Consistent performance and Disposal efficacy

[skeptic]

As I was watching the VFL pre-lim yesterday I had a moment of clarity with regards to what has really bothered me about our club over the last few seasons, even going back to when we were genuine flag challengers in the 2008-10 era. Now bear with me because these are hardly ground breaking thoughts or revelations but nonetheless they've struck a cord with me.

I watched as Sandy stormed home, and hit the front late in the game... only to make a bunch of errors that stopped us from being able to capitalise on our momentum... build on our lead, or snatch it back after it was lost.

I saw TDL kick the ball from the defensive 50 straight out of bounds on the full.
I saw Cameron Shenton under pressure but not impaired in any way, aim to kick the ball about 30m to a free team mate only to spray the kick 15m in an off direction
I saw Ahmed Saad win the ball in the FP, turn around, square up a free man directly infront and put the ball 5m over his head.


It got me thinking back to the 2000'ish era. I want to throw some names at you guys in regards to the players that were on our list at or around that time give or take a few seasons.

Brett Moyle
Justin Plapp
Chad Davis
Gavin Mitchell
Tim Elliot
Jason Trianedes
Steven Sziller
Matthew Young
Jason Heately
Joe McLaren
David Sierkowski
Sam Cranage
Ben Walton

And many many more that I have pbly long since forgotten

Now despite generally being a forgettable group of players by the time they finished up with us (and pbly an idication of why we were soooo bad)... what do these guys have in common?

In that era... amongst fans and certainly on Saintsational, all of those players had their fair share of supporters that really liked/rated them in addition to their critics.

All of those guys had the ability to do good things during games, and even to have the odd good game. Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

A Saintsationalist on the old temporary forum pointed out how they were miffed at how a player could do one thing that gets them on the highlight reel and fans can often look at them a lot more positively then perhaps they deserve.

For whatever reason, that has always really stayed with me... and it's probably a key reason why I myself have a tendency to target players that I perceieve not to do enough but bob up to occasionally do the nice odd things.
(And this long forgotten forumite is pbly the reason why I drive forum batty sometimes with critiques that many feel are very harsh).

Looking at the players of which my opinion has gone against the grain substantially (to the annoyance of many), over the last few seasons:
- Adam Schneider
- Sam Gilbert
- Clint Jones
- James Gwilt
- Farren Ray

They're pbly the big 5 I've had it in for pbly since the GF in 2010. Now putting the validity of my criticisms aside for a moment... the really irksome thing for me has been that all of these players have regularly done really good things during games... good contests, run downs, passess etc... and heck cetainly Jones, Schneider, Ray etc have certainly had good games as well at times too. But by and large I feel that in the majority of games played, I feel like the quality of their performances have been elevated both on this form and pbly in the eyes of the club too (just an opinion) because of the occasional lace out passes, contested marks etc

Anyway, I don't want to get into those specific players too much.

The crux of what I'm getting at here is that on our current list, there are a number of players that I think we need to make hard decisions on because they have these defiencies in their game that simply:
a) won't go away
b) are not defiencies that should be evident in AFL players
And it kind of sucks because a lot of these guys have attributes that are really quite desirable as well.

Cameron Shenton is the first one. He's a good kid, he tried really hard... attacks the contest, takes marks but... too often he sprays kicks in an extraordinarily horrendous fashion. AFL players shouldn't regularly miss targets within 30m or if they are under no pressure... And I'm not talking about a hurried kick under pressure and an odd clanger... even Robert Harvey sprayed the odd one of his 25 kicks a game. This kid sprays them way wide way too often... it's one thing to not have elite disposal but good teams don't have players that do that as regularly as Cam does.

In the modern game turnovers are what kill you both in terms of not capitalising, and snuffing mometum by gifting the opposition easy shots.

