Our non existent Forward 50 tackles

[gringo]

Kosi is a much maligned player. When Roo went down everyone thought he should just pick up the slack and kick 10 goals a game because of his access to the ball. Reality is he got double teamed as the go to man. When Kosi goes, Riewoldt looks overwhelmed.

For me the scary thing was how quickly and cleanly the bombers used the ball, as soon as you tackled the ball had already left the player. The fact that they had a whole lot of guys around our CHF line helped them reload and attack. Coupled with their clean hands in their forward line they made us look bad.

[PJ]

Our entry into the forward 50 was extremely lame especially from about mid way through the 2nd Q. Last half was laughable but by then the confidence was shot. Our running players couldn't put it out in front of leading forwards.

I kept wondering who was going to step up and make a stand - didn't seem to come regardless of Lyon's instruction to apply tackles go more one on one. Is this a question of leadership? confidence? game strategy? or all of the above?

I think Kosi is a good in for this reason - hope he plays a good percentage in the ruck - we need an aggressive approach to centre work and clearances. We can't keep putting that much pressure on our backs, the score against Essendon was the highest since 2008. It just kept moving from clearances with speed and ease into their forward 50 giving the backs no chance.

[gringo]

Our mids don't look confident, joey seems to be a bit heavy legged and is just going, same with Dal and BJ no one looks enthusiastic. Maybe Lenny really does get them marshalled. The backs really look under a lot more pressure due to the ease with which it comes through the middle. Gwilt looks fumbly and uncertain and so does Raph. Gilbert looks Rushed. It is not our key backs that are struggling, more the quick movement into the forward line to stop the Saints setting up their press. Collingwood beat teams last year by just peppering at goal and defending the ball coming back out from the kick in. Other teams are doing it now.

[SinCitySaint]

The problem we have as I see it is that invariably when the ball comes into our forward line we have at most 2 forwards in situ. This is usually opposed by 4 or more defenders so our forwards get swamped and the defense get the ball out of our forward 50 with ease.
Remember in 2009 the biggest criticism of our game plan was the way we slowly built from the back and would not take any risks getting the ball into the forward line. This slow build up allowed all our forwards to get into their designated areas in the forward 50 thus when the ball hit the ground we had players there ready to pounce on the player coming out of the forward 50.
It isn't rocket science, Collingwood have stay at home forwards who are supported by a flooding midfield so when the ball goes forward they have two strong marking targets and players at the base of the packs. They have defenders who can play both big and small and who are all very mobile to get the ball moving out of their back half quickly. It is then the job of the midfield to get the ball into their forward 50 as quickly as possible without being overly concerned with forward delivery. That is why Fisher always gets a large number of easy marks across half back against the pies.
This year we are trying to pump the ball in forward fast to be more attacking but for that to work we need to have the players forward of 50 to contest. Watch the game against Richmond the number of times we broke from half back and tried to go long and fast to a forward line that only had Roo in it and three Richmond defenders. Ball goes to ground and they sweep it out. Milne, Stanley etc... were all doing the team thing and had flooded back into defense to make it difficult for the Tiger forwards but when we broke they then struggled to transition back up the ground quick enough to be competitive. That is why we saw Richmond clear from their defense so easily but then struggle getting through the centre square because by then the players rushing back were all in the middle of the ground.

[samoht]

Sincitysaint

Whether we make the finals this year or not - it's still useful to talk about the best team, to see where we can and need to improve.
Just continuing on with what you posted re: the Pies ..,we may need a different game plan.

Collingwood have a very quick, skillful running back line - Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien, Maxwell, Ben Johnson etc.. provide run and rebound and they have the skill to pin-point passes, down the wing etc..

A huge percentage of their rebounds end up with the ball transferring from their backline to half forward successfully without turning the ball over - such is the foot skill of these players and by going around the boundary they render any attempt for the opposition to flood the centre line futile.

So it's useless to try to flood the midfield against them.

The only way to combat this rebound is to nip it at the source - deny their backline players getting the easy rebound in the first place -
which entails denying them space and time.
Our forwards need to be playing within an inch of their opponents - Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien, Maxwell and Johnson at all times, and have a defensive mind set.
We should be chasing, tackling and harassing the living daylights out of them... not allow them to get their usual 100 possessions again, as you can bet that 70 of those rebounds end up at half forward.

[bergholt]

Our forwards need to be playing within an inch of their opponents - Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien, Maxwell and Johnson at all times, and have a defensive mind set.

when do our forwards get the ball and kick goals?

[samoht]

Our forwards need to be playing within an inch of their opponents - Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien, Maxwell and Johnson at all times, and have a defensive mind set.

when do our forwards get the ball and kick goals?

Exactly .. so the least they can do is to deny their direct opponents from getting easy rebounds.

[bergholt]

Our forwards need to be playing within an inch of their opponents - Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien, Maxwell and Johnson at all times, and have a defensive mind set.

when do our forwards get the ball and kick goals?

Exactly .. so the least they can do is to deny their direct opponents from getting easy rebounds.

so who does kick the goals?

[samoht]

Our forwards are ineffective - they don't kick enough goals, but they are also lame at the moment by allowing the easy rebound.

