Bill Davoren must go

[Con Gorozidis]

Our head of fitness simply must go.
He is not suited to the job and must be sent back to Female Triathlon where he belongs.
I have become utterly convinced of this.
This is not a witch or looking for someone to scapegoat or blame for 2013.
But I have been seriously concerned about how our side looked and performed in contested ball, collisions, marking contests and tackling since i saw us run out in the opening NAB cup.
Now After years of success coaching female triathletes Davioren saw an opportunity to make some money by swtiching to AFL. Fair enough. This is no vendetta.
He arrived at very good mature Bulldogs list and they did well in 2009. Probably despite him. But he then catalysed the rapid demise of their list and rapid fall to mediocrity non competitiveness and outside running bruise free footy.
The dogs soon looked thin and frail like school boys. In 2011 they conceded they were in a rebuild. In 2012 they finished 15th. They were easy beats.
In 2013 he arrives at the Saints who whilst on the decline had surprised many with their feisty competitive footy in 2012.
In one summer he put his stamp or 'limprimatur' (sic) on his new side.
By February it was clear the Saints were gaunt frail and thin.
They were playing outside bruise free footy. We had become soft in the contest after four months of summer running.
They couldnt stand up in a tackle and they didnt hit hard.
They were easily knocked aside.
In fact like the Bulldogs of 2011 and 2012 the Saints were starting to play like female triathletes.
Sure we had some outside run. Maybe even some fitness. But we were not equipped to deal with the collisions wrestles and hand to hand combat of footy.

Please wake up.
He turned the Dogs into a bunch of female triathletes and now we are letting him do the same to us.

Thats what he knows so thats what he will do.
This has been a huge mistake.

[noob]

His the bloke that looked after the doggies massive second half fade-outs in 2012. Reminds me of St.Kilda.. Starting off well then falling away.

[plugger66]

Con I reckon people on here would have less idea about the fitness coach than any single other person at the club. Im sure the clun will do the right thing and use all the data to work out if he is the right person or not.

[HitTheBoundary]

In their current review they're looking at all the important markers; inside 50's, defensive acts, tackles, smothers, clangers, hit outs to advantage, and bench pressing.
Davoren may be in trouble.

[plugger66]

In their current review they're looking at all the important markers; inside 50's, defensive acts, tackles, smothers, clangers, hit outs to advantage, and bench pressing.
Davoren may be in trouble.

Obviously.

[supersaints]

Agree Con. Made similar comments about him and the dogs and us in a previous post
Fadeouts.............

[Junction Oval]

As supporters, we may not "know" much about him, but we can "see" the results. Agree with Supersaints about our fadeouts.

I know that we have a young side and it takes time to build, but the stature/bulk of the bodies of the Hawks, Freo and Geelong players is what we need.

[BringBackMadDog]

2nd half fadeouts are so common amongst sides that are low down on the ladder. Its because in the first half when both sides are fresh the side with less ability work their arses off to stay in the contest but once they tire, ability takes over and the better side walks away with it. For those of us who are old enough to remember the bad old days in the 80's, every week we would be within 4 goals at half time only to lose by crap loads by the end of the match.
Lets not hang the fitness coach just yet

[Con Gorozidis]

I aint hanging him yet but hes on notice if he thinks hes going to turn a bunch of hardened footy plauers into emma snowsills running around.

I am a skeptical hippo on this bloke <insert sceptical hippo>

Pluggs im sure the club will look at as do all clubs but someone must have the est fitness staff someone must have tje middle and someone the worst. So clearly not all clubs can be the doing the best amd right thing.
Someone ia making a mistake and i fret in this regard its us

[Con Gorozidis]

I aint hanging him yet but hes on notice if he thinks hes going to turn a bunch of hardened footy players into emma snowsills running around.

I am a skeptical hippo on this bloke <insert sceptical hippo>

Pluggs im sure the club will look at as do all clubs but someone must have the est fitness staff someone must have tje middle and someone the worst. So clearly not all clubs can be the doing the best and right thing.
Someone is making a mistake and i fret in this regard its us.... Remember hes only been with us for 2013. And were weaklings.

Maybe the answer is we keep him but the head coach guves strict instructions that we are prepared to sacrifice some run for some grunt . Get an assistand who works us harder in the gym. Heck bring back G Train and get him some quals.
But we are on the wrong path and we look like a bunch of triathletes. Not footy players.
He screwed the dogs pretty fast.

[Con Gorozidis]

And watching that grand final - 80 % of it was a wrestling match in the clinches trying to win ball from a rolling maul.
Guys like stephen hill were useless but strong guys like fyfe mundy and lewis were the important ball winners.

[HitTheBoundary]

So Con, in another discussion thread you said that one of the players allegedly can't bench press what you arbitrarily decide is not enough weight.

From this, seemingly, you leap to a whole thread on sacking the fitness coach.
I'm assuming this is just a fans point of view, or do you have some personal qualifications in physio/high performance training of athletes that backs up your statements?