Pbly Jarry Geary is another. I love the guy I really do... he works so hard and is such a fierce competitor but we all just cringe whenever he has the ball

My thoughts on Sam Gilbert are well known so let that one slide for now other than to say that I at least am a bit disappointed that we didn't try to trade him but hopefully, his form has related to injury and maybe he can turn it around and play more games like the one Vs Geelong this year.

Then you have guys that are either right on the fringe or their time is more or less up (not referring to inconsistent juniors) or are just too poor by either hand or foot...
Siposs and Templeton don't get it enough
Spencer doesn't seem to be good enough to get on the park atm
Curren is slow
Ross... slow with a tendency to go missing
Wright... erratic disposal (but hopefully now is injury free and can get into good form)

I don't know... I guess I'm rambling a bit at this point... am certainly not suggesting we cut all of those players


We've drafted so well recently... hopefully we can continue to bring in some good kids this season that can really dispose of the ball.

On a side note... Big fan of Dasher Minchington and the ripper performance he had on the W/E and I have to say that getting down to Sandy, have loved the way Sippa has gone about it recently too... guy is such a nice kick and has looked decent as running flanker. Arryn fought for his spot in the last month... could be too little to late but I'd love to give him 1 more chance.

Too bad for Markworth

[White Winmar]

Have to agree with most of that, Skeptic. I'm excited by some of our recent draftees for the simple reason they seem to be good "all rounders", meaning they don't have obvious weaknesses like some of those you mentioned. Lonie, Sinclair, Goddard and McCartin look very assured for first year players. Of course they will be more thoroughly tested from here on in, but they have a certain composure about their play, which is almost impossible to teach.

Of the other youngsters, I think Newnes, Dunstan and Billings look the goods. As for Templeton, Ross, Acres, McKenzie and Wright, I believe they all have the ability to become solid and consistent senior players. They all need various amounts of time and development, but if they can make it, we should have the depth to challenge consistently for a long time.

With Eli, I believe it's a matter of confidence. I recently watched a replay of his second game against the GWS. What a little excitement machine he was. I think we tend to forget how bad his injury was last year and it might take a year or two for him to fully recover psychologically.

[White Winmar]

Forgot Jimmy Webster. He'll make it ,IMHO of course. Composed and a beautiful kick.

[plugger66]

As I was watching the VFL pre-lim yesterday I had a moment of clarity with regards to what has really bothered me about our club over the last few seasons, even going back to when we were genuine flag challengers in the 2008-10 era. Now bear with me because these are hardly ground breaking thoughts or revelations but nonetheless they've struck a cord with me.

I watched as Sandy stormed home, and hit the front late in the game... only to make a bunch of errors that stopped us from being able to capitalise on our momentum... build on our lead, or snatch it back after it was lost.

I saw TDL kick the ball from the defensive 50 straight out of bounds on the full.
I saw Cameron Shenton under pressure but not impaired in any way, aim to kick the ball about 30m to a free team mate only to spray the kick 15m in an off direction
I saw Ahmed Saad win the ball in the FP, turn around, square up a free man directly infront and put the ball 5m over his head.


It got me thinking back to the 2000'ish era. I want to throw some names at you guys in regards to the players that were on our list at or around that time give or take a few seasons.

Brett Moyle
Justin Plapp
Chad Davis
Gavin Mitchell
Tim Elliot
Jason Trianedes
Steven Sziller
Matthew Young
Jason Heately
Joe McLaren
David Sierkowski
Sam Cranage
Ben Walton

And many many more that I have pbly long since forgotten

Now despite generally being a forgettable group of players by the time they finished up with us (and pbly an idication of why we were soooo bad)... what do these guys have in common?

In that era... amongst fans and certainly on Saintsational, all of those players had their fair share of supporters that really liked/rated them in addition to their critics.

All of those guys had the ability to do good things during games, and even to have the odd good game. Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

A Saintsationalist on the old temporary forum pointed out how they were miffed at how a player could do one thing that gets them on the highlight reel and fans can often look at them a lot more positively then perhaps they deserve.

