is Ross Lyon the correct coach to rebuild the Saints

[joffaboy]

Now, this is NOT a sack RL thread. I am a great supporter of RL and think he is an outstanding coach.

But lets get a few things in perspective. RL was handed a list that had a pretty good core of young players who had made 2 PF's under the previous coach.

The club chose RL for a reason and that was because they thought he could coach us to a flag.

Well they were a couple of centimetres off being correct twice in two years.

Ross Lyon brought in recycled players to get us to the promised flag with the core he inherited from Grant Thomas.

That was his strength and we went within a whisker.

For many years (apart from the usual arguments about GT) the prevailing argument was that he was a great nurturer of kids and rebuild the team into the competitive unit it has been for 7 or so years. It was touted was his weakness was game day and he didn;t have the game plan to get us to the GF.

Well we know RL can get us to a GF, but is he capable of rebuilding a team? He never had to do it at Sydney who doesn't bottom out because of their location, and has topped up (as opposed to bottoming out) at the Saints.

I see a lot of similarities in what has happened to us in 2009/10 and what Collingwood went through after 2002/03.

Malthouse rebuilt and took the pain and critisism from his supporters. he stuck it out when many thought he was too old to rebuild.

I dont see Ross Lyon as a cut and run type of person. I beleive that his performance at the Saints helm entitles him to attempt the reloading of the team and gameplan.

However we are now travelling unchartered territory with a coach that has never had to rebuild.

Can he do it?

[saintlee]

Good post. Been wondering the same thing since the Bombers match. I do think he is the man to lead us through the painful rebuilding process, but we must start to recruit and develop young players far better than we have in the past 4 or 5 years.

[Dr Spaceman]

Now, this is NOT a sack RL thread. I am a great supporter of RL and think he is an outstanding coach.

But lets get a few things in perspective. RL was handed a list that had a pretty good core of young players who had made 2 PF's under the previous coach.

The club chose RL for a reason and that was because they thought he could coach us to a flag.

Well they were a couple of centimetres off being correct twice in two years.

Ross Lyon brought in recycled players to get us to the promised flag with the core he inherited from Grant Thomas.

That was his strength and we went within a whisker.

For many years (apart from the usual arguments about GT) the prevailing argument was that he was a great nurturer of kids and rebuild the team into the competitive unit it has been for 7 or so years. It was touted was his weakness was game day and he didn;t have the game plan to get us to the GF.

Well we know RL can get us to a GF, but is he capable of rebuilding a team? He never had to do it at Sydney who doesn't bottom out because of their location, and has topped up (as opposed to bottoming out) at the Saints.

I see a lot of similarities in what has happened to us in 2009/10 and what Collingwood went through after 2002/03.

Malthouse rebuilt and took the pain and critisism from his supporters. he stuck it out when many thought he was too old to rebuild.

I dont see Ross Lyon as a cut and run type of person. I beleive that his performance at the Saints helm entitles him to attempt the reloading of the team and gameplan.

However we are now travelling unchartered territory with a coach that has never had to rebuild.

Can he do it?

I'm backing him to do it.

In reality, unless we were to replace him with Malthouse we'd probably be replacing him with another coach who's never had to rebuild.

[fingers]

I think he is. He would have seen the process the Swans went through and he would have learnt what NOT to do at Richmond.

he's a good teacher - but I think he will need to challenge some of his own paradigms to make it happen. I do think that after the press conference yesterday he is starting to realise that.

[Richter]

Don't think we are in full rebuild territory JB. That would only come if we lose 2+ of our elite core - Roo, BJ, Dal, Lenny, Joey. With these guys still around we can still challenge for a finals spot. This year I see us finishing between 7-13 - midtable mediocrity.

What we must accept is that to reload and challenge again in 2012-4 these top 5 can no longer be the core around which the rest can support. We would need a much broader group of reliable players. We don't need any more champs, we need 4 or 5 new players to become B graders - some pace, good skills - to be moulded to into a team framework. I don't have a problem with recycled players, but we need to identify quickly who can make it and who can't (e.g. in the last few years: Schneider - yes; Gamble - no; McQ, Ray - maybe.)

Of course, if we lose 2+ of the elite players - to injury/retirement/trade then we're likely to sink deeper and longer, when a full rebuild would be required.

I actually see us as more like Sydney post-2007, than Collingwood post-2003.

[markp]

As above, I think we're in rejig mode, rather than rebuild... that's a few years off hopefully, and yes he's likely the man for that too. I'd back him in to lift the Premiership cup at least once during his career, just hope it's for the Saints.

[Richter]

'Rejig' - like it markp.

Irrespective of whether it is 'rejig', 'reload' or 'rebuild', what I think is vital for us is that RL is given a chance to do this. He has earnt this over his tenure so far, and it is important that as a club we back him to have a crack.

