Jason Holmes - what are his match day instructions?

[Dave McNamara]

From the 'Rucking Issues" thread...

In terms of development...

3/ Holmes

Progressing well and is the personality profile to improve if given game time. Should have taken 2 relatively easy marks yesterday one in the forward line and one in the defensive goal square but didn't seem to have the confidence/awareness or understanding of instruction to take his chances just yet...
posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1531637&si ... #pr1531637

Excellent point IMHO, PJ!

Just what are Jason's instructions?

I ask, coz he seems to concentrate solely on making sure he gets to every ruck contest around the ground.

This is at the expense of presenting himself as a target.

I saw it in the VFL final for Sandy at Victoria Park, and saw it again about half way into the third quarter on Saturday. Tommy Curren had the ball from a mark, wide/just forward of the wing. Jason was running towards our forward line... not to contest a possible pack mark at CHF, as he wouldn't have made it, but (seemingly) to be in the vicinity so he would be able to make it to any ensuing stoppage ruck contest.

Freeze the replay at 17:49 when Tommy marks it, then freeze again at 17:54 when his pass is punched clear of Longer... and have a look at where Jason is. He was in a prime and dangerous position... and all on his own(!) All he had to do was stop, turn around and call for the footy.
http://www.saints.com.au/video/2015-03- ... -saints-q3

What's the problem with that...?

The problem I reckon is... we had the ball wide on the wing, Jason was running through the middle of the ground, just just forward of centre. What's also wrong with that is that because Jason didn't present, Tom C kicked down the line to Longer, whose opponent was close enough to spoil the ball over the line.

I've just spotted another one... a bit less blatant, but all the same...
also in the 3rd Qtr (16:34) as Sam F takes his free for out on the full. No one is marking Jason, but he's (seemingly) purely concentrating on getting to our half forward line... but again, not in time for a marking contest.

This is why I'm wondering what Jason's instructions are(?) Are they to learn to 'read the play' to the extent that allows him to always be able to make it to a ruck contest? Has he been given any licence to run off and present himself as an option?

I'm a big fan of Jason's. I reckon he's already a very good AFL standard tap ruckman. The next step for him is to present himself as an option around the ground, and so, really give his opposing ruckmen something to think about. So, I'm just wondering what his instructions are in this area of the game?

Thoughts Saintsationalists... especially from those of you who've seen Jason play far more than I have.

tony, if you're reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion.




PS: Apologies for starting a fourth Jason Holmes thread, but I'm really interested to hear people's thoughts, and didn't want this post getting lost in the ruck. (Ha ha. )

[Joe Bloggs]

You should take up scrabble Dave and write about that , it would be more interesting .

[Dave McNamara]

You should take up scrabble Dave and write about that , it would be more interesting .

Hi Joe. Well, clearly you have resisted being 'hypnotised'.

Thanks for your input and suggestion. however, though I can generally spot dodgy spelling, I'm not always so confident as to what the correction should be... thank gawd for the auto spellcheck. Hence, I'll leave Scrabble to SS's resident expert, the Gazrat.


Now back on topic. Since this is a forum for those of us who do find the machinations of the mighty Saintas to be of interest... JB, do you have an opinion on what big Jason's match day instructions could/should be?

[WinnersOnly]

I dont think it is his instructions Dave it is football nouse and having the confidence to go for his marks and calling for the ball. He also has to gain his team mates confidence which will come in time.

[WinnersOnly]

I dont think it is his instructions Dave it is football nouse and having the confidence to go for his marks and calling for the ball. He also has to gain his team mates confidence which will come in time.

[damienc]

I think you make some interesting points and observations on Holmes.

But I think in his defence he is still learning the game of Australian Rules Football.

He has certainly travelled a huge distance in a short time in terms of development which is great for him and the St Kilda football club.

I like the way he presents at every rucking contest. He is an extremely big unit and if he can master the skills needed at an elite level then he will be a ripper.

But, clearly he is still on a steep learning curve. But I firmly believe the more footy he plays the better he will get. We need to be patient with young Jason but there is a significant payoff IMO if we are.

So all good.

[saint6709]

I think you make some interesting points and observations on Holmes.

But I think in his defence he is still learning the game of Australian Rules Football.

He has certainly travelled a huge distance in a short time in terms of development which is great for him and the St Kilda football club.

I like the way he presents at every rucking contest. He is an extremely big unit and if he can master the skills needed at an elite level then he will be a ripper.

But, clearly he is still on a steep learning curve. But I firmly believe the more footy he plays the better he will get. We need to be patient with young Jason but there is a significant payoff IMO if we are.

So all good.

