says that even though Arsenal were still his great friend he did not have to go and see them every week to enjoy the friendship.
rodgerfox wrote:
Winning a flag is not why I support a footy club.
If the club I support wins a flag, then it's great. However my support doesn't hinge on the success of the club.
To me, following a club has always been a tribal thing. The club isn't there to provide me with happiness. It's not there to entertain me.
I don't think I'm a better person because the club I support is successful, or think I'm less of a person because the club I support doesn't win a flag.
It's like a child or family member. You don't like them more or less pending their success. You're happy for them, and feel a sense of pride for them if they do well - but if they don't do well, you don't lose passion for them or like them less.
I pity those who need the Saints to win a flag in order for them feel better about themselves.
This is a great post.
Unfortunately most people dont get the point of this thread.
Apparently I cant post on here because I am sounding like B4E, and others have selectively quoted portions of a post of mine and tried to equate that I blame Westaway and Frasier for the team playing boring football .
Apparently you are only a good supporter on these forums if you slavishly take whatever the club dishes up.
Whatever you do dont show your dissapointment at their ham fisted money grabbing at the expense of the tribal loyalty RF speaks about above. Whatever you do dont suggest that you are not as excited about the club on field as you were in 2004.
If you dont just blindly follow everything dished up by the STKFC you are not as true and as loyal as others
Well I dont care. I have stood in the rain for hours to watch the Saints capitulate at Morrabinn and other suburban grounds. For years I travelled long didtances to watch the Saints underperform at Waverley. I have donated money during SOS, have sponsored players (and will do so again this year) and have paid up annually for twenty years for a membership.
I have used days off to go to pre season training so i could give less fortunate Saints fans an idea of how the lads were going early doors. I sat through the horrible Timmid and Blight years and watched our young guns like riewoldt and Kosi and Ball get the s.hit kicked out of them as teenagers.
So dont flipping well try to allude that you are a "better" supporter than me just because you swallow every thing the claub does as "worthy" or in the "best interests of the club".
The club is losing its long time and tribal supporters. It is alienating the group who is the lifeblood of any club. It is doing so with the chase of the all mighty dollar at the expense of long time and loyal supporters.
The club AFAIAC is a disgrace and I will do the only thing a supporter can do - withdraw a significant proportion of the discretionary funds that i had earmarked for spending at the football.
Will it make a difference to the clubs finances? Probably not - I am sure there are plenty of drones willing to take it up the kazoo by the club to watch boring football for one less reserved game a year. You see it is not the point. I cannot in all concsious financially support a club that treats its supporters with such naked contempt.
Really - we dont matter anymore - only how much we can contribute financially to the club. Dont kid yourself that you are important. the club by its actions has shown you are not - only your $$$$ is important.
Never thought I was important to the club in all 38 years to be honest.
Never said I swallow everything the club dishes up, either. Once again, in order to defend your position, you put words in people's mouths and talk down to them. How old are you again?
Like I keep repeating adnauseum...
If you all feel agrieved, go tell the people at the club. I mean, if you care so much, do something constructive rather than dummy spit.
Lighten up Pencilhead.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
As one of our more senior and respected posters, savatage, would once say...I'm a bit from column a), a bit from column b) on this one.
I love the Saints. As much as ever. I'm here as often as I can be and keep in touch with those at the club to see what's going on.
But there are parts of the club that I am not happy with.
WJ42 asked in an earlier post what the club could do more of to be in touch with the 'heartland'.
It may have been symbolic, but the integration of 'good St Kilda people' into the club under the early days of RB/GT was unmistakable. They wanted to embrace the history of the club as well as set a sucessful course for the future.
Now I am not a GT/RB worshipper - I am a St Kilda fan. But I appreciate many of the good things they did, and I see no reason why we can't adopt many of their philosophies.
I liked the way that when Shane Warne was kicked out of cricket for a year, the first bloke on the phone was GT, inviting him to come back to the club to get involved. I like that Allan Jeans was invited back to the club to take a training session. Now both, celebrities or not, are Saints man and it was a sign that the club cared about its own.