[Statsman]

Ross is a very astute coach. It would be naive to suggest he isn't capable to adjusting his immediate priorities from winning the GF to rejigging or rebuilding for our next tilt.

[meher baba]

I too do not believe that we are quite at rebuilding point yet. I think we are in a bit of a 2006 position: a good unit which needs a bit of adjustment.

Ross has started a bit ineptly with the adjustment and clearly needs to do a lot more thinking about it. Perhaps now this season looks like it might be gone (although I still think that it will take another 3-5 games for us to be certain of this fact), he can really get to work.

We should then remain serious flag contenders until members of the core group of Lenny, Riewoldt, BJ, Joey, Dal, Sam Fisher and co begin to call it a day: this point could conceivably be another 2-3 seasons away.

After that, it'll be time for Lyon to go. We would want to start on our rebuild with a new coach, captain, new President and CEO, new everything, so that nobody would be trying to defend anything about our current set up.

[Junction Oval]

Seems to be consensus that Ross is the man for the job and I agree wholehartedly with that. He is tactically astute, knows his players well, has respect, but perhaps conservative on game days. Who could be better armed than him right now?

Strategies, set plays, players, all need to be re-assessed and youth given opportunities. 2011 GF may be out of the question, but with our core group hopefully still available in 2012, all is not yet lost for that year.

Having followed the Saints through the very lean years, playing finals regularly is a great feeling, as is going to the footy knowing that we "can win" on any given day. Enjoy the run and take a GF win as the icing on the cake.

Mick Malthouse was able to turn himself and his approach around. Perhaps in similar circumstances now, Ross can do the same.

[Thinline]

The difference between us now and Collingwood 02-03 is that we were closer to the top and unlucky not to get one. The Pies were a significantly lesser side to the one at the top of the tree when they played in those GF's. The Pies weren't as many suggest unlucky in 02. They were beaten fair and square by a champion side on a flattish day. The Pies were belted in 03 because they weren't even close to good enough. Point is history means little. Chalk and cheese.

We have an outstanding core who need support. That they haven't had/ don't have support is a direct result of our game plan being superseded. For a while we could carry 'role' players. The modern game, the one we helped shape, requires much more than that. Problem is we haven't developed as well as we should have in the interim. Thank christ we seem to have nabbed a good bunch of kids this year. Get something out of them, have our 'there or thereabouts' types (Steven, Stanley, Geary, blah, blah) lift it a notch, and we still have a BIG sniff.

It is simply impossible to be a top four side every year without a hiccup. The game moves too fast. I think we should all simply accept we're going to have to go back to how we felt in 2006 for a bit so we can resharpen our edge.

But there's time. We just have to be smart.

[Royston]

I like to think that the fire is still burning in Ross' belly.
My concern/frustration it that in 2009 we got a jump on the rest of the competition with the forward press and the like that just about got us the flag. IMO he got a upper/middle range list to achieve great things. The forward press/pressure has now been aped and enhanced by a number of clubs and the league as a whole sees all teams emphasising forward pressure....
Our problem is that we have a once in a generation player in Roo and at 28 turning 29 he has most likely played his best football. We no longer have the 'surprise' element of a tactic and our best players are almost classed as veterans. The only way to add to your list is via the draft and we have finally beefed up our recruiting/player development resources.
It may be a case of too little too late as there are younger and faster teams on the way up as our better players begin to slow down.
The last decade has been full of mixed emotions....I remember when we first started playing at the Dome and with the early round picks filtering through into the team - the expectation, excitement and almost inevitabililty of our rise up the ladder, it was fantastic being on board for the ride of your life....to make and lose 3 prelims and then 3 GF's it is hard to feel any optimism or enthusiasim in the short/medium term.

[Megamaguire]

It seems early to give up on the idea that the team can successfully evolve itself while playing through the year. We could easily be facing the bye 2:1 with essendon equaling our 1 loss. I think enthusiasm and working insync is a bit off.
I hope the players can now forget 2010 and FULLY embrace 2011.
I recall the bulldogs have horror peiods last season yet they gathered themselves to finally confront the Saints in a prelim. Our players can give themselves a chance and still make the finals enthusiasm depending.

Perhaps we'll get Gardy back for a significant contribution and Kosi might surprise us and make it easier for some of the newies to find their feet.

Hang in there Sainters!
GO SAINTS!

[gringo]

I think Terry Wallace is still available and that other guy, Jade Rawlings could job share with Matthew Knights. What about getting Thommo back with his inspirational Russian enema's and Bonnie Doon breaks from the movies....

[borderbarry]

You pessimistic lot. We started 1997 off with a wimper too, but came good in time to end up top of the ladder. I believe we have a better chance of winning the big one this year than we will have for many years to come if we have a bad year.