The easy rebound is also hurting us. - as it results in more goals to the opposition.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Can't they at least tackle ?

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I think another part of the problem is our horrible delivery into the forward fifty. If you're just bombing it into your fwd 50 and it's going straight down the throat of opposition defenders then the ball will rebound out twice as fast.

Expanded upon in a little more detail here...

http://www.redwhiteandblack.com.au/2011 ... sure-mojo/

[samoht]

The point is being missed ....

and that is regardless of how many times or how the ball enters our forward 50 - we get rebounded against too easily and allow opposition backlines to collect too many easy possessions.


We entered our forward 50 a paltry 40 times or so on average in each of the Grand Finals.
- nevertheless Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien and Maxwell ended up with about 100 possessions in each game ... that's between 4 defenders.
I haven't even included Ben Johnson's 20 odd possessions.

So we are allowing opposition back lines too much latitude and they are hurting us massively.

Tackles are just an indicator ... we should not give the opposition defenders one inch.

Let's face it ..
We are incapable of kicking a winning score - Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton even Melbourne probably have a wider spread of goal kickers - Collingwood has 13 or so goal kickers a match we don't - so to have any chance of improving we need to restrict the backlines of all teams... especially the skillful teams.

and it's worth repeating - it doesn't relate to how the ball is delivered or how many times it enters our forward 50 - our forwards need to be more defensive when they are not kicking goals, i.e. most of the time.

this is an area we can and must improve in ! ..a nd we should stop looking for excuses re: our forwards lack of pressure.

[SainterK]

The point is being missed ....

and that is regardless of how many times or how the ball enters our forward 50 - we get rebounded against too easily and allow opposition backlines to collect too many easy possessions.


We entered our forward 50 a paltry 40 times or so on average in each of the Grand Finals.
- nevertheless Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien and Maxwell ended up with about 100 possessions in each game ... that's between 4 defenders.
I haven't even included Ben Johnson's 20 odd possessions.

So we are allowing opposition back lines too much latitude and they are hurting us massively.

Tackles are just an indicator ... we should not give the opposition defenders one inch.

Let's face it ..
We are incapable of kicking a winning score - Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton even Melbourne probably have a wider spread of goal kickers - Collingwood has 13 or so goal kickers a match we don't - so to have any chance of improving we need to restrict the backlines of all teams... especially the skillful teams.

and it's worth repeating - it doesn't relate to how the ball is delivered or how many times it enters our forward 50 - our forwards need to be more defensive when they are not kicking goals, i.e. most of the time.

this is an area we can and must improve in ! ..a nd we should stop looking for excuses re: our forwards lack of pressure.

35 times, and 39 times in the grand finals.

This year 52, 51, 48 times thus far.

[samoht]

35 times, and 39 times in the grand finals.

This year 52, 51, 48 times thus far.

Nothing changes if the ball just comes straight back out with interest.

Remember there is no relationship between the number of forward entries (35 and 39 in the 2GFs) and the number of times the opposition back line ends up with the ball and can hurt you (120 opposition back line possessions in each of the GFs - if we count all the 6 backline players).

So we need to stop those 120 backline possessions - restrict them to 60 - 80 maybe and hopefully create a few more turnovers for ourselves and also stop the easy rebound and pin point passes that end up in more opposition goals. that is the challenge for our forwards.
That's an area we can and must improve in !

[gringo]

That is the one positive about getting Mini back. He does man up a rebounding defender and cuts off the kick in. If Schnides can get fit enough he will help and along with Milne will stop the quick rebounding from our F50. He also does tackle.

Those guys really need to steal the ball back with the big guys making some stress for the opposition backs by hovering near goal. We really have missed having our best forward structure in place. No one remembers that we have been without half of our best set up.

[SainterK]

35 times, and 39 times in the grand finals.

This year 52, 51, 48 times thus far.

Nothing changes if the ball just comes straight back out with interest.

Remember there is no relationship between the number of forward entries (35 and 39 in the 2GFs) and the number of times the opposition back line ends up with the ball and can hurt you (120 opposition back line possessions in each of the GFs - if we count all the 6 backline players).

So we need to stop those 120 backline possessions - restrict them to 60 - 80 maybe and hopefully create a few more turnovers for ourselves and also stop the easy rebound and pin point passes that end up in more opposition goals. that is the challenge for our forwards.
That's an area we can and must improve in !

Sure, I don't disagree, just giving you the actual figures.

[bergholt]

50 insides 50s, 5 tackles inside 50 tonight.

almost twice as good as last week!

[dragit]

Attitude must play a big part but… I agree with others that simply being so heavily outnumbered in our fwd line makes it very difficult to keep the ball in and lay tackles.
Our persistence withing kicking to 2&3 on one (Riewoldt) means that if we don't take a spectacular contested mark, there is very little chance of laying a tackle/keeping the ball in there.
Having Stanley and Kosi holding hands down there in the wet can't help much either! Hopefully we won't see that again anytime soon.

[dcstkfc]

50 insides 50s, 5 tackles inside 50 tonight.

almost twice as good as last week!

After all the talk, and in greasy conditions!

Hope Ross rips shreds off the forwards for this. Never would have got away with it Under Tudor. Berbakov is the new forward coach if I'm not mistaken. Or is it Kingsley?