I'm just trying to work out what you're basing up your argument on.

[Con Gorozidis]

So Con, in another discussion thread you said that one of the players allegedly can't bench press what you arbitrarily decide is not enough weight.

From this, seemingly, you leap to a whole thread on sacking the fitness coach.
I'm assuming this is just a fans point of view, or do you have some personal qualifications in physio/high performance training of athletes that backs up your statements?

I'm just trying to work out what you're basing up your argument on.

1 its not arbitrary. Its against well known afl and nrl benchmarks.
2. I dont believe womens triathlon training is appropriate for footy
3. Look at the results at bulldogs and us. Quickly transformed hard teams into soft skinny outside teams.
4. Look at port when they got their fitness guy back from Liverpool or whatever it was
5. Ok the Bombers cheated but they improved a lot when the weapon got them stronger
6. The evidence is there to be seen weekly. We play bruise footy. We cant win a contest when the heat goes up a notch. Teams enjoy playing us. We are out muscled and bustled all season.
7. We are third bottom.
8. We dropped a fair bit 2012 to 13 so doesnt look great for him does it ?
9. Dogs were also poor in 11 and 12.

Serious flags need to be raised on this guy.

[HitTheBoundary]

So Con, in another discussion thread you said that one of the players allegedly can't bench press what you arbitrarily decide is not enough weight.

From this, seemingly, you leap to a whole thread on sacking the fitness coach.
I'm assuming this is just a fans point of view, or do you have some personal qualifications in physio/high performance training of athletes that backs up your statements?

I'm just trying to work out what you're basing up your argument on.

1 its not arbitrary. Its against well known afl and nrl benchmarks.
2. I dont believe womens triathlon training is appropriate for footy
3. Look at the results at bulldogs and us. Quickly transformed hard teams into soft skinny outside teams.
4. Look at port when they got their fitness guy back from Liverpool or whatever it was
5. Ok the Bombers cheated but they improved a lot when the weapon got them stronger
6. The evidence is there to be seen weekly. We play bruise footy. We cant win a contest when the heat goes up a notch. Teams enjoy playing us. We are out muscled and bustled all season.
7. We are third bottom.
8. We dropped a fair bit 2012 to 13 so doesnt look great for him does it ?
9. Dogs were also poor in 11 and 12.

Serious flags need to be raised on this guy.

Okay, so it's all just personal opinion. Thanks for clarifying.
By the way, I don't disagree that players need to be strong in the contest, but seeing this guy has only been there for one (?) preseason I think it's hard to judge.
What about Tom Lee? He seemed to increase in size considerably?

[BringBackMadDog]

Con, Davoren is not responsible for strength training at the club is he is responsible for aerobic capacity training. His work around altitude training and developing elite athletes is world class which in todays game is ultra important and with the reduced rotations next year even more important. We have a separate strength and conditioning specialist (Josh Low) who is responsible for developing strength in the group.

[Con Gorozidis]

Con, Davoren is not responsible for strength training at the club is he is responsible for aerobic capacity training. His work around altitude training and developing elite athletes is world class which in todays game is ultra important and with the reduced rotations next year even more important. We have a separate strength and conditioning specialist (Josh Low) who is responsible for developing strength in the group.

Thanks for the update mad dog.
I reckon we have the balance wrong then between these roles and the workload balances.
These two guys need to get their heads together and have a review
Seems like davorens program has taken over too much to me.
Seems like we do lots of aerobic and then just maintenance and conditioning with low.
Needs to be back to 50 50.
I never once doubted Davoren is good at what he does. But I have serious doubts about whether what he does is entirely correct for a footy club and footy players. Thats my concern.

[HitTheBoundary]

We have a separate strength and conditioning specialist (Josh Low) who is responsible for developing strength in the group.

We need to change the title. JOSH LOW must go.

Thanks for the good info.

[gringo]

I think it has more to do with turning over 20 players in 2 years with a bulk of them in their first couple of years at AFL level. My mates nephew who played for the Pies said the training you are thrown into in your first year makes you feel incapable of doing anything but training and sleeping because they hammer you. If that's the case a full game on top of that would be pretty taxing. These guys are still growing mostly so they are really feeling it by about round 10 and that was about where we started to get less competitive. Not someones fault just where we are at.

[gringo]

So Con, in another discussion thread you said that one of the players allegedly can't bench press what you arbitrarily decide is not enough weight.

From this, seemingly, you leap to a whole thread on sacking the fitness coach.
I'm assuming this is just a fans point of view, or do you have some personal qualifications in physio/high performance training of athletes that backs up your statements?

I'm just trying to work out what you're basing up your argument on.