Mostly we learn from mistakes - this guys seems to really want to improve and I think the more chances he gets the better he will become - no doubt he will analyse the footage of his own play and the coaches will talk him through things to change and improve - eg the punch he should've marked in the back line - they might say something like - " that was yours to mark Jason - next time just grab it ..." I recon he could be the type who will just go out and grab it next time - I'm on board his crowded bandwagon !!

[tony74]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

[maverick]

Just really disappointed for him that he dropped the chest mark in the goal square….

[Trixilver]

Just really disappointed for him that he dropped the chest mark in the goal square….

Likewise. But these are the games to make the mistakes and learn. I can see him making the most of an AFL game at some stage this year.

[saintspremiers]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

I guess because we are a development side he can get a few games in the ones.

Is that the plan for early or perhaps mid to late this season ?

[Bunk_Moreland]

I would think Holmes game day instructions would be to "stick it up 'em"

[Dave McNamara]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

Thanks tony. That makes sense, and the striker/avoiding off-side analogy is a good one.

I guess, I just see getting Jason getting his hands on the ball... other than at ruck contests, as all he's missing. I reckon he's already a very good AFL-standard tap ruckman.

I've often wondered about playing him at CHF or FF (maybe for just a half or even just a quarter at a time, at Sandy?) My instructions to him whilst there would be to just get to as many marking contests as he can... and that he can best do that by demanding the footy... be it on the lead, or kicked to a marking contest involving him.

I seem to remember the game's greatest ever pack mark, Stevie Loewe, saying (words to the effect of) that he worked on the principle of... "If I can get to twenty marking contests, I'm a chance to take ten of them."

Well, even if Jason starts by just getting his hands on ten of them, I reckon he'll soon start holding one or two. Then the confidence and belief will grow, and soon he'll soon start holding a few more...

Thoughts...?

[plugger66]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

Thanks tony. That makes sense, and the striker/avoiding off-side analogy is a good one.

I guess, I just see getting Jason getting his hands on the ball... other than at ruck contests, as all he's missing. I reckon he's already a very good AFL-standard tap ruckman.

I've often wondered about playing him at CHF or FF (maybe for just a half or even just a quarter at a time, at Sandy?) My instructions to him whilst there would be to just get to as many marking contests as he can... and that he can best do that by demanding the footy... be it on the lead, or kicked to a marking contest involving him.

I seem to remember the game's greatest ever pack mark, Stevie Loewe, saying (words to the effect of) that he worked on the principle of... "If I can get to twenty marking contests, I'm a chance to take ten of them."

Well, even if Jason starts by just getting his hands on ten of them, I reckon he'll soon start holding one or two. Then the confidence and belief will grow, and soon he'll soon start holding a few more...

Thoughts...?

Ruckmen cant do that Dave. They are required to drop a kick behind the play a fair amount during the game and also what Loewe said was back when footy was played differently. Probably isn't even 20 contests in a game now.

[kosifantutti]

Just really disappointed for him that he dropped the chest mark in the goal square….

When did that happen? I had some technical difficulties in the second half.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Just really disappointed for him that he dropped the chest mark in the goal square….

When did that happen? I had some technical difficulties in the second half.

Just after Phil Collins' second number and just before the little girl sang twinkle twinkle little star

[plugger66]

Just really disappointed for him that he dropped the chest mark in the goal square….

When did that happen? I had some technical difficulties in the second half.

Just after Phil Collins' second number and just before the little girl sang twinkle twinkle little star

I think it was baa baa black sheep.

[Dave McNamara]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

Thanks tony. That makes sense, and the striker/avoiding off-side analogy is a good one.

I guess, I just see getting Jason getting his hands on the ball... other than at ruck contests, as all he's missing. I reckon he's already a very good AFL-standard tap ruckman.

I've often wondered about playing him at CHF or FF (maybe for just a half or even just a quarter at a time, at Sandy?) My instructions to him whilst there would be to just get to as many marking contests as he can... and that he can best do that by demanding the footy... be it on the lead, or kicked to a marking contest involving him.

I seem to remember the game's greatest ever pack mark, Stevie Loewe, saying (words to the effect of) that he worked on the principle of... "If I can get to twenty marking contests, I'm a chance to take ten of them."

Well, even if Jason starts by just getting his hands on ten of them, I reckon he'll soon start holding one or two. Then the confidence and belief will grow, and soon he'll soon start holding a few more...

Thoughts...?

Ruckmen cant do that Dave. They are required to drop a kick behind the play a fair amount during the game and also what Loewe said was back when footy was played differently. Probably isn't even 20 contests in a game now.

I totally agree with that, which is why I'd like to see him play periods of the game not as our ruckman, but as a key forward.

