Again on the Ruckman

[BigMart]

Yes, them again?!

I am interested in their effectiveness??

I compared them recently on hit out/HO to adv performance and around the ground effectiveness as compared to each other...

Of course my pals had a field day trying to prove me wrong or even ridicule, never did mind you... But thought they did? But?

I especially liked the one where they brought different positional players into it in a vein attempt, even though I clearly stated it was a crude measurement of Ruckman vs Ruckman comparison wrt output. Although there was still an argument the system still held up in most cases?!

Anyway I digress....

My initial point

Every game on the weekend so far

The team with the most hit out (total) and hit outs (adv)
Lost the game


I think It's the most overrated stat in footy... And unless you have a non competitive Ruckman... The winning of the taps is almost irrelevant?!

[saintspremiers]

So what's your point? Have no Ruckman? Or just a tall midfielder who can jump and average 20 possies a game???

Might be worth deleting the first two thirds of your OP as it doesn't really achieve anything

[Cairnsman]

So what's your point? Have no Ruckman? Or just a tall midfielder who can jump and average 20 possies a game???

Might be worth deleting the first two thirds of your OP as it doesn't really achieve anything

Yeah the first two thirds were interesting tidbits.

Hey BM have you read the proposed rule changes, looks like there is going to be a new rule specially designed for you, (They are calling it the BM quotation rule).

Better start practice using the quote button, and just in case you don't know where it is it's up on the right hand corner of each post.

[Milne]

We were found out under GT without a ruckman. Having good ruckmen matters.

[BigMart]

Interesting SP

Point was clear in the end... Surely when I indicated that hit outs were overrated.

But also stated the obvious... Unless you are non competitive in that area?

So a midfielder taking ball ups - I would say no

A tall such as Carlisle who took apart Warnock around the ground this year... Maybe?

I am from the GT school of thinking on this.... I cannot see the value of a Ruckman who as soon as the ball up is finished... Is useless!!
I rate Ruckman who are good footballers... Not ruckmen who are tall or can jump. They need to be able to win their own footy.

The first part of my post related to the contradiction argument about Ben McEvoy
Of course he became a worse player when he left but to argue he was useless because of his inability to win tap outs
And then to claim Hickey a better player.... Who was beaten 86-50 in the first two games didn't make sense to me??


I think hickey played well too...
Beat Spencer
Broke even with Mumford... A good effort

But statistically in the ruck was mauled.... The very argument that was used against MacEvoy?

My belief is...
In comparison to around the ground effectiveness... Tap work is at best secondary at best
Two contested marks in my eyes is worth 10 hit outs or more... Especially since only 20% on average go to adv.

[creepypolar]

Dude, you've gotta work on those question marks.....

[FQF]

Dude, you've gotta work on those question marks.....

Actually needs to work on his English writing skills. They used to be fine, but have become significantly worse, to the point where certain "sentences" are incomprehensible.

[Cairnsman]

Dude, you've gotta work on those question marks.....

Actually needs to work on his English writing skills. They used to be fine, but have become significantly worse, to the point where certain "sentences" are incomprehensible.

I think the rules committee is looking to change the rules to make his posting style more appealing.

[maverick]

I also think its better to have midfielders that can play v midfielders that can't and also forwards that can play v forwards that can't.
Not sure about backman

[bergholt]

I also think its better to have midfielders that can play v midfielders that can't and also forwards that can play v forwards that can't.
Not sure about backman

Good point. We could write 25 lines proving that good players are better to have than bad players but I think you've summed it up nicely.

[gringo]

All i know is if we had snaggled Dean Cox under GT we might have done a bit better in the trophy department. Clarke Keating, Ottens etc. made a massive difference.

[saintspremiers]

I also think its better to have midfielders that can play v midfielders that can't and also forwards that can play v forwards that can't.
Not sure about backman

You need one top defender and plenty of forwards and midfielders that can drop back and defend quickly.

[BigMart]

Mmm...

Very typical from the usuals....

Got nothing on the topic worth adding, but had to add something?!

What could be better than a completely irrelevant, cheap shot of a personal nature... All in the comfort of anonymity...
FFS
Spelling, grammar, writing style... Being the point of a post/reply on a fan forum?!
Was not aware we were being judged on literacy? I suppose all footy commentators like Richo and Lloydy or coaches like the Scott bros are literary giants....

I consider those things in this forum, as much as I do in a text msg!!!

Here's a thing to consider
A football opinion

[BigMart]

Mmm...

Very typical from the usuals....

Got nothing on the topic worth adding, but had to add something?!

