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eppo67 wrote:"Clearly our skill level needs to get better, we need to find some talent and we need to tighten up our system," he said, adding youth already at the club would be given more opportunities.
On AFL.COM
thanks.
As O said...Lyon will evole us next year.
He gave us our best crack in 2010...but 2011 is a new story.
We will be different. Bank on it.
Those calling for Lyon's head are kidding themselves.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
widereceiver wrote:...who among us would have said ...
All Australian #11 would do nuthin'..
Me. He has never shined in any final, let alone a GF. He is a good runner, with a strong tank, but his physique means he can never win the tough contest. He also can't mark overhead and is the most inaccurate of all of our midfielders. Whilst Nick R may not have been BOG in GFs, he has been BOG in crucial cut throat finals. No comparison.
Waltzing St Kilda wrote:
And those flaws come down to a certain inflexibility, almost blind faith, in players who don't warrant a regular game. So while he's been ruthless with players like Hudghton and Ball (and others like Shane Birss), he continues to put his faith in quintessential battlers like Eddy, McQualter and Kosi -- not to mention draft-horses like Dempster -- at the expense of rising talent like Miles, Stanley, Steven and Armitage.
The Pies, to their credit, put game-time into the likes of Blair and McAffer while downgrading GOPs like Lockyer, Jack Anthony and Josh Fraser.
.
firstly Maxy was clearly in his final year last year so for a coach to try and limit the loss by gradually phasing them out is fine IMO with Ball for the 18 billionth time HE LEFT US !! and lets be honest he wasnt setting the world on fire either how many games did he feature in our Bests in his last year ?? Now Birss was an out and out Crab too slow didnt get enoughof the ball and the fact not one AFL club even considered him after we cut him loose proves that he was no great loss....
6 weeks ago the word was Miles was going to be delisted so obviously winning the half time sprint makes you the new poster boy for the fans .. ditto to Stanley Steven is coming along nicely but he is still only young he will get his spot next year if he keeps on the way he is tracking
"The team that wins in the most positions and makes the least amount of mistakes, usually wins the game." -- Allan Jeans
saintsRrising wrote:Why are you only comparing us with the Pies then. What about the other 14 Clubs?.
Because the Pies have come from being significantly behind us to surpassing us in a very short time. And they seemed to achieve this largely by rapidly developing some of their young talent.
If Lyon is prepared to start doing this, then great. But do you really believe he can transform himself in this way?
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
meher baba wrote:
Because the Pies have come from being significantly behind us ?
Sorry my mistake... that must have been some other team in black and white that finished above us in 2006 and 2007?????????????????
Pies ahve been tinkering and trying different things since Mlathouse arrived. Putting as a magical change in just the last coupe of years is fanciful stuff.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Sat 02 Oct 2010 10:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
[quote="st_Trav_ofWA"]
6 weeks ago the word was Miles was going to be delisted so obviously winning the half time sprint makes you the new poster boy for the fans
Trav Miles played the last 2 H&A games and was very impressive. Has a future IMO.
16 Disposals in Rd. 21 & 17 Disposals in Rd. 22. Not bad for first 2 games.
eppo67 wrote:
Trav Miles played the last 2 H&A games and was very impressive. Has a future IMO.16 Disposals in Rd. 21 & 17 Disposals in Rd. 22. Not bad for first 2 games.
I do too....and despite what some our stating in this thread...he is part of some new players that are being developed for our future.
However for 2010 finals they as a group were not all ready, if if one or two could have played.
With Miles he specifically has had had several injury set-backs since joing the club and without these yes maybe he could have beena regular by now.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
widereceiver wrote:Suck it up princesses and don't shoot the messenger. He's achieved a lot and who among us would have said ...
All Australian #11 would do nuthin'
Our captain #12 would do next to nuthin' for the 3rd. Grand Final in a row.
Why pick on the numties on the list? We don't have any depth, though I would have picked Geary before Eddy, any day or any night.
and would you all please shut up about David Armitage, he is a non-event.
Perhaps you want some blood-letting like we had with our last coach who got us to a grand final...
SUCK IT UP PRINCESSES, WE WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!
What does this statement mean "Suck it up Princesses.....".? I think most here agree with your statements above. What is to "suck up"????
Who is this supposed messenger? Is this supposed to be Lyon? If so, the lack of depth is very much part of his doing.
Midfield clearances and clear winners are needed to make an effective forward line.
You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
saintsRrising wrote:
* Every year he has been there the gameplan has changed in some way..
Only problem with that is that our game plan was worse this year. We seemed to stop doing many of the things that worked so well last year and Collingwood did them instead, to great effect.
saintsRrising wrote:
* Every year he has been there the gameplan has changed in some way..
