Use of the sub....

[borderbarry]

I dont want to get rid of Lyon, he is our coach and he is doing a good job mostly. I believe that he is bringing the team into their best form in time for the finals. Be a shame if we dont make it.
However I am not happy with his use of the Sub, for one. He left it far to late to bring Raph on. The idea of the sub is to help freshen the players with use of the bench, but it is useless if the sub is not used until middle of the last quarter. Maybe he should pass on the responsibility of the sub to one of the assistant coaches.

[DWOODROW]

I dont want to get rid of Lyon, he is our coach and he is doing a good job mostly. I believe that he is bringing the team into their best form in time for the finals. Be a shame if we dont make it.
However I am not happy with his use of the Sub, for one. He left it far to late to bring Raph on. The idea of the sub is to help freshen the players with use of the bench, but it is useless if the sub is not used until middle of the last quarter. Maybe he should pass on the responsibility of the sub to one of the assistant coaches.

Who would you choose to take on that role???

I watched on telly last night and a few times they showed what was going on in the box.

Looked a little disorganised and heated in their a few times.

Maybe thats whats happening with St kilda, The things that were done second nature to the assistant coaches we have had in the last two years isn't being done now.

[SainterK]

Maybe it came down to matchups, our defenders certainly had the better of their opponents.

I think the sub firstly. is there for injuries isn't it?

[Thinline]

Reeked a little of afterthought, but perhaps the thinking's better twenty mins without injury than a quarter and a half one down...

[perfectionist]

I presume the idea was to use Tom Ledger who would give a bit of pace and run. Once he pulled out, the choice was between Raph and Steven Baker - not too much pace and run there. So, we have to rely on what was on the ground and sub Tom Lynch. The ideal sub would be someone like Brendon Goddard who could cover almost all eventualities. It would be nice to see a Saints team where someone like Brendon was the sub. Would be a good show for the flag. Can't see it in the next year or two.

[meher baba]

Gee you blokes are picky!!

If i were coaching in a tight, close game, I would always leave the 21 guys doing the job on the park as long as possible. Barring injury, I would only make early use of the sub when we are behind and looking to come back, or when the result is already a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

Raph was the best available option to be sub and Lyon brought Raph on at the exact point when we looked like being permanently trapped in defence. And he made quite an impact in terms of giving us back some forward thrust.

So all good AFAIC.

[Sobraz]

It would be nice to see a Saints team where someone like Brendon was the sub. Would be a good show for the flag.

So you'd limit arguably one of the best players in the league, to a half of footy at most, because he is so versatile??...

If we had more like Brendon, the sub would be of even less consequence...

[Rosco]

It would be nice to see a Saints team where someone like Brendon was the sub. Would be a good show for the flag.

So you'd limit arguably one of the best players in the league, to a half of footy at most, because he is so versatile??...

If we had more like Brendon, the sub would be of even less consequence...

i think the point was that if we could afford to have somone like BJ as the sub then the team would have to be pretty bloody good.

[St Chris]

Are we wasting the sub by using on a bloke who can run around half back without an opponent for most of the time??

I think we should always have someone as a sub who can run through the centre, or add another dimension inside 50, neither or which Raph Clarke can do.

This is not a Raph bashing post, I still think he's in our best 22. But he is being wasted, as is the sub as a tactical advantage.

[Jacks Back]

The sub is in fact a 19th man (or in this case a 22nd man). It really is only for injury. If you want to role the dice and bring him on early then don't moan and crap on (as McKenna did for GC) if someone gets injured later in the game only to have a fit player sitting on the sidelines.

meher baba has got it right. If we are behind and need some run then bring him on. If the boys are doing the job then stuff him (unless we're far enough in front to give the 22nd man a go).

Was it Bingham who didn't come on in the 66 grand final? They're there in case of emergency - Break glass or change vests.

[joffaboy]

In one way Raph is the perfect sub.

He seems to dominate or play exceptional;ly well at VFL level, where he can have that extra second for decision making, but seems to be just a fraction slow in decision making when it comes to AFL football.

So if he comes on when everyone is buggered his decision making slowness is not as prevelant and he looks more like the VFL Raph than the AFL Raph.

Well, it makes sense to me

[borderbarry]

Jason Blake would make a good sub, with his versatility.

[Junction Oval]

With the new 3 man bench, the game clearly slows down in the last quarter, as players tire quite a lot. A sub that can run and break the lines is what is needed IMO. Raph did just that.

Blake offers more of a "ruck" option, but is that of more value than "run."

Whether it is half way through the third quarter on the full last quarter, shouldn't make a huge difference.

