Club or Entertainment?

[degruch]

Well, you had respect for RB, so I thought I'd raise you in the ridiculous stakes with a 'poor Archie'.

Did I?

Comparitively

[rodgerfox]

Well, you had respect for RB, so I thought I'd raise you in the ridiculous stakes with a 'poor Archie'.

Did I?

Comparitively

Without going off topic - you're wrong. I didn't say anything at all about respecting Rod Butterss.

I simply said I believe he cared about the club, and had it interests at heart - not his own. Then I said, that changed.

[degruch]

Well, you had respect for RB, so I thought I'd raise you in the ridiculous stakes with a 'poor Archie'.

Did I?

Comparitively

Without going off topic - you're wrong. I didn't say anything at all about respecting Rod Butterss.

I simply said I believe he cared about the club, and had it interests at heart - not his own. Then I said, that changed.

You did...sorry. I agree with you to a point re: RB too...although I always thought he looked like an insencere git.

Right off the topic, I and mini-degruch are now paid-up members (I wanted the Saints teddy bear for myself really...also wonder if the Saints birth certificate can legally replace to one we were forced to purchase from the government). SO, I'll be looking for passion now that I have something to tear up!

[WayneJudson42]

Sounds like your beef is with AFL manipulation, double standards and 'corruption'...send Dimwit a letter about it, poor Archie has to deal with his screwed up league.

Absolutely I have a 'beef' with the AFL.

In my view, they've turned a very enjoyable sport into one that I can no longer sit through.

As for 'poor Archie', why would he care? He still gets paid if we win, lose or draw.

If we win, lose or draw as per the AFL's planning, he'd probably even get paid more and/or guarantee himself a job when he leave the Saints.

'Poor Archie'! Give me a break.

So did every other CEO before Archie. So why is he the villain?

TBH, Degruch raises an interesting point about previous admins...

When you go back and look at their behaviour and the bad decisions made, then IMO that shows as much contempt towards the supporters than anything you pu tup in this thread.

Why? Because those poor decisions constantly led to instability and poor onfield results.

[rodgerfox]

So did every other CEO before Archie.

I don't think they did at all.

[joffaboy]

I would argue the club did give you a choice and you chose it. You had the choice to take up the new package at an additional cost - which many may have the finances to afford to do so - or review your own finances and take a lower grade of membership - you chose the lower grade of membership.

If you actually read my post I stated the new package was not going to cost me an extra cent.

Yes I agree you are passionate - but you can't argue that any of those who are taking up the option as being less passionate, or less loyal.

Where did i say that? I think you are very confused about the issue. I have a problem with the fact that the STKFC rabble under Westaway and Frasier forced this on every single reserved seat holder on L2. Not one bit of notice, just pay up or F*** off, you are not welcomed.

It could be argued - they have listened to a section of passionate Stkilda suppporters who want such a package, and are prepared to pay the $$$ to get it.

Please give me details of where this was published. The only thing published was that the Corp Dinners were no longer going on and then L2 reserved holders got hit with $125 more for one game less.

yes I can see all those members saying please make us pay $125 a year more for one game less

Bad news for average punters or families who can't afford it anymore (I would be included in that category) but good news for those who can and are prepared to pay for it. - but to argue that you are more loyal and passionate than they are doesn't stack up.

Where in hell do you get this fanciful idea that i think I am more passionate than any other supporter??? the only person I accused of having no passion for the club is the suit Frasier. All he is conncerned about is ripping off the members who he thinks are drones and will put up with anything.

As for families. Well 50% of crowds are made up of women, a huge % over any other football. I would argue that many families come, father, mother, and kids. A reserved seat guarantees that the family can sit together and get to the game when they chose, they are also safer and less bad language and drunks on L2 - but all you can say is bad luck - family of four (for example) already struggling to make ends meet, who aready pay $2000 for 11 games, pay $600 more next season for one game less.