I just think that Jason's next step in achieving his potential is to get his hands on the footy more. And the best way I can think of is for him to play in a posi' where he can demand the footy. During those periods (at CHF or FF) I would want him presenting as a target... be it on the lead, be it on the long lead (Roo style) or just having it kicked long to him. I wouldn't be fussed if he didn't gain many possessions initially. I just want him touching the footy more, and I reckon he'd then start taking the odd mark, then a few more, and so on...

[plugger66]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

Thanks tony. That makes sense, and the striker/avoiding off-side analogy is a good one.

I guess, I just see getting Jason getting his hands on the ball... other than at ruck contests, as all he's missing. I reckon he's already a very good AFL-standard tap ruckman.

I've often wondered about playing him at CHF or FF (maybe for just a half or even just a quarter at a time, at Sandy?) My instructions to him whilst there would be to just get to as many marking contests as he can... and that he can best do that by demanding the footy... be it on the lead, or kicked to a marking contest involving him.

I seem to remember the game's greatest ever pack mark, Stevie Loewe, saying (words to the effect of) that he worked on the principle of... "If I can get to twenty marking contests, I'm a chance to take ten of them."

Well, even if Jason starts by just getting his hands on ten of them, I reckon he'll soon start holding one or two. Then the confidence and belief will grow, and soon he'll soon start holding a few more...

Thoughts...?

Ruckmen cant do that Dave. They are required to drop a kick behind the play a fair amount during the game and also what Loewe said was back when footy was played differently. Probably isn't even 20 contests in a game now.

I totally agree with that, which is why I'd like to see him play periods of the game not as our ruckman, but as a key forward.

I just think that Jason's next step in achieving his potential is to get his hands on the footy more. And the best way I can think of is for him to play in a posi' where he can demand the footy. During those periods (at CHF or FF) I would want him presenting as a target... be it on the lead, be it on the long lead (Roo style) or just having it kicked long to him. I wouldn't be fussed if he didn't gain many possessions initially. I just want him touching the footy more, and I reckon he'd then start taking the odd mark, then a few more, and so on...

He played forward in the third quarter last week Dave. He is a ruckman and needs to learn that position first. He isn't going to play as a forward. I understand your thinking but it doesn't happen in AFL footy.

[Enrico_Misso]

I think he was focused on getting to the key and not dribbling.

[Dave McNamara]

His match day instructions are to get to the ruck contest at all times. As other posters have stated he just doesn't have the nouse or confidence to alter what can be done on the field at any given moment. But he's getting better, and will be given game time to improve.
Think of playing soccer as a striker, and you've never really played the game. You would be so pre occupied in not being off side you lose sight of how the play is developing. That's Jasons problem. But watch him improve.

Thanks tony. That makes sense, and the striker/avoiding off-side analogy is a good one.

I guess, I just see getting Jason getting his hands on the ball... other than at ruck contests, as all he's missing. I reckon he's already a very good AFL-standard tap ruckman.

I've often wondered about playing him at CHF or FF (maybe for just a half or even just a quarter at a time, at Sandy?) My instructions to him whilst there would be to just get to as many marking contests as he can... and that he can best do that by demanding the footy... be it on the lead, or kicked to a marking contest involving him.

I seem to remember the game's greatest ever pack mark, Stevie Loewe, saying (words to the effect of) that he worked on the principle of... "If I can get to twenty marking contests, I'm a chance to take ten of them."

Well, even if Jason starts by just getting his hands on ten of them, I reckon he'll soon start holding one or two. Then the confidence and belief will grow, and soon he'll soon start holding a few more...

Thoughts...?

Ruckmen cant do that Dave. They are required to drop a kick behind the play a fair amount during the game and also what Loewe said was back when footy was played differently. Probably isn't even 20 contests in a game now.

I totally agree with that, which is why I'd like to see him play periods of the game not as our ruckman, but as a key forward.

I just think that Jason's next step in achieving his potential is to get his hands on the footy more. And the best way I can think of is for him to play in a posi' where he can demand the footy. During those periods (at CHF or FF) I would want him presenting as a target... be it on the lead, be it on the long lead (Roo style) or just having it kicked long to him. I wouldn't be fussed if he didn't gain many possessions initially. I just want him touching the footy more, and I reckon he'd then start taking the odd mark, then a few more, and so on...

He played forward in the third quarter last week Dave. He is a ruckman and needs to learn that position first. He isn't going to play as a forward. I understand your thinking but it doesn't happen in AFL footy.

We have to stop agreeing.

What you wrote is why I suggested Jason just spends some time ( say, a quarter or a even a half here and there) up forward, purely to speed-up his getting more of the ball in his hands... and yes, at Sandy c/f in the AFL.