For whatever reason, that has always really stayed with me... and it's probably a key reason why I myself have a tendency to target players that I perceieve not to do enough but bob up to occasionally do the nice odd things.
(And this long forgotten forumite is pbly the reason why I drive forum batty sometimes with critiques that many feel are very harsh).

Looking at the players of which my opinion has gone against the grain substantially (to the annoyance of many), over the last few seasons:
- Adam Schneider
- Sam Gilbert
- Clint Jones
- James Gwilt
- Farren Ray

They're pbly the big 5 I've had it in for pbly since the GF in 2010. Now putting the validity of my criticisms aside for a moment... the really irksome thing for me has been that all of these players have regularly done really good things during games... good contests, run downs, passess etc... and heck cetainly Jones, Schneider, Ray etc have certainly had good games as well at times too. But by and large I feel that in the majority of games played, I feel like the quality of their performances have been elevated both on this form and pbly in the eyes of the club too (just an opinion) because of the occasional lace out passes, contested marks etc

Anyway, I don't want to get into those specific players too much.

The crux of what I'm getting at here is that on our current list, there are a number of players that I think we need to make hard decisions on because they have these defiencies in their game that simply:
a) won't go away
b) are not defiencies that should be evident in AFL players
And it kind of sucks because a lot of these guys have attributes that are really quite desirable as well.

Cameron Shenton is the first one. He's a good kid, he tried really hard... attacks the contest, takes marks but... too often he sprays kicks in an extraordinarily horrendous fashion. AFL players shouldn't regularly miss targets within 30m or if they are under no pressure... And I'm not talking about a hurried kick under pressure and an odd clanger... even Robert Harvey sprayed the odd one of his 25 kicks a game. This kid sprays them way wide way too often... it's one thing to not have elite disposal but good teams don't have players that do that as regularly as Cam does.

In the modern game turnovers are what kill you both in terms of not capitalising, and snuffing mometum by gifting the opposition easy shots.

Pbly Jarry Geary is another. I love the guy I really do... he works so hard and is such a fierce competitor but we all just cringe whenever he has the ball

My thoughts on Sam Gilbert are well known so let that one slide for now other than to say that I at least am a bit disappointed that we didn't try to trade him but hopefully, his form has related to injury and maybe he can turn it around and play more games like the one Vs Geelong this year.

Then you have guys that are either right on the fringe or their time is more or less up (not referring to inconsistent juniors) or are just too poor by either hand or foot...
Siposs and Templeton don't get it enough
Spencer doesn't seem to be good enough to get on the park atm
Curren is slow
Ross... slow with a tendency to go missing
Wright... erratic disposal (but hopefully now is injury free and can get into good form)

I don't know... I guess I'm rambling a bit at this point... am certainly not suggesting we cut all of those players


We've drafted so well recently... hopefully we can continue to bring in some good kids this season that can really dispose of the ball.

On a side note... Big fan of Dasher Minchington and the ripper performance he had on the W/E and I have to say that getting down to Sandy, have loved the way Sippa has gone about it recently too... guy is such a nice kick and has looked decent as running flanker. Arryn fought for his spot in the last month... could be too little to late but I'd love to give him 1 more chance.

Too bad for Markworth

I struggling to get your point firstly on the first group of players as you say that's why we were so bad when some were actually good players and played in a GF. Maybe I'm missing something. As for the current players of course it would be great if they were all the best skilled players but they all don't have to be. Geary and Gilbert for example have enough other skills to overcome their kicking skills where as a player like Siposs and probably Minchington have good kicking skills but just don't get enough a the ball to be regular senior players. I used those 4 players as exampoles of kicking skills aren't everything but you cant have 20 Gearys or Gilberts but you can still carry 2 or 3 in a premiership side.

[SaintPav]

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick.

[Mr Magic]

How many players in the current Hawthorn team are poor/inconsistent kicks?