Yup the cash grab is great for the heart and soul and fabric of whom make up a large majority of football supporters - women and children

For an example - you cannot argue that Lindsay Fox isn't as loyal or passionate about the StKilda football club than yourself - the only point of difference is, he is prepared to pay extra $$$ to get the best seats in the house if he desired to do so.

In Fox's case I could say that. he went over to Carlton for a while. But that the type of supporter you would welcome. The type that changes alligence but has money????

Thank you for proving my point.

[evertonfc]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

[rodgerfox]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

A very, very good post.

[markp]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

Spot on.... and it wouldn't really take that much.

I was dumbfounded a couple of years back when I got that crap chinese sweatshop pen in the mail.... how much better would it be to get a letter from the club (or coach) inviting you down to the intra-club game with a voucher for a free freaking sausage in bread or something?

How bout if they'd just told us Luke Ball wasn't going to play (you think Clarkson didn't know?).... would we have lost by any more?

Or if they mailed out a very simple monthly news letter during the season dealing with issues and progress....

There's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water, or try to re-invent the wheel.

They could even just pretend....

[degruch]

They could even just pretend....

You mean...gasp...lie???

[terry smith rules]

some of you guys need to watch the Seinfeld episode when the "yankees terrorist" aka Jerry asks that all members be rung when the game is called off

how about this for a membership incentive. .. your team makes the grand final and you get first choice of a ticket

isn't that the biggest incentive and rest is just fluff

[tweedaletomanning]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

A very, very good post.

Ditto!!

[markp]

some of you guys need to watch the Seinfeld episode when the "yankees terrorist" aka Jerry asks that all members be rung when the game is called off

how about this for a membership incentive. .. your team makes the grand final and you get first choice of a ticket

isn't that the biggest incentive and rest is just fluff

If you only supported the Saints so as to enjoy a flag, or only joined for first choice gf tickets, you're getting a pretty bleak return.

No one is asking for Roo to come around and wash their car..... although....

[Banger2Plugger]

I would argue the club did give you a choice and you chose it. You had the choice to take up the new package at an additional cost - which many may have the finances to afford to do so - or review your own finances and take a lower grade of membership - you chose the lower grade of membership.

If you actually read my post I stated the new package was not going to cost me an extra cent.

*OK.

Yes I agree you are passionate - but you can't argue that any of those who are taking up the option as being less passionate, or less loyal.

Where did i say that? I think you are very confused about the issue. I have a problem with the fact that the STKFC rabble under Westaway and Frasier forced this on every single reserved seat holder on L2. Not one bit of notice, just pay up or F*** off, you are not welcomed.

*I saw it as pay up, we have others who are prepared to pay more - there are cheaper areas to sit in if you can't afford it BUT the lack of consultation to existing seat holders was their downfall.

It could be argued - they have listened to a section of passionate Stkilda suppporters who want such a package, and are prepared to pay the $$$ to get it.

Please give me details of where this was published. The only thing published was that the Corp Dinners were no longer going on and then L2 reserved holders got hit with $125 more for one game less.

yes I can see all those members saying please make us pay $125 a year more for one game less

*Milton Friedman suggests that there are always those who are prepared to pay more for a product if there is a demand for it - supply versus demand.

Bad news for average punters or families who can't afford it anymore (I would be included in that category) but good news for those who can and are prepared to pay for it. - but to argue that you are more loyal and passionate than they are doesn't stack up.

Where in hell do you get this fanciful idea that i think I am more passionate than any other supporter??? the only person I accused of having no passion for the club is the suit Frasier. All he is conncerned about is ripping off the members who he thinks are drones and will put up with anything.

*To single out Frasier is unfair - he is the CEO, but the memberships would have been approved by the entire board.

As for families. Well 50% of crowds are made up of women, a huge % over any other football. I would argue that many families come, father, mother, and kids. A reserved seat guarantees that the family can sit together and get to the game when they chose, they are also safer and less bad language and drunks on L2 - but all you can say is bad luck - family of four (for example) already struggling to make ends meet, who aready pay $2000 for 11 games, pay $600 more next season for one game less.