Another ex-player, Rod Owen (correct me if I'm wrong), was in all sorts of strife. But RB stepped in to give a hand. It was kind of like the club had stopped trying to 'shed' itself of its past; it wanted to embrace St Kilda - the good and bad - and show that it would not affect our future success.
I liked that the club actively invited supporters to training. They offered them BBQs and giveaway and made the players accessible to the fans. They encouraged you to hang about in the social club afterwards.
I liked how the Social Club post-match operated in the Victory Room, even if I preferred the Social Club of Moorabbin and Waverley. Now I really, really couldn't be stuffed going in there. It just feels like money-making vehicle for the club.
I miss that I can't get my Social Club walk-up tickets on level one and sit with the different groups of mates I have in there. However, while the club didn't hesitate to dump that group, I do accept that our increased popularity as a football club has perhaps let to the abolition of that area.
I don't understand why the club didn't move heaven and earth from the start to back the Moorabbin Wing. Instead, they were initially cagey and somewhat suspicious, as were TD managment. Things are better now, but only because the fans kept chipping away.
As supporters, we used to get honest, open and direct feedback from Brian Waldron. Now we seem to be fed an overwhelming glut of half-truths and misguided snippets of information.
The club was once the media's best friend. We became open, honest and we had what seemed like three years of excessively positive media coverage. How good does it feel to open the paper and see a good story about the Saints? Conversely, how disappointing is it to open the paper and see something negative? When the chips were 'up', it felt like we were a club on the go and things were happening - a great way to invite sponsors and new members into the club.
I don't like that the new administration has abandoned Moorabbin. When you listen to their arguments, it can pretty much be traced back to the fact that personal squabbles (on both sides, not just ours). We should never have let this happen. Now the fans are being cheated out of a link with the homeland, and instead have been given a facility so far away that nobody can get too. Worse than that, they've told us how lucky we are - what do they think we are, stupid?
I don't like how the club has handled our ticketing changes. See Joffaboy's posts for further information.
I don't like that the club overlooked Ben Cousins (not to drag it up, but hear me out). I think, more than anything, they feared a member/sponsor backlash that was never going to come. I think the proof is in the pudding; Richmond's member/sponsor figures are going gangbusters and we could have had that too, but the club wasn't in touch with the majority of supporters, who - quite frankly - took it for granted that he was coming.
===
I don't think you can blame the club for Ross Lyon's choice of players or playing style. However, that he has an OTT defensive style does contribute to the notion we are an uninspired and boring team.
I'm not sure who is to 'blame' for all of this, if it is a matter of blame.
I was - and continue to be - a big believer in the Footy First team. They came along at the right time and came with the promise we needed.
However, sometimes it's the little things that count - and the above is mostly a collection of those. They are the things that make you feel like you belong. That St Kilda is more than just a collection of individuals; that we are a club, in every sense of the word, and that we - as supporters - feel it.
We give a lot of time, money and emotion to our club. It's daily for me, and I imagine, many others. But I want more than just 11 home matches. I want the club to be really a club. I want this to feel like it is my club, not just a group of professionals seeking their next pay cheque.
As it stands, it's not hard to feel disconnected from the footy club right now. And that's not a good thing, particuarly after we've just come off a preliminary final.
And I'm no less of a supporter because I feel this way. Do I embrace change? No - I embrace the right change. Not to pull GT up again, but why did so many embrace his change? Becuase it was the righ change.
Change, for changes sake, is not good. This club must strive to be the best it can on the field - that makes us all happy - but it must never forget that while success, and players, come and go, the fans are here.
And if you treat them right, they'll be here forever, as will the generations after.
Last edited by evertonfc on Tue 06 Jan 2009 2:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
joffaboy wrote:Unfortunately most people dont get the point of this thread.
There's a point? So a couple of you aren't interested at the moment, is there something the rest of us desparately need to 'get'?
I'm no tribal supporter - I come from a family of Sandgropers who followed North until the Weagles came along - and I'm no fanatic, but I'm not upset by the current management, playing style or pre-season jumper.