[SainterK]

What has he done that is so wrong that I'm missing?

It's not like the team fell agonising short two years in a row, both matches had moments that the game could of been won.

Coaches that present their sides with opportunities like that don't come around often.

I'd understand the sentiment if both grand finals yielded results that saw Saints 2 goals behind much of the match, and just out of the contest/s.

However, nobody can deny that both GF's had those moments were it could of been won.

That's probably why it hurts so much for so many.

[plugger66]

I have no problem who rebuilds the side but once that decision is made we are looking at about 6-7 years down the bottom half of the ladder and preferable 2 years on the bottom of the ladder. I think at the most we have this year and at the very best case next year left for any challenges. After that it doesnt matter how many of the young guys get game time, we will struggle and the reasons are simple, our current stars will be retiring, going backwards or at the best stabilising because of age.

We may think get games into young now will mean we will not need a full rebuild but just think about 2013. Hayes retired probably and no young guy now is probably a chance to be like him in 2 years. Milney retired and very hard to replace. Rooy and Fisher past their best. BJ, Dal and Joey past improvement stage and of course Baker, MG, Blake and one or two others also retired. Picks 25 onwards just dont replace those guys no matter how excited we are about these guys. May get one or at the very best 2 good players out of them but that is it.

That is why when we rebuild we need a coach who is ready for a sustained period of ordinary football. Is RL the man, I have no idea but at least we know he can coach.

[SydneySainter]

Been thinking about it today and to be honest, I'm unsure if he is the man to trust for a rebuild.

Firstly, I think the list he inherited from 06 was over-rated. Peckett and Powell retired, Hamill was finished, Goose was cooked, Gehrig, Voss and Thompson had one more year left, Ball never re-created his 05 form, Harvey was there for experience only, no decent ruckman. The difference between the 04 and 06 side was quite vast. So putting that in perspective, Lyon has done a good job with the roster he's had.

As for rebuilding, I definitely think we're on the verge of a rebuilding phase, but to rebuild and play kids for the sake of giving them experience is alien territory for Ross, given his preference for experience, role-players and players who do exactly what they're told and time will tell if he can concede a several seasons with a vision of 2015, or whatever is a realistic target.

What to do with Roo, BJ, Dal and Joey is another interesting one. If we're about to rebuild, they won't be there for the next tilt, unless we do a Collingwood and back to playing finals two seasons later. Will Roo be better off at the Suns? Is BJ too scarred that he needs a fresh start, at the Blues perhaps? These players still carry currency and if our rebuilding phase takes 6 - 7 seasons, the club needs to think about it.

[meher baba]

I like to think that the fire is still burning in Ross' belly.

I think right now it's burning under his backside.

[gringo]

Yeah, give the Blues BJ for their first round pick 16, then maybe get Andrew Walker thrown in why not. Nick could go to the GC for Ablett's shoes, Fisher to Adelaide, Gilbo to GWS, so we can see if he can play kids. That should work well?

[asiu]

i'm a ross supporter to do the job , and do it well

he knows his way around the club , has roos onside

thats a brains trust you wouldn't throw away , without a real good plan , imo

first of all , you gotta have a plan , before you can change it

let the thinkers brainstorm where footys gunna be in two seasons ... then , lets lead the way there.

[hungry for a premiership]

I say stick with Ross till he lands us a flag, which he will.

Just look at his win/loss ratio, for gods sake. It's up there with the best coaches in the history of the game.

[kaos theory]

Yes.

[saintjake]

Yes. for sure.
look at the win loss ratio.
look at what he has done with some of the players who wouldnt be too flash anywhere else.
He has even said maybe its time for the rebuild.
he is the man.
He should coach us uintil he doesnt want to anymore.
one of the best football brains going around.

[joffaboy]

good to see most posters actually reading the Op and understanding that it is NOT a "get rid of the coach" post.

The question was "Is RL the right coach to rebuild a team". thats all. No inference at all, just a question.

Some coaches can win flags, some can rebuild. Pagan could win flags but was pathetic at Carlton with an ordinary team. Blight was good at Geelong and won Adelaide two flags but couldn't put in the yards at the Saints.

Some coaches are good at long term. Bomber Thompson, nurtured and built his team over 6-7 years, then coached them to two flags. Grant Thomas brought along a bunch of kids and by the end of 2003 had them up and about.

As some have mentioned maybe we dont even need a rebuild. If we want to challenge with this current core of Riewoldt, bj, Joey, Lenny and Sam Fisher, 2012/2013 is realistically our only chance (if we rule out this year).

For mine, RL would have to show a willingness to shelve some of his theories to long term rebuild.

Anyway it will be another ride on the Sainters rollercoaster. All aboard once again guys.