*Hey I am one of those struggling families who could only dream of sitting on Level 2 with a reserve seat. I pay our memberships, our social clubs, and fight tooth and nail to get a spot on level 3, or if we are lucky on Level 1 - I do understand the club has to do what is required to maximise its revenues. There are only so many seats the club has access to package and sell to members on Level 2.

Yup the cash grab is great for the heart and soul and fabric of whom make up a large majority of football supporters - women and children

*Cash grab is for Level 2 seating - plenty of women and children are sitting on Level 1 and 3 also - so should we increase the cost of the memberships on Level 1 and 3 instead?

For an example - you cannot argue that Lindsay Fox isn't as loyal or passionate about the StKilda football club than yourself - the only point of difference is, he is prepared to pay extra $$$ to get the best seats in the house if he desired to do so.

In Fox's case I could say that. he went over to Carlton for a while. But that the type of supporter you would welcome. The type that changes alligence but has money????

*I was unware of any move to Carlton - other than perhaps a sponsorship of the club decided upon by the board of Linfox - or personally assisting his friend and fellow Harvard Business Course attendee Dick Pratt / how much Pratt may have assistant Fox at times when he was Chairman of the Saints I am not privy to.

Thank you for proving my point.

*I think the point you have proven - that I agree with - is the lack of respect shown to Level 2 reserve seat holders by not advising them by letter prior to memberships renewals, that the board had changed the membership structure for Level 2, and maybe a reason why.

[PJ]

I put to you Rodger it may be a personality issue you have with the current admin, coaches etc.

There is nothing I can remember from Rod or Grant to suggest they were more committed than Greg & Ross.

Personalities Rodger just personalities. Some are good at media speak some less so.

[ctqs]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

Summed up brilliantly. The club doesn't exist for any other reason than we care about it. Players, coaches, administrators all chop and change for one reason or another. We were there long beforehand, and will be there long after to clean up the mess and start all over again. I don't think those in charge truly understand that. Or if they do, they exploit it.

[Solar]

Can somebody explain to me why football can't be both entertaining to the neutral observer but also stay true to its roots?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the cold, wet and windy days in the outer. But they are gone - and we all accept this.

I'm more than happy for the club to play at the Dome and have a sponsor on the shirt. I get it. In fact, I want the club to make lots of money and become financially viable forever more.

However, I see no reason as to why this should come at the expense of generating a club feel.

I listed a myriad of other reasons in another thread as to how this has happened. The club seems to be out of touch with the supporters.

They seem to treat us with contempt for 11 months a year and then come banging in the off-season, asking us if we've still got the 'passion' to fork out hundreds or thousands of dollars.

The bottom line for me is this. I want the club to make money, but I feel like I get very little for my money. I don't want a crappy keyring, but I do want the club to beam interstate matches at Moorabbin. I don't want Saintscentral that much, but I do want Archie Fraser telling me the truth.

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

Summed up brilliantly. The club doesn't exist for any other reason than we care about it. Players, coaches, administrators all chop and change for one reason or another. We were there long beforehand, and will be there long after to clean up the mess and start all over again. I don't think those in charge truly understand that. Or if they do, they exploit it.

two great posts and in the interests of developing this great club I suggest the mods go into the locked thread, clean it up and we can get onto discussing how to get the discourse between club and member to an exceptable level....

[degruch]

I think there's enough relevant points here...why bother resurrecting the previous slanging match? Unless some mod has three days to read it all???

Personally, I think there's some extreme over-analisation going on here...some punters should just divorce themselves from politics and enjoy their footy. Surely it can't be that hard???

[Teflon]

Personally, I think there's some extreme over-anal-isation going on here...some punters should just divorce themselves from politics and enjoy their footy. Surely it can't be that hard???

Im with you Gruch. This whole thread has a sense of "step into my orifice" about it.

I can understand the nervousness bout where we are placed at present - particularly on field as there IS a gap between what's coming through.....and whats top line NOW and how quickly we bridge that and how we do this is going to be fascinating to watch in 09. Im personally hoping we dont become a "good old middle of the road Nth Melbourne....always therabouts but never really there.....but with 1 or 2 super players.." if you know what I mean.