[mr six o'clock]

Robert Harvey would be the perfect sub , He still looks capable of playing , He'd be great for a least 1/4 going flat out . If subbed on earlier you'd know he'd be competative . maybe we can get him on the rookie list !
( I know im delusional however ) we need someone you can come on and have an impact !!!! , raphs not that type of player , and unfortunately its only the young kids who look to have any excitement about them when they come into the team

[perfectionist]

...Was it Bingham who didn't come on in the 66 grand final? ....

Nope, Kevin Billing. Lawrence Bingham wasn't even born in 1966. After coming across from Hawthorn, he played 22 games for the Saints in '92 and '93.

Kevin Billing was lucky and yet unlucky. He played 27 games for the Saints over 7 years - hardly a regular. After having played just 5 games in '66, and neither of the other two finals, he was made 19th man. That was a big piece of luck. He was unlucky not to get a run, and would have if we had won by ten goals. In those days, if you didn't get on the ground, it was as though you had never played. It was only subsequently that he (and others in his position) were regarded as having played and, therefore, a premiership player.

[Old Mate]

...

If i were coaching in a tight, close game, I would always leave the 21 guys doing the job on the park as long as possible. Barring injury, I would only make early use of the sub when we are behind and looking to come back, or when the result is already a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

...

That's being to reactive imo. We scored 1 solitary point from mid way through the 3rd term. I think the sub should have been used at 3 quarter time a or nearing the end of the 3rd.

[ando051]

Some teams use the sub as a tactical move. Ross uses it as a back up, if a player gets injured. I agree with Joe Blake being the perfect sub for backing up Forward, Ruck or Back.

With our current list i think Raph is the perfect choice, if not maybe Mini Mc or Tommy Walsh. These type of players used to be called "Utility" on the footy cards in the 80's. Jack of all trade master of none .

[meher baba]

...

If i were coaching in a tight, close game, I would always leave the 21 guys doing the job on the park as long as possible. Barring injury, I would only make early use of the sub when we are behind and looking to come back, or when the result is already a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

...

That's being to reactive imo. We scored 1 solitary point from mid way through the 3rd term. I think the sub should have been used at 3 quarter time a or nearing the end of the 3rd.

An arm wrestle is an arm wrestle: you have to hold your nerve and don't change anything until you have no choice. A substitute might make a couple of crucial errors while they pick up the pace of the game. Or you migh make your substitution and then lose a key player to injury while you have an ok one sitting on the bench who you can't use. You might want to take that sort of risk, but a professional coach won't.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I think someone with more speed is more effective as a sub.

We were struggling to find clear options out of defence in the last term - I think someone with some speed would have been able to stretch North's tiring bodies a bit more.

But Raph is perhaps a safer choice as he can be used in a few different roles.

[Old Mate]

...

If i were coaching in a tight, close game, I would always leave the 21 guys doing the job on the park as long as possible. Barring injury, I would only make early use of the sub when we are behind and looking to come back, or when the result is already a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

...

That's being to reactive imo. We scored 1 solitary point from mid way through the 3rd term. I think the sub should have been used at 3 quarter time a or nearing the end of the 3rd.

An arm wrestle is an arm wrestle: you have to hold your nerve and don't change anything until you have no choice. A substitute might make a couple of crucial errors while they pick up the pace of the game. Or you migh make your substitution and then lose a key player to injury while you have an ok one sitting on the bench who you can't use. You might want to take that sort of risk, but a professional coach won't.

Nah mate Ross went against the grain by playing the sub midway through the last. Teams have activated the sub close to 3 quarter time or at 3 quarter time in most cases (including Ross). Looks like he was going with something different. If he does the same this week then it may tell us if it worked.

[The Fireman]

Didn't really work for the Japs.

[Dr Spaceman]

Didn't really work for the Japs.

But they were using Mini Subs!

We tried a Mini Sub against the Lions.

Didn't really work for us either

[Old Mate]

Didn't really work for the Japs.

Gold

[The Fireman]

Didn't really work for the Japs.

But they were using Mini Subs!

We tried a Mini Sub against the Lions.

Didn't really work for us either

Nice

[St Ick]

I instigated the last 'Clarke shouldn't have been sub' thread. Still agree with those initial thoughts.

Twice now in recent weeks has he subbed off someone who is playing well. Gamble should have been sub before Tom Lynch who'd kicked a couple and looked good - a lot better than the fumbling Gamble. The other week Simpkin played well and was subbed too.

Its as though its just a pre conceived plan to sub a certain player and its not a decision based on the actual game itself.