What could be better than a completely irrelevant, cheap shot of a personal nature... All in the comfort of anonymity...
FFS
Spelling, grammar, writing style... Being the point of a post/reply on a fan forum?!
Was not aware we were being judged on literacy? I suppose all footy commentators like Richo and Lloydy or coaches like the Scott bros are literary giants....

I consider those things in this forum, as much as I do in a text msg!!!

Here's a thing to consider
A football opinion

[bergholt]

Your opinion is right yet almost trivial. Is anyone seriously arguing that hitouts are the only way to judge a ruckman?

[FQF]

BM, I don't know why you would consider me a "usual." I definitely do not have any agendas and will weigh up your opinions, and anyone else's, on their merits. I've frequently agreed with you, and disagreed with you.

But it is extremely frustrating when you write in a style that is very difficult to understand. The only means of communication that we have on a forum is written language, so while it is not the point of the forum, and it does not require a literary giant, it would help if you just stuck to simply constructed sentences with conventional grammar usage.

[BigMart]

Only to prove how s*** Ben McEvoy was and is?!

Of course irrelevant now we need to support our group.

Me
They account for 1/3 of a stoppage success if you win the tap...

We had a very solid tap Ruckman with good hit out stats under GT
He was a poor footballer which was costly

[spert]

We were found out under GT without a ruckman. Having good ruckmen matters.

Agree- and if we had both our ruckmen in the '97 GF, we would have had a lot better chance of winning, as the Crows rucks dominated

[whiskers3614]

On an ABC scale I would currently rate Ben as a B-,
Longer and Hickey C plus.
Given the difference in age and experience they may both surpass him (or fade into oblivion).
Pretty sure our ruck stocks alone will not determine the future!

[happy feet]

BM, a big mobile ruck man is essential in any team, to hit out to advantage and to be a big bodied player around the ground. Mobility is a must and being a bit of an enforcer type as well. Answer this question, were we a better team with Michael Gardiner in form? Answer another one, Dean Cox wants to come to the Saints, would you say yes?

I answer yes to both questions, but then I am an old ruck man, so I'm biased.

[wally]

I've often wondered whether Barry Brookes may have made a go of it if he had a coach who rated ruckmen.
I think tap outs to clearance is the only real stat.
I thought in the BLions game we got the tap to our blokes but they were unable to get clear and go forward.
Back in the Lions premiership years Leigh Matthews instructed his ruckmen to just bash it forward and his players to run onto the ball
to break the congestion.This may sound dumb but should we be trying this abit.

[samoht]

My belief is...
In comparison to around the ground effectiveness... Tap work is at best secondary at best
Two contested marks in my eyes is worth 10 hit outs or more... Especially since only 20% on average go to adv.

I agree - contested marks and around the ground effectiveness of the ruckman is much more important than hitouts. But the ruckmen still need to be competitive in the ruck - to at least negate his opponent.

re: hitouts only 20% on average as you say may go to advantage - and probably about 15% on average go to disadvantage! .. but this stat is never shown.
for instance --
This weekend...
One Mcevoy hitout to disadvantage happened near Sydney's goal - and it went straight to a Sydney player who slotted through an easy goal. No matter how many hitouts to advantage McEvoy achieved for the match, nothing would make up for that mistake.
I also noticed Jamar do the same thing on the weekend - he gifted an easy goal to the Bulldogs.

The embarassing and potentially damning hitout to disadvantage stat is long, long overdue!

[BigMart]

Michael Gardiner at StK was ver overrated, but he was a fair player

I think he finished 13th in the B&F in 09 and a bit less the following year?

Cox of course, he would improve any team... He's in the best 10 players since 2000.

You have named two very good footballers... Neither would be as good a tap Ruckman as Robbie Warnock
Would Rob Warnock make us much better

I rate Ruckman who can play, as highly as I rate any positional player.... No better or worse?!

FQF
Come on man, if you are so troubled as not to understand a post... Don't bother reading/replying to it?!
I will write my posts very quickly, without a draft, without a grammar and spell check and often without too much intellect spent....
I am not writing thesis, Essays or indeed looking to be published...

I am passing time

[BigMart]

On 97

Shaun Rehn dominated because he was a much better footballer than Brett Cook.... Cook was possibly the 21st best StK player.... Rehn in the top 6 Adelaide players..... Spider would of been are far stronger opponent, as he was a good player

Was that crucial because of the position.... Not really, but because of the huge difference in ability between the two, giving Adelaide a dominating playier. If it was a Dominant HBF vs a insipid HFF it would have also 'killed us' .... And actually, that happened and he won a medal...

Vidovic was at best a GOP and unless he knocked Rehn out, he would have also been well beaten.

[happy feet]

Big mart, I'm not sure what planet you are on. Michael Gardiner was instrumental in our success in the two grand final years. Me thinks you have never played the game, and so your knowledge is shallow.