To me for the past 5-6 years as supporters we've all had the excitement/expectation/media hype...that St Kilda was THE side with THE talent that was just gonna take the comp by the scruff any moment.........we haven't in "Premiership" language ofcourse. This excitement stemmed from the drafting of some super talent,some good off field success/profits and for once...St Kilda was envied by Essendons, Carltons, Collingwoods et al - we were the "up and coming side" (and didnt Bomber Thompson hate that back then...)

Today thats Carlton/Richmond. Hawthorn flew past us as has Geelong after a stumble. We have to deal with that - some supporters are clearly struggling....

We aren't the new "sexy" team anymore.....maybe that FINALLY kills the dreaded "best potential list cr@p".....and is that such a bad thing?

Maybe THATS the message this playing group needs to understand - "signing off" in GT/marketing speak about "creating your own destiny" is lovely while your being lauded as the "potentially anything list".

Achieving that and the ultimate flag requires something far more real as a TEAM.

I laugh when I hear Geelong supporters tell me now what a superstar Cam Mooney suddenly is......did he grow an extra leg after 2006?........or could it be the REAL transformation down at Geelong after they failed to make finals came as a GROUP.....and when that happens it pulls many along in tbe slip stream? (Mooneys a good player....never been a superstar IMO). Des Headland as a Brisbane Lion could perhaps also atest to that...

Gonna be an interesting year for team/coach/supporter.

[WayneJudson42]

Personally, I think there's some extreme over-anal-isation going on here...some punters should just divorce themselves from politics and enjoy their footy. Surely it can't be that hard???

Im with you Gruch. This whole thread has a sense of "step into my orifice" about it.

I can understand the nervousness bout where we are placed at present - particularly on field as there IS a gap between what's coming through.....and whats top line NOW and how quickly we bridge that and how we do this is going to be fascinating to watch in 09. Im personally hoping we dont become a "good old middle of the road Nth Melbourne....always therabouts but never really there.....but with 1 or 2 super players.." if you know what I mean.

To me for the past 5-6 years as supporters we've all had the excitement/expectation/media hype...that St Kilda was THE side with THE talent that was just gonna take the comp by the scruff any moment.........we haven't in "Premiership" language ofcourse. This excitement stemmed from the drafting of some super talent,some good off field success/profits and for once...St Kilda was envied by Essendons, Carltons, Collingwoods et al - we were the "up and coming side" (and didnt Bomber Thompson hate that back then...)

Today thats Carlton/Richmond. Hawthorn flew past us as has Geelong after a stumble. We have to deal with that - some supporters are clearly struggling....

We aren't the new "sexy" team anymore.....maybe that FINALLY kills the dreaded "best potential list cr@p".....and is that such a bad thing?

Maybe THATS the message this playing group needs to understand - "signing off" in GT/marketing speak about "creating your own destiny" is lovely while your being lauded as the "potentially anything list".

Achieving that and the ultimate flag requires something far more real as a TEAM.

I laugh when I hear Geelong supporters tell me now what a superstar Cam Mooney suddenly is......did he grow an extra leg after 2006?........or could it be the REAL transformation down at Geelong after they failed to make finals came as a GROUP.....and when that happens it pulls many along in tbe slip stream? (Mooneys a good player....never been a superstar IMO). Des Headland as a Brisbane Lion could perhaps also atest to that...

Gonna be an interesting year for team/coach/supporter.

Ask Geelong players and they'll tell you that the improvement was player driven, via their leadership program.

For all the hoo ha, Michael Voss was right in his article, which I suspect Brett would have given him some insights.

Dal and Milne were dropped for not doing the "team" things. Hopefully we've weeded out a few more players who weren't prepared to do the "team" thing every week.

If this means that RL turns players into "robots" as some have accused him, the I'll take that. Because from discipline, comes trust, and from trust, comes confidence. Which is EXACTLY what Cats and Hawks have got in spades.