1 its not arbitrary. Its against well known afl and nrl benchmarks.
2. I dont believe womens triathlon training is appropriate for footy
3. Look at the results at bulldogs and us. Quickly transformed hard teams into soft skinny outside teams.
4. Look at port when they got their fitness guy back from Liverpool or whatever it was
5. Ok the Bombers cheated but they improved a lot when the weapon got them stronger
6. The evidence is there to be seen weekly. We play bruise footy. We cant win a contest when the heat goes up a notch. Teams enjoy playing us. We are out muscled and bustled all season.
7. We are third bottom.
8. We dropped a fair bit 2012 to 13 so doesnt look great for him does it ?
9. Dogs were also poor in 11 and 12.

Serious flags need to be raised on this guy.

Bulldogs were in about the same position we are with a bulk of new kids coming through after a long successful era challenging for finals.

[Con Gorozidis]

Davoren is the head .
He is the architect of bruise free outside running muscle free foity sides with no grunts.
If thats what we want to be known for then lets keep doing what we did last year.
Its no accident we ran all over Freo when they were in contact free mode.
We compete fine when the game is an outside free flowing running game.
As soon as it becomes tight and close we get monstored.
Thats who we are and how we play.
Davoren is the architect of weak bodies.

[gringo]

Davoren is the head .
He is the architect of bruise free outside running muscle free foity sides with no grunts.
If thats what we want to be known for then lets keep doing what we did last year.
Its no accident we ran all over Freo when they were in contact free mode.
We compete fine when the game is an outside free flowing running game.
As soon as it becomes tight and close we get monstored.
Thats who we are and how we play.
Davoren is the architect of weak bodies.

melbourne has done well since they stole our man. They couldn't even get improvement with peptides.

[Con Gorozidis]

Davoren is the head .
He is the architect of bruise free outside running muscle free foity sides with no grunts.
If thats what we want to be known for then lets keep doing what we did last year.
Its no accident we ran all over Freo when they were in contact free mode.
We compete fine when the game is an outside free flowing running game.
As soon as it becomes tight and close we get monstored.
Thats who we are and how we play.
Davoren is the architect of weak bodies.

melbourne has done well since they stole our man. They couldn't even get improvement with peptides.

Relevance?

Bookmark this page because if we do the same thing this summer as we did last summer we will go backwards even more.
I get jack of people saying stuff like 'world class'.
World class at female triathlon? Yes. Relevance to Aussie rules? Not much. Appropriate body shape for Aussie rules? No. Performance of Bulldogs - NOT world class - in fact biggest/quickest drop off in the AFL.

If you want to go and watch an outside running side next year that runs the wings and gets smashed and monstered in the contest - be my guest. IF we stick with this guys 2012/13 summer program Ill guarantee we WILL be bottom next year.

The best thing that happened to Tom Lee was doing his achilles so he couldn't do Davoren's program and had to go and train with Low fulltime - Same goes for Gilbo.

[Con Gorozidis]

So Con, in another discussion thread you said that one of the players allegedly can't bench press what you arbitrarily decide is not enough weight.

From this, seemingly, you leap to a whole thread on sacking the fitness coach.
I'm assuming this is just a fans point of view, or do you have some personal qualifications in physio/high performance training of athletes that backs up your statements?

I'm just trying to work out what you're basing up your argument on.

1 its not arbitrary. Its against well known afl and nrl benchmarks.
2. I dont believe womens triathlon training is appropriate for footy
3. Look at the results at bulldogs and us. Quickly transformed hard teams into soft skinny outside teams.
4. Look at port when they got their fitness guy back from Liverpool or whatever it was
5. Ok the Bombers cheated but they improved a lot when the weapon got them stronger
6. The evidence is there to be seen weekly. We play bruise footy. We cant win a contest when the heat goes up a notch. Teams enjoy playing us. We are out muscled and bustled all season.
7. We are third bottom.
8. We dropped a fair bit 2012 to 13 so doesnt look great for him does it ?
9. Dogs were also poor in 11 and 12.

Serious flags need to be raised on this guy.

Bulldogs were in about the same position we are with a bulk of new kids coming through after a long successful era challenging for finals.

Convenient to explain away in hindsight isnt it?
1. Bulldogs demise was quicker and more sudden than anyone expected. Only after they fell off did they state they were in a rebuild (like us)
2. They started playing outside contact free footy and got monstered. Sides enjoyed playing them.
3. Our drop off from 2010-11-12 was gradual. After Davoren's first summer program - we dropped off dramatically.
4. We cannot compete in contested body to body situations. We are an outside team of flankers. Teams enjoy playing us.

Dont take my word for it.
Go and watch Bulldogs in 2012 and us in 2013. Actually watch some footy.
Can any of you tell me we are up to the the AFL benchmark on contested situations and strength and body contact?
Does anyone truly think we are up to the mark on this compared with other teams?

[Con Gorozidis]

This is your choice saints fans

Ollie Wines


or Emma Snowsill



Sure Emma would smash Ollie in triathlon - But I know who I think will win more games of footy.

[Dr Spaceman]

This is your choice saints fans

Con, you seem quite obsessed with this stuff.

I don't know what's going on at the club in this area and dare I say neither do you. But regardless of that, how is it the choice of us Saints fans?