[SainterK]

Brad Hill tends to shank it
Suckling can kick but lacks composure and makes horrendous decisions
Always thought Brad Sewell tended to bomb it in high

[spert]

We lost too much advantage in games this season with not average, but terrible disposal and decision making, and lots of it when players were in the clear. This kind of thing has a always been just plain bad football, and although teams can carry the odd player with average kicking skills, it is getting more and more harder now to get away with it especially against top teams. Richo said at the B&F along the lines that if we had kicked 7 more points per game and saved two goals per game, then we have been in 8th position (correct me if I'm wrong), and I don't think I even need to look at stats to know that in so many matches we delivered the ball so badly into the forward line, that we couldn't kick the extra goal, and turned over the ball so easy to the opposition, giving away charity goals. I think disposal quality would be very high on Richos to-do list of things to fix, and would be very important in who to keep, recruit and let go.

[saynta]

[quote="skeptic"]
Spencer doesn't seem to be good enough to get on the park atm
/quote]


Pretty hard to get on the park with a broken leg.

[White Winmar]

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick.

Couldn't get the ball to kick it, unfortunately.

[Dis Believer]

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick.

How would anyone know - did he get the ball at some stage??

[SaintPav]

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick.

Couldn't get the ball to kick it, unfortunately.

Indeed.

Let me rephrase.

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick, apparently.

[plugger66]

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick.

Couldn't get the ball to kick it, unfortunately.

Indeed.

Let me rephrase.

Sam Crocker was a beautiful left foot kick, apparently.

IM guessing Pav is making a point that kicking isn't everything.

[saintspremiers]

I'd get Tim Elliott off that list. Biggest hack defender we've had for decades. He was a specialist at kick outs. Straight to the opposition!

[Teflon]

Tis true we've had a smattering of good disposers but often the minority...

[plugger66]

I'd get Tim Elliott off that list. Biggest hack defender we've had for decades. He was a specialist at kick outs. Straight to the opposition!

I doubt he ever kicked out but I do love the way you knock our players. You are my hero. What about saying these comments to their faces. Do you have the courage? My guess is you are an internet hero.

[BringBackMadDog]

Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

Jason Heatley kicked 78 goals in a team that finished on top of the ladder and played off in a Grand Final, he was so much better than " a guy who kicked 5 goals in a game vs Carlton".

[skeptic]

Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

Jason Heatley kicked 78 goals in a team that finished on top of the ladder and played off in a Grand Final, he was so much better than " a guy who kicked 5 goals in a game vs Carlton".

I understand what you're saying but by the end of his career Heatley couldnt get a game... And could barely get a kick in the matches he did play.

His last 2 seasons he was barely a fringe player

[plugger66]

Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

Jason Heatley kicked 78 goals in a team that finished on top of the ladder and played off in a Grand Final, he was so much better than " a guy who kicked 5 goals in a game vs Carlton".

I understand what you're saying but by the end of his career Heatley couldnt get a game... And could barely get a kick in the matches he did play.

His last 2 seasons he was barely a fringe player

So was Kosi. Doesn't make them ordinary players just like Sziller and Young. Good players all 3 for a period.

[mambo2706]

Heatley for example, I believe kicked 5 goals in a game Vs Carlton in his last season with us.

Jason Heatley kicked 78 goals in a team that finished on top of the ladder and played off in a Grand Final, he was so much better than " a guy who kicked 5 goals in a game vs Carlton".

Heatley also kicked a bag of 9, 2 bags of 7 (including in the Prelim) and a bag of 6. One of the best kicks for goal I have seen at the Saints. From memory 1997 was his only really good year for us.

[skeptic]

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Heatley play for us for a grand total of 4 seasons. First in. 97, delisted in 2000...not able to get near it in his last season.

Comparisons with Kosi are ridiculous... Justin had a freaking 10 year career and fell away towards the end. Heatley was at best a flash in the pan.

I liked the guy but his lack of attention to improve himself and working hard saw the game over take him in a year. He could have been a really good player... Instead he was a player that had one really good season