[degruch]

Personally, I think there's some extreme over-anal-isation going on here...some punters should just divorce themselves from politics and enjoy their footy. Surely it can't be that hard???

Im with you Gruch. This whole thread has a sense of "step into my orifice" about it.

I'm glad you agree with my arse-esment.

[kaos theory]

I haven't got involved in this post (until now), because its mostly a big whine.

People are looking back at the hype & excitement from 03 to 05, when we had youth and high expectations. But the facts are, for a variety of reasons, we missed our best chance at a flag in 04 & 05. And since then, the excitement seems to have gone.


Now people are interpreting that lack of excitement, involvement, passion, etc. as something that have been due to some administratively driven change to 'corporatise' the club. My answer to that is:

BULLSH!T.

If our on field play was exciting & attacking like the cats, or we had a raft of exciting young players coming through and were hot favourites for the flag, then none of this whining would be going on, irrespective of how the admin was running the club or communicating with the supporters.

Its simple: if a team is stagnating or on a downward spiral, then the club doesn't seem to have the 'passion' or 'identity' it once had. If a club is on the rise, then the place has a 'buzz' about it, and its seems to be exciting & inclusive.

Here is a news flash for those whining: We are in a highly competitive league, and we are a middle to low ranked club in terms of size (finance, supporters, etc.), and we work through a restrictive drafting system.

Therefore, we will NOT always have the funds to have the best training facilities, the best recruiting, and will not always get the best draft selections, therefore we cannot rationally expect to be a hive of excitement with exciting young star players signed up every year, and a serious flag contender year in year out.

The admin has to do the best it can with have resources, assets and restrictions it faces.

To my eye, this current admin has had one year in power and has done a very good job so far. Our biggest weaknesses (player conditioning & recruiting) have been addressed. They have secured a new training base, which was the best option from a limited set of options. And this year, I believe we will see a change in the style of our play (with greater emphasis on the quality & run through the midfield).

Based on these improvements, we are probably a good shot at a flag through the 09 to 11, with the current crop and new players coming through now. Beyond that, who knows.

The point is, we began going backwards in 2006, as other clubs, with more money, infrastructure and better draft picks began to overtake us. We are now attempting to do the best we can to overcome our limitations.

Thats it.

But instead we get this sort of whinging (sorry evertonfc):

I want the feeling that I'm supporting a club, not a franchise.

The club should be reaching out to its members. But sadly I fear we are not members to them, but customers.

That's a horrible way to look at it if you ask me. If you treat members well, you'll get repeat membership. And then you'll sign their sons and daughters. And then a couple of mates, too.

Why? Because they want to be a part of the club, too. But right now, I'd have a terrible time selling the benefits of the being a member to Saints fan.

I've been a member for over 20 years, and the club has never done as much for the supporters in the old days as it does today.

[PJ]

Thanks Kaos couldn't have said it better.

[markp]

Why is it whinging to identify areas that may need addressing to improve the Club?

Of course if we were flying these things would grate less... that's human nature, and applies in every walk of life from business to sport to politics to personal relationships.

Maybe part of the problem is that the most visible member of the Club seems to be our CEO....

[evertonfc]

Why is it whinging to identify areas that may need addressing to improve the Club?

Absolutely. Perfectly said.

We're only saying this because we want the club to be the best it can be. I have a 1000 better things to do than complain about the club. I'd much rather be falling over myself to give praise.

And people who think it's just because we're playing worse, didn't we just finish 4th? So it's hardly connected to that.

I made a list of reasons in the other thread that were to do with things that I wasn't happy with - the way so many agreed with such sentiments indicates there's more the club could be doing.

And given how tough the exisiting market is to find and retain members, doesn't it make sense for the club to be doing everything in their power?

That's all. Not a whinge. Just a suggestion.

We want the club to be the best it can be - and sometimes you have to speak up. It's the little things that add up.

Anyway, I think that's about it for now. The club knows some people aren't happy. Equally, they know no matter how they treat some supporters, they'll always sign up. I guess (screw it - I know) I'll always sign up, but I still don't want my loyalty taken for granted.

Let's see what happens...