I hope you guys get back into the swing of it soon, but please stop telling us to get some mystical point.
degruch wrote:
I'm no tribal supporter - I come from a family of Sandgropers who followed North until the Weagles came along - and I'm no fanatic, but I'm not upset by the current management, playing style or pre-season jumper.
There's nothing wrong with wanting the club to be the best that it can be.
Let's put an open letter to the club, then anyone who agrees can copy it and email Archie baby.
Send me your grievances and I'll draft it for you.
Fair enough?
They all come on here and they all post or read reguarly.
If they're in touch with the fans, they'll read it and take notice.
If not, you would have to question how much they cared.
Well, sadly... here's where I give up.
I thought your post was very well written and I tend to agree with most of it. But...
Here's a golden opp to make a contructive statement to the club, and that's the best you can come up with?
Sorry mate, but you squibbed it IMO.
Open message to all posters:
If you ain't happy, get off your backsides and tell the club. Otherwise, stop complaining.
What?
Read what I wrote. They read this site. All of them. Everyone on the board; everyone in the administration.
They should be taking notice.
Enough said - without the need for a petty letter that will be disregarded.
Why would it be petty? If so many are upset?
Soft option IMO. Yes the club should be aware, but sometimes people need a kick up the butt.
You say you embrace good change... I prefer to make good change happen by being pro-active.
EDIT: I'm not defending the club. MAybe you should read what I post.
I'm not as emotionally attached to it as some. The point I'm making is that if people are so p1ssed off, then they should take it up with the club and get them to listen, FFS. Is it that hard to understand? Or do you prefer to put words into my mouth all the time?
Mate, get real. On this thread there's only a handful who have agreed with you and Rodge. If there is more, then they should become more vocal about it.
If you want to play the victim and blame the club, that's your choice. Remember that being a victim will always render you powerless to initiate change.
I've just stated that I understand and respect your point of view, and would support fellow members and supporters take their complaints to the club.
What more do you want?
If you choose not to participate, then stop complaining and sharing your misery. Be accountable FFS.
Last edited by WayneJudson42 on Tue 06 Jan 2009 3:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Just caught up with the remainder of this post since my return to Melbourne...and it makes for an interesting read. I must confess that I skimmed most of the posts - unless the first few lines caught my attention....so with that disclaimer in place..
..there have been very few (if any) suggestions about what the club could do differently to bring back the passion some of you speak of...(see disclaimer above)
Lots of talk about how badly treated supporters are and how things aren't like they used to be...but nothing about what the club can do better.
Yes the club is different - it has to be.
Yes the club is more "corporate" (whatever that means) - it has to be
Maybe we are treated like customers instead of members - but in today's game that's what we are.
Yes the club packages memberships and charges in ways that don't please everybody - this is just a fact of life when trying to cater for 30,000 members AND make money.
Rather than complaints how about some suggestions?
Not that it matters but for me it's about the jumper. If someone is deemed good enough to wear it then I'll support him. I will criticise when necessary but on game day I will support him. The board - we voted for them. We asked them to run our club for us - so if we don't like it, we only have ourselves to blame.
Rodger - I understand exactly what you are saying and before you tell me that I am missing the point I still think you need to find the thing that reignites your passion. It's not up to the club to create it. It never has been. It's always been up to us. So if the passion isn't there for us then we need to look at ourselves first.
WayneJudson42 wrote:You say you embrace good change... I prefer to make good change happen by being pro-active.
Yep - and we've posted our thoughts here, which is by far the best best way to get the club to recognise we're unhappy.
Given the club monitors this site very closely - as already stated - and given they claim to be in touch with the supporters, don't you reckon they might show the foresight and good will to act on the feelings of their members?
Or are they so out-of-touch that they need a shredder-bound letter?
fingers wrote:..there have been very few (if any) suggestions about what the club could do differently to bring back the passion some of you speak of...(see disclaimer above)
Lucky you put in a disclaimer, fingers!
Check out my long-ish post on this page, which details some examples of where I feel the club has erred/ignored supporters/hurt the feeling of community, etc.
A lot of them are small things, but small things often add up.
And the ONLY reason we're piping up is because we want this club to be the best that it can be.
Last edited by evertonfc on Tue 06 Jan 2009 3:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
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