Only problem with that is that our game plan was worse this year. We seemed to stop doing many of the things that worked so well last year and Collingwood did them instead, to great effect.
I think you are confusing workrate and execution with gameplan
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
[quote="Waltzing St Kilda"]You could easily argue that Ross Lyon is our second most successful coach ever. He's an exceptional tactician and motivator. His effort in holding the Saints together during this most testing of years, and almost stealing a premiership, deserve enormous credit.
But ... it's on days like this that his flaws are writ large.
And those flaws come down to a certain inflexibility, almost blind faith, in players who don't warrant a regular game. So while he's been ruthless with players like Hudghton and Ball (and others like Shane Birss), he continues to put his faith in quintessential battlers like Eddy, McQualter and Kosi -- not to mention draft-horses like Dempster -- at the expense of rising talent like Miles, Stanley, Steven and Armitage.
Sure, there were very few good Saints players today -- even the cream was sour -- but it seems to me we'll never get a flag with our existing scattering of lumbering oafs and unskilled hacks.
It's time to refresh. It's time for Ross Lyon to listen to outside wisdom.[/quot
I agree whole heartedly with this post ! RL has done well to get the team to GF's but he needs to do some real self assessment if he wants the team to take the next step. His backing of poorly skilled slow stoppers has cost us two GF wins !!!
It was obviously last year that we had to take a step back to go two steps forward with our player list. RL tried to trade in Lovett which failed miserably and he further failed miserably in the Ball trade.
This year we should have been playing Allistair SMITH or Jack STEVEN over McQualter.
They should have been playing Lynch & Miles over Blake or Dempster.
Roo & Kosi are too easily moved under the ball - and RL and his coaching team had their pants pulled down in the replay. We had no hope of scoring when they were allowed to flood back on to of Roo.
My assessment of RL selections and handling of the replay is he was very very poor!
SAINTS another day older another day closer to the Holy Grail!
The following guys must get first crack at it next year:
-Steven
-McEvoy
-Stanley
-Armitage
These guys MUST see senior footy:
-Miles
-Smith
-Heyne
-Lynch
STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY.
''I still get really excited, and I've got the '66 thing up on the wall in a frame … You look at it and think: one day, we want to achieve that.''- Arryn Siposs
Heard some very interesting news last night, from someone on our senior list this year, that, apart from anything else, those who were Ross's assistants this year "couldn't get out the door fast enough". He even said that one or more of them actually spoke to one or more of those who have taken their place, to tell/warn them that "there's more to life than the St K FC" and that they're "much happier to be out of the club, than they were in it". If true that would go a long way to explaining why they all left a club that just played in 3 GF's in 13 months. So apparently working under Ross is far from a pleasant experience.
He also said that the "main 22", on the playing list are treated "like kings", while the rest are treated like "second class citizens" and get very little "attention"/time, etc, compared with those who were playing AFL most/every week. Which, if true, and I have little reason not to believe him, would explain why those playing mostly in the VFL haven't come on anywhere near as well as we hoped/thought they would. That will need to change significantly next year, or we're likely to be in serious strife, at least if we want to win the flag. If we don't improve from those outside the "first 22" it's hard to see where we're going to improve, considering we don't have a draft pick till the mid 20's and didn't trade for anyone.
Perhaps those assistants need gentle reminding that the only reason they were probably sought after by other clubs in the first place, is because they were at St Kilda and under Ross Lyon.
As far how he treats the players outside the 22, I wouldn't know and it's really only gossip. However there is an easy solution to those outside of it, work your backside off to be inside of it.
That's an awfully talkative unnamed source. From the sounds of things it was a fringe player unhappy with his opportunities that has intimate knowledge of what the coaches are doing, even though the coaches don't talk to fringe players.
My advice would be if you're driving down south road and you see Luke Miles ranting at the sky, just keep driving. Don't stop to listen. He's probably just bitter anyway.
If it's true as reported (which I seriously doubt), it sounds like it might be sour grapes from a footballer who perhaps might do better to pay more attention to sharpening his on-field performances rather than to spreading malicious gossip that ends up on an online forum like this.
While it is somewhat unusual that all the assistants cleared out at the same time, there seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable explanation for why each one decided to leave.
Silvagni stayed with Ross for 4 seasons, which hardly sounds to me like a case of someone being desperate to leave.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote:Heard some very interesting news last night, from someone on our senior list this year, that, apart from anything else, those who were Ross's assistants this year "couldn't get out the door fast enough". He even said that one or more of them actually spoke to one or more of those who have taken their place, to tell/warn them that "there's more to life than the St K FC" and that they're "much happier to be out of the club, than they were in it". If true that would go a long way to explaining why they all left a club that just played in 3 GF's in 13 months. So apparently working under Ross is far from a pleasant experience.
He also said that the "main 22", on the playing list are treated "like kings", while the rest are treated like "second class citizens" and get very little "attention"/time, etc, compared with those who were playing AFL most/every week. Which, if true, and I have little reason not to believe him, would explain why those playing mostly in the VFL haven't come on anywhere near as well as we hoped/thought they would. That will need to change significantly next year, or we're likely to be in serious strife, at least if we want to win the flag. If we don't improve from those outside the "first 22" it's hard to see where we're going to improve, considering we don't have a draft pick till the mid 20's and didn't trade for anyone.
eppo67 wrote:
. I also agree with the subject post Ross shows blind faith in Eddy/Mini. .
I think Mini will be on the outer next year as well.
However Ross had supposed "blind faith" in Zac as well and Zac hada very good finals series.
Lyon needs to evolve for 2011 and I am 100% confident that he would have.
While I realy really like Smith, Stanley, Miles, Steven and Armo.....most likely in they all were being played late in 2010 we would have been bounced out of the finals real quick.
We had our best shot at it 2010....and in 2011 we will give it another rack with an evolved team and tactics.
zac is bit different. the fact is 196cm defenders dont grow on trees. they are very rare indeed. but 180cm blokes do and eddy/mini seemed to get way too many games without doing anything yet one bad game from armo and hes out and refucal to even give smith a game at all. its reverse favouritism and "tough love" rarely works in life in general.
seems the penny has dropped. but is it too late?
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Mon 15 Nov 2010 6:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
I believe MB is correct.
The story doesn't stand up to scrutiny ( I believe you were told the story).
SOS stayed on for a fourth year. He could easily have picked up another job had he wanted to.
Tudor left after his contract expired. I know for a fact he was astonished by what he found on his arriva adn relished the opportunity adn lattitude he was given to improve our forward line.
Elshaugh left mid-season for personal reasons and then came back to assist at finals time. Surely if Lyon was a major issue for him he would not have returned?
Royal who replaced Elshaugh was offered a continuing rols and took a better offer (more senior role) at Melbourne. In his interview on SEN last week he couldn't have been more complimentary to Lyon and StKilda.
The only one who may have left 'bitter' is Andy Lovell at Sandringham. Maybe what was spoken about is a problem between Sandringham and Saints in terms of the 'lack of focus' by Saints at Sandy?
Zebraman should be able to shed some more light on that.
i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
the fact is RL didnt create a culture for players doing well to get a game over the last 3 years. at the pies if u are a fringe player - 2 bad games and ur in the vfl. 2 good games in the vfl and ur in the seniors. regardless of age.
ross just played the same blokes all the time and would only promote vfl guys if there were serious injuries in the main group.
incentive structures and development culture have been serious flaws from the outside in the past 3 years. so im not surprised in the least that its an issue on the inside. id give some credence to the gossip - it makes sense to what appears to be going from afar.
Con Gorozidis wrote:ross just played the same blokes all the time and would only promote vfl guys if there were serious injuries in the main group.
There were pretty much injuries all year long. Aside from Smith, I don't think a senior player could claim they didn't get a shot. Gwilt was the only player who came from outside the 22 and really made a spot his own. Steven showed some promise, but his last couple of games were terrible. Stanley looked really good while doing nothing. Armo couldn't find any consistent form. Geary tailed off as the year went on.
Ross played our senior players because they were our best chance of winning.
A few points, Zac Dawson said last year to me that he loved it at St Kilda because everyone was treated equally unlike at Hawthorn.
As for Ross not seeking outside advice, there is often articles about him meeting with various people to get advice, so not so sure about that.
And regarding our younger players, they are hardly setting the world on fire at Sandy, maybe its the development coach and thankfully we now have a new one.
Wow Ross Lyon worked his assistants hard.. Maybe that's why we did so well.
That actually make me love him even more.
And when will people understand that winning so many games doesn't allow for unworthy blooding of youth. Not many pushed for selection anyways.
Unfortunately I don't know about the playing group being treated unequally. What I don't like when I've been to training is the senior group doing that handballing game. As much as I hate Wayne Carey one of the things that may have contributed to their success is the fact that he ensured every player came out for beers after games. Every player.
In this day is age I'm not suggesting beers - but that type of inclusion rather than clicky group makes one hell of a difference in a team sport.
He even mentioned something quiet the opposition at the bulldogs to darcey about little groups and stuff.
A handball game is the tip of the ice berg so only being